Swillybegs

[Colonel]

 It's been a while, but Swillybegs is back in the frame over the next few weeks, with a late invite to the Chatham Show in under two weeks time, then Hornby/Margate on 15/15 August, the latter alongside their full size collection. So,  have recently been working on the layout and stock to get things ready.

 Fingers crossed, everything seems ok, but note my last entry, back at the end of January! 

 Otherwise, it has mostly about integrating the newest item of stock, Donegal Railcar 8, into proceedings. Turned out to be a tale of two controllers at the moment. My go to has always been a Gaugemaster hand held, feedback model [the black one], with the Model W as standby. However, some motors, especially coreless ones, don't like the feedback model. The result is what might best be described as 'cogging' - hesitant running, almost as if there's a pick up astray somewhere. The Model W, being simpler, doesn't give such problems, but the payback is not such fine control. 

 Anyway, whatever motor is in Railcar 8's bogie, it certainly doesn't like the feedback controller and though  things are smoother with the W, they are very 'two speed'. The model crawls along up to about 'notch 5', then suddenly bursts into life. I must have had the W for 30 years, so I've ordered a new one. Yes, I know they come with a lifetime guarantee, but time is tight. The alternative is to run Railcar 8  in reverse, where, for whatever reason, the cogging effect is less. So, shades of Skibbereen, where trains arrived in the headhunt, before reversing into the platform, then likewise reversing out after turning. 

 Have also added a bit of detailing to No8 in the form of luggage, both on the roof and inside - the latter being white metal to give a bit more weight over the motor bogie. The train is deemed to be running on the North Donegal Tramway & hence uses the front platform, so at the moment, the two ex Clogher tanks will act as spare engines.

 

[Colonel]

My new Model W arrived today and seems to have solved the problem, so guess that will be my 'go to' controller from now on - at least for Swillybegs. The feedback unit works well enough with my Northport Quay stock. The W is still needed for the mobile crane and as back up for the broad gauge of course.

[Galteemore]

That railcar looks terrific 

[Broadstone]

Following our email exchange I have read through about Swillybegs - it is absolutely brilliant David, well done! Its obviously given you a lot of pleasure and is an awesome achievement. The Donegal lines really were amazing railways and in your engines and stock you have captured their unique beauty. I hope to see it an exhibition one of these days, but for now, your pictures are keeping me going.

[DLTaylor]

Lovely stuff David, I've just had a good catch-up, thank you for sharing it with us.

The Swilly stock looks terrific, my initial thought was that the bigger stuff might dwarf the layout, but not at all.  Unless a certain 4-8-0 appears???

Interesting about the Gaugemaster Feedback controller.  I found much the same, and now use the standard "W" type exclusively, with ALL types of motors.

All the best, Dave.T

[jhb171achill]

Swillyish pic of Senior's - no idea where, 1940.

Edited Wednesday at 16:12 by jhb171achill

[Irishswissernie]

Letterkenny.

[airfixfan]

1 hour ago, Irishswissernie said:

Letterkenny.

The decrepit carriage shed is the tell tale sign

[Colonel]

14 hours ago, DLTaylor said:

Lovely stuff David, I've just had a good catch-up, thank you for sharing it with us.

The Swilly stock looks terrific, my initial thought was that the bigger stuff might dwarf the layout, but not at all.  Unless a certain 4-8-0 appears???

Interesting about the Gaugemaster Feedback controller.  I found much the same, and now use the standard "W" type exclusively, with ALL types of motors.

All the best, Dave.T

No 4-8-0, or indeed 4-8-4T David. They will neither fit the headshunt, nor the turntable. The new W controller has proved disappointing though, as it has the same issues as the old one: VERY slow up to notch 8, then full speed after that.  Given I use a Gaugemaster transformer, no idea what the problem might be, but they will have to go back after the show.

[Colonel]

 Can't quite believe I'm writing this, but when setting up Swillybegs at the Chatham Show today, found that all three of my controllers are now useless! The two Ws as previously reported, but now the Feedback unit has a problem with a loose wire, inside the casing, which I can't access.

 So, what to do? Then I remembered the Morely controller we use on the Club 0 gauge layout. So, cut the two 12v wires from the back of the Gaugemaster socket and joined them to the !2v output from the Morely. This unit has the provision for a handheld unit and this is what I'm now using over the weekend. It has no feedback feature, so works well with all motors. Fingers crossed.

Wish me luck - there will be a bit of rewiring needed before the layout goes out again in August...

 

[Irishswissernie]

Fingers crossed for you!! Brings back memories from the 1980's which is a bit worrying because I can't remember much from last week!

[Tullygrainey]

That is beyond bad luck David. That’s a malignant force at work! All the best for the show

[Colonel]

It gets worse, Alan. The Morely controller just isn't up to the fine control needed on a small layout. As a result, it was impossible to do any shunting because I couldn't run trains slowly enough to stop over the uncoupling magnets.

 So the two railcars had to do the bulk of the work, with the two Swilly tanks just about managing their trains, but having to run much too quickly for my liking.

 Spent the second half of the day trying to work out what combinations might work best for Sunday, while also had to bring home several wagons and coaches to repair the DG couplings.

 I've done well over 100 shows and today was by some distance the most challenging and disappointing I've ever experienced.

:-( :-( :-[ 

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry to hear that.

seems really odd that several controllers are all giving problems that you haven’t had before.

Is it possible there’s a gremlin in the layout wiring - something other than the controllers? Maybe a connection has gone high resistance through corrosion?

Have you got a loose piece of track you could test on to rule that out? 

[Tullygrainey]

Oh dear, what a day. Demoralising to put it mildly. Hope tomorrow brings some improvement. Hang in there.

[Colonel]

The feedback and W are both old and it is a loose wire inside the former that is the problem. Seems Ws are prone to the issue I have, but you don't expect it on a new one..

 Another option possible for today, but if not I hope we can muddle through.

[Colonel]

A fellow club member provided a third Gaugemaster W on Sunday, which worked without problems all day, so am hoping there are no hidden issues in the wiring. Perhaps the lurking of my 40 year old H&M Clipper as the the final option prevented further mischief!I

 Nevertheless, getting through five different controllers over a two day show is a worry and reflecting on the experience makes you realise that options are fairly limited for an analogue layout, especially if you want a handheld one.

 Gaugemaster do the two I've already got, while Morley do a hand held one to go with their cased units. However, there is just not enough fine control in the latter for a small shunting layout and though better, the W also lacks the finesse of the feedback unit. The much missed Pentroller is only available second hand and even then is rare, because it is probably the best and folk rightly hang on to them.

 The only alternatives seem to be DCC (been there, tried it, not for me) or maybe the latest analogue versions of that like the Gaugemaster Infinity. However, at over £360, not something to be taken lightly.

 Thoughts anyone?

[irishthump]

1 hour ago, Colonel said:

A fellow club member provided a third Gaugemaster W on Sunday, which worked without problems all day, so am hoping there are no hidden issues in the wiring. Perhaps the lurking of my 40 year old H&M Clipper as the the final option prevented further mischief!I

 Nevertheless, getting through five different controllers over a two day show is a worry and reflecting on the experience makes you realise that options are fairly limited for an analogue layout, especially if you want a handheld one.

 Gaugemaster do the two I've already got, while Morley do a hand held one to go with their cased units. However, there is just not enough fine control in the latter for a small shunting layout and though better, the W also lacks the finesse of the feedback unit. The much missed Pentroller is only available second hand and even then is rare, because it is probably the best and folk rightly hang on to them.

 The only alternatives seem to be DCC (been there, tried it, not for me) or maybe the latest analogue versions of that like the Gaugemaster Infinity. However, at over £360, not something to be taken lightly.

 Thoughts anyone?

I know you say you've already tried DCC but to be honest it's the best option. It will provide the slow control you require while also having the advantage of simplified wiring for the layout.

In many cases a good DCC controller is just as expensive as the high end DC ones, but bargains can be got on smaller systems which would suit a small shunting layout.

[leslie10646]

Commiserations, David, on what must have been a very trying few days. I hope that a solution comes up.

You mentioned your 40 year old H&M Clipper. I still use my SIXTY year old H&M Powermaster with its sliding rheostat taped off (I think I simply lost the knob!) to run either G scale or Rosses Bay.

DCC can be a pain, but generally it has worked quite well on Portadown Jct. I wish I could successfully work the Factory reset on my Digitrax! When things go haywire, I take the old-fashioned computer man's solution and switch everything off and on again!

Good luck - you deserve it.

 

[Mayner]

I found converting to DCC is simple enough for modern rtr but problematic with scratch or kit built locos.  Basically I struggled to get kit built locos (typically Mashima motor 2 stage gearing) to run reliably when converted to DCC but ran fine before hand on DC and after I removed the decoder.

For the moment my kit built Irish 4mm narrow and broad gauge steam locos (when I occasionally run them) are controlled by analogue hand held controllers, one a home built unit assembled as part of a model railway club project about 25 years ago, a second a Gaugemaster W the replacement of a W that gave up the ghost a year or so ago.

For many years the controllers were powered by the 15V a/c output off an early 70s Safety Minor, I bought a couple of replacement modern plug/top power units about 6 months ago but just haven't got round to using them!

Built in obsolescence is a major issue with DCC, like Leslie I have a digitrax system starting with a medium level starter set gradually expanded with additional throttles (controllers) and radio control operation 10-15 years ago, at this stage obsolete and no-longer supported.

 

[murrayec]

@Colonel I agree with irishthump, you would only need a starter DCC controller for your layout. There are plenty about for around 70 to 150 pounds second hand or new.

I use the Roco Multimaus which would be fine for starting off, easy to use, then later as you get to grips with DCC you could upgrade....

Also, I recommend this book by Crowood Publishing, it is a great introduction to all aspects of DCC. It covers setting up the layout, discusses the types of controllers and chips, and gives plenty of examples of converting locos to DCC with loads of photos;-

Eoin.

Edited 7 hours ago by murrayec

[Tullygrainey]

Glad to hear you managed a fairly trouble free second day David but appreciate your concerns about the future. In my experience DCC sometimes seems less tolerant than DC and like John, I've built locos which ran ok on DC but less well when the DCC chip was installed.

Having said that, the problems have usually been ironed out after a bit of messing around with the Control variables (CVs) This needn't be as complicated as some descriptions imply. A loco that seems reluctant to get going just needs its starting voltage increased and one that seems to take a lifetime to get up speed needs another adjustment to the acceleration curve. Changing the values of two or three CVs can usually sort this and there's always the option of a factory reset if it all goes belly up. To be honest, despite all the elaborate settings offered in some chips, I've rarely gone beyond these basics and haven't felt the need to. 

Going DCC does of course involve adding decoders to all the locos and given our propensity for building our own, it can be a tricky job - no nice socket to plug the chip into unless we fit one ourselves but either way, there's soldering involved and the challenge of finding somewhere to stow the things. One weakness of DCC equipped locos is that they are susceptible to any break in supply. A DC loco can often plough on over a bit of dodgy track where a DDC one will stop dead. Adding 'Stay-Alive'  modules to the wiring is the standard solution. More space needed. Have to say, I envy the room you 7mm folk have at your disposal 

Whilst it seems that these things are an extra level of hassle, the advantage is that they do give you more control over how locos perform and each one can have its own optimum settings - getting round the problem of using a DC controller which works ok with some locos but not with others.

I might be mistaken but I don't think your exhibition layouts make much use of section switches so the oft quoted simplification of wiring may not be of any great advantage.

You mentioned the Gaugemaster Infinity system above. I don't know what the DC version is like but I bought the DCC version to use with Kilmore. The main advantage is the Bluetooth wireless feature which allows us to roam around at exhibitions. So far it's worked well but setting it up in the first instance wasn't particularly intuitive - installing locos into the system's library was a pain. Could be that this is a DCC problem and the DC version may be more straightforward. I'd recommend getting hold of Gaugemaster's instruction leaflet to see how it feels to you. And yes, I thought it was expensive too!

Decisions, decisions! If you can find a reliable DC controller that meets your needs I would stick with DC, if only because it's less hassle and considerably cheaper. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Alan

 

 

[DSERetc]

Hello David,

Regarding the Guagemaster controllers.  I was using a Guagemaster DC controller for over twenty years to run an O gauge garden layout from a cabin (Shelter).   Then I discovered it only delivering about 3v instead of 12v. Guagemaster in their advertising stated that their controllers had a 'Llfetime Guarantee', so I took a chance and sent them the defective controller.  They repaired it free of charge and did not even charge postage.    This was before Brexit.  I wonder if cutting the wires would 'Void the Warranty;? 

DSERetc

[Colonel]

Thanks folks! I have a Gaugemaster Prodigy DCC, but don't really like it for various reasons, including those outlined above. Things like the extra cost of chips, pain of fitting and tuning them and the need for careful insulation in metal bodies locos. Plus all my layouts are 'one engine in steam' and I'm not fond of sound or lighting, so really have little use for what dcc offers...

 All my locos, broad, narrow and standard gauge work well with the Gaugemaster HH feedback unit (including Richard Chown's Shannon, which has an RG4 motor) and slow running is noticeably better than the W unit.

 So, all was fine until I built Donegal Railcar 8, which has a small cordless motor which really doesn't like feedback and hence the change to a W. Shame I needed three goes before finding one that worked!

 Have read up all I can find on the Infinity analogue controller and, for me, can't find it does anything to justify its £360 price tag. That is not to say it is not ideal for others.

 Scouring the Web, there is a new version of the Pentroller, called the Pictroller, which is able to recognise cordless motors and adapt. At £85, the cost seems reasonable, but is currently out of stock...

 The fates seem to be pointing me back to the HH and buying a new backup is feeling like the way to go, except it is also showing out of stock at the moment! If only that wire on the HH hadn't come loose, I would have been spared a lot of grief over the weekend and looks like I need to resign myself to either swapping controllers when running Railcar 8, or find a new motorbogie for it with a non-coreless motor.

[Northroader]

Sorry to hear of trouble at t’Exhibition, it must have been a strain when you wanting to put on a good showing. I’m just again DCC on the extra cost grounds, as I like to go for discount or pre-used on ordinary DC in any case. Just watching a DCC steamer in action, i worry how many DCC steamers dont synchronise the chuffs with the wheel rotation. Then looking at the chat I get baffled by the technicalities.

This cheap skating has led me to purchase old controllers off bring and buy stalls, not recommended, so I’ve splashed out on a Gaugemaster Combi, which does well enough, so I’ve got two now. They’re intended for 4mm use, I gather, but my Gauge 0 is all quite limited in size and power with Mashima or Dapol motors, and these do quite well on the Combi.

The one snag is they have a power knob, and a forward/ reverse switch, and I prefer just a centre off knob, combining both functions, as it’s all shunt moves, and I’m unable to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Edited 1 hour ago by Northroader