IRM Latest! The High Queens of Ireland - IRM Celebrates 10th Birthday With GSR 800s

[Horsetan]

27 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

... when important VIP trains needed run in the 40s they were front and centre.

Papal representative visits were probably VVIP ones. There should be some aftermarket Papal headboards and flags and things available.

"That's what I like about Catholicism - it's so vague, and no-one really knows how it works...."

[LNERW1]

wrong topic, deleted.

Edited March 12 by LNERW1

[Westcorkrailway]

Interesting one spotted on RMweb

Just look at it compared to the manor!

[Flying Snail]

23 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Interesting one spotted on RMweb

 

Just look at it compared to the manor!

That's an absolute unit!

[Flying Snail]

23 hours ago, Colin R said:

It just occurred to me that I should have asked if the Queens will convert to 21mm Gauge?

Returning to the question of whether the 800s can be converted to 21mm gauge. Paul Isles had this to say about it over on RMWeb .....

"The design is 21mm friendly, in that that all the bodywork, frames, valve chests etc are scaled to the prototype, and with the wheel sets being 00, there is room to 'expand'. The con rods etc have been spaced out from the wheels in an effort to maintain the look of the prototype, while ensuring that they operate reliably, but this will be subject to further testing. The EP that was running at Malahide was the very first example provided by the factory, and has been updated since (although the updated version is with ESU for PCB design).

HOWEVER, Finescale 21mm modelling is even more of a niche in Ireland than it is in the UK, so any 21mm friendly attributes are there purely to give the right appearance to the locomotive, rather than to directly accommodate 21mm modelling. If that's your 'thing' then I will wish you luck, and look forward to seeing what you do with the model."

 

Edited March 13 by Flying Snail

[jhb171achill]

An excellent and practical way to approach this issue!

And - I’m late to the party on this, but fer gawwwds sake, these yokes are NOT “queens”, nor are they “goddesses”!

They are three separate things. For anyone interested, Mr Google provides chapter and verse…..!

[Galteemore]

8 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

Returning to the question of whether the 800s can be converted to 21mm gauge. Paul Isles had this to say about over on RMWeb .....

"The design is 21mm friendly, in that that all the bodywork, frames, valve chests etc are scaled to the prototype, and with the wheel sets being 00, there is room to 'expand'. The con rods etc have been spaced out from the wheels in an effort to maintain the look of the prototype, while ensuring that they operate reliably, but this will be subject to further testing. The EP that was running at Malahide was the very first example provided by the factory, and has been updated since (although the updated version is with ESU for PCB design).

HOWEVER, Finescale 21mm modelling is even more of a niche in Ireland than it is in the UK, so any 21mm friendly attributes are there purely to give the right appearance to the locomotive, rather than to directly accommodate 21mm modelling. If that's your 'thing' then I will wish you luck, and look forward to seeing what you do with the model."

 

Having retrofitted a 32mm model to 36.75, I wouldn’t do it again. And that was a single wheeler with no valve gear to worry about! The advice above sounds like a polite disclaimer on the same lines!
 

 I know that @Horsetan is building the SSM one to 21mm. Might you be kind enough, Ivan, to provide some pics of what you’re up to, so that people can see what’s involved? If you are new to kit building, don’t start with an 800, but it will at least give an idea of what such a kit involves and what (challenges and rewards 21mm (and 5’3 modelling in general)  poses.

Edited March 13 by Galteemore

[Mayner]

13 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Surprising they didn't name them Jesus, Mary and Joseph, or after a few 'wholesome' Irish saints instead of after pagan women!

Apart from the GS pr dept and railway nuts, was there much fanfare at their launch nationally?

Probably ok so long as the names were in Gaelic, like the Taylor and Ansty the Moral Panic was only likely to set in once translated into English. 

Imagine the Archbishop of Dublin naming Edgar Bredin from the pulpit and turning up at Inchacore demanding the burning of the nameplates.

I suppose James Joyces big mistakes was to publish Ulysses in English, no one would have read or understood a Gaelic version apart from a handful of academics and a few native speakers.

Edited March 13 by Mayner

[murphaph]

I suspect these beauties will lure a few GB modellers into our world. Maybe not a bad idea at all to start big like this rather than doing something more common as a first steam loco. 

[Westcorkrailway]

Just now, murphaph said:

I suspect these beauties will lure a few GB modellers into our world. Maybe not a bad idea at all to start big like this rather than doing something more common as a first steam loco. 

I would beleive the same. Think when the decorated samples come out, a fair few may be convinced. GB modellers are more used to the bigger steam locos and as far as I can make out, prefer them.

[Niles]

13 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I would beleive the same. Think when the decorated samples come out, a fair few may be convinced. GB modellers are more used to the bigger steam locos and as far as I can make out, prefer them.

Agreed.

I don't think being able to remember them will have as much an impact for locos of this stature. 
I mean, how many of us ran big Hornby British steam locos without any memory of seeing them in the flesh? 

It would be different if it were say, an ex-DSER J1 or something like that (I'd still buy one!).

[Westcorkrailway]

8 minutes ago, Niles said:

Agreed.

I don't think being able to remember them will have as much an impact for locos of this stature. 
I mean, how many of us ran big Hornby British steam locos without any memory of seeing them in the flesh? 

I don’t remember 141s in service, 121s in service, A class in service, C class in service, 90 in service. And yet i have a model of each of them. The only model i have that would be part of my childhood is the Ruston 88ds! 

[Warbonnet]

Hi everyone,

Thanks to all of you for your interest and orders! Response has been beyond our expectations and the order book is looking healthy already! 

We reckon some of these may well be sold out before delivery, so make sure you get your pre-order in soon to avoid missing out.

Cheers!

Fran 

[minister_for_hardship]

2 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I don’t remember 141s in service, 121s in service, A class in service, C class in service, 90 in service. And yet i have a model of each of them. The only model i have that would be part of my childhood is the Ruston 88ds! 

Era 1 models (Rocket and similar pioneering teakettles no one alive for over a century remembers) are getting popular right now.

[minister_for_hardship]

3 hours ago, Mayner said:

Probably ok so long as the names were in Gaelic, like the Taylor and Ansty the Moral Panic was only likely to set in once translated into English. 

Imagine the Archbishop of Dublin naming Edgar Bredin from the pulpit and turning up at Inchacore demanding the burning of the nameplates.

I suppose James Joyces big mistakes was to publish Ulysses in English, no one would have read or understood a Gaelic version apart from a handful of academics and a few native speakers.

Different culture wrt railways here too, loco designers being quite the rockstars in GB, small boys with spotters books etc.

Here a new loco was just another lump of steel to take you to the fair or to the port for the emigrant ship. No one cared much if it carried a name or even what it looked like, provided it maintained the advertised schedule.

Edited March 13 by minister_for_hardship

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Era 1 models (Rocket and similar pioneering teakettles no one alive for over a century remembers) are getting popular right now.

Well there's a Bury 2-2-2 to consider, and the Atmospheric? Modelling the D&KR might would reduce the track gauge controversy.

That's an advantage of the Lartigue too...

[Patrick Davey]

5 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi everyone,

Thanks to all of you for your interest and orders! Response has been beyond our expectations and the order book is looking healthy already! 

We reckon some of these may well be sold out before delivery, so make sure you get your pre-order in soon to avoid missing out.

Cheers!

Fran 

Told ya steam was the way to go!!!!

Love the history file on the AS website, great stuff!

Edited March 13 by Patrick Davey

[Weshty]

On 12/3/2025 at 3:51 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Incidentally, on the topic of SSM, the front page of their website isn't working for me:

http://www.studio-scale-models.com

For the sub-pages like the coaches the web pages do work...

http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Coaches.shtml

... but the only Bredin coach listed is the mail van (which looks nice, but was unique).

Was there a wider range available in the past?

Hi all,

I have got the website issues sorted, just some small adjustments to be made.  Thanks for the help all.

Yes, I have a range of Bredins (3rd and composite) and and can look at relaunching them, but may have to do a minimum purchase pack to make it work.   Let me know if that is of interest.

Regards

Des

[Horsetan]

On 12/3/2025 at 3:51 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Incidentally, on the topic of SSM, the front page of their website isn't working for me:

http://www.studio-scale-models.com

For the sub-pages like the coaches the web pages do work...

http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Coaches.shtml

... but the only Bredin coach listed is the mail van (which looks nice, but was unique).

Was there a wider range available in the past?

I'm just after e-mailing @Weshty about the website problem. He reports he has fixed it.

Now, here's the thing: the SSM Bredin coach kits have been discontinued due to lack of demand, but Des says he might bring them back if there is enough interest. I have put my name down for a kit to represent the RPSI's example, but I suspect I'm in for a very long wait....

26 minutes ago, Weshty said:

Hi all,

I have got the website issues sorted, just some small adjustments to be made.  Thanks for the help all.

Yes, I have a range of Bredins (3rd and composite) and and can look at relaunching them, but may have to do a minimum purchase pack to make it work.   Let me know if that is of interest.

Regards

Des

I'm just after e-mailing you to put my name down for a Bredin 3rd.

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I'm just after e-mailing @Weshty about the website problem. He reports he has fixed it.

Now, here's the thing: the SSM Bredin coach kits have been discontinued due to lack of demand, but Des says he might bring them back if there is enough interest. I have put my name down for a kit to represent the RPSI's example, but I suspect I'm in for a very long wait....

I'm just after e-mailing you to put my name down for a Bredin 3rd.

Do you know the type or number series of the Bredin kits? I haven’t got my books in front of me but I recall there were 3 batches with different characteristics. I think the first and third batches were gangwayed but had different cross-sections, while the middle batch were (originally) non-gangwayed suburban stock. 

[Horsetan]

11 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Do you know the type or number series of the Bredin kits? I haven’t got my books in front of me but I recall there were 3 batches with different characteristics. I think the first and third batches were gangwayed but had different cross-sections, while the middle batch were (originally) non-gangwayed suburban stock. 

The SSM Bredins were not the suburban variant.

[Mol_PMB]

Ah yes, here we are:

https://www.studio-scale-models.com/Bredin3rd.shtml

https://www.studio-scale-models.com/Bredincomp.shtml

They look good! 
 

 

 

[Flying Snail]

55 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Ah yes, here we are:

https://www.studio-scale-models.com/Bredin3rd.shtml
 

https://www.studio-scale-models.com/Bredincomp.shtml
 

They look good! 
 

 

 

They do indeed, thanks for sharing! I've just sent @Weshty an email expressing interest.

[Colin R]

I see two issues here?

1 Just how many does Des need to order

2 How many different types are there

[Horsetan]

8 minutes ago, Colin R said:

I see two issues here?

1 Just how many does Des need to order

2 How many different types are there

Des says there were three kits: composite, all-3rd, and brake.

My guess, and it's just a guess, is he'd need between 6 and 10 firm orders - as a minimum - for each type to be viable.

[enniscorthyman]

Happy Birthday  IRM.Its hard to believe  10 years already.Thanks for all the great models.Just ordered 800 in flying snail livery.

[Westcorkrailway]

 

The 800 class won this poll by 47-16. By no means definitive, but interesting none the less 

[Mol_PMB]

On 13/3/2025 at 4:58 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Do you know the type or number series of the Bredin kits? I haven’t got my books in front of me but I recall there were 3 batches with different characteristics. I think the first and third batches were gangwayed but had different cross-sections, while the middle batch were (originally) non-gangwayed suburban stock. 

I now have my references in front of me so I'll just summarise what the kits represent.

In 1935 the GSR built a series of gangwayed main-line coaches, with a 60'0" length over the body, and 9'0" width over the body. The upper body sides were vertical with a gentle curve below the waist to a width of 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body. This group included the following coaches which I think are those represented by the SSM kits Edit: the SSM kits represent the luggage van from this series, but the third and composite from the 1937 batch (see below):

• 8 corridor thirds 1323-1330
• 2 corridor composites 2114-2115
• 1 brake/luggage 2548
• 1 corridor first 1144 

In 1949-1951, composite 2115 was reclassified as a first.

1327 was preserved but I don't think it now exists.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

Here's composite 2114 in CIE livery in the 1950s:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343

They lasted in passenger service until the early 1970s. For example, 2115 was converted to brake/luggage van 2559 in 1971 and survived another decade or so, while 1335 was withdrawn in 1973.

 

The GSR built a second series of gangwayed main-line coaches in 1937. These were also 60'0" length over the body, but the body profile was different. They retained the 9'0" width at cantrail height and 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body, but the width at the waist was increased to 9'6". This meant that the upper sides were noticeably inclined with a more significant curve on the lower sides. 

• 4 corridor thirds 1335-1338
• 4 corridor composites 2120-2123

Apart from the body profile, these carriages were virtually identical to the 1935 batch. 

Edit: It should therefore be possible to modify the SSM kit to represent the earlier ones by reshaping the end profiles.

Here's third 1338:

And one of the composites here (in the background):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508777481

2120/1 were converted to brake/luggage vans 2560/1 in 1971 and survived another decade or so; the others were withdrawn in the early 1970s.

1335 was preserved and still exists:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508127442/

 

The first carriages built by CIE in 1951 were a batch of 6 composites numbered 2124-2129. These were closely based on their GSR predecessors, but had a welded truss underframe. The body profile reverted to having vertical upper sides, but now at 9'6" width. The window styling was also different, with raised aluminium frames. A possible kitbash from the SSM model, but these would be more work. There's a nice photo of one of these on page 43 of the book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages'.

After that, CIE adopted a 61'6" length and this also influenced the layout of the coaches, for example the composites had 4 first and 3 third compartments, rather than the 3 first and 4 third on the shorter 60'0" underframe.

Edited March 15 by Mol_PMB
correction relating to preserved 1335, and info from John about which coaches the kits represent

[Flying Snail]

Speaking of possible coaching stock to run behind the 800s. One of the pullmans wouldn't look out of place behind them. Would the four pullmans sent to Ireland in the 20s have been constructed to Irish loading gauge? I know they had Irish gangways and the bogies are probably different too, but would they have otherwise resembled their British contemporaries?

Edited March 14 by Flying Snail

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Speaking of possible coaching stock to run behind the 800s. One of the pullmans wouldn't look out of place behind them. Would the four pullmans sent to Ireland in the 20s have been constructed to Irish loading gauge? I know they had Irish gangways and the bogies are probably different too, but would they have otherwise resembled their British contemporaries?

I think the 5th carriage in this train is a former Pullman, hauled by 801 in 1955:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508723481/

Dimensions of the Irish Pullmans were as follows:

• Length over body 63'10", over buffers 67'
• Bogie centres 43'4"
• Bogie wheelbase 10'
• Body width 8'11"
• Height to top of roof 12'9.5"

I don't know much about the UK Pullmans except that there was a huge variety of them. Probably none identical to the Irish ones but some might have similar dimensions and style?

Some Irish Pullman photo links:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507626132/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252982311/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511625293/

 

[Mayner]

On 14/3/2025 at 9:56 PM, Mol_PMB said:

I now have my references in front of me so I'll just summarise what the kits represent.

In 1935 the GSR built a series of gangwayed main-line coaches, with a 60'0" length over the body, and 9'0" width over the body. The upper body sides were vertical with a gentle curve below the waist to a width of 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body. This group included the following coaches which I think are those represented by the SSM kits:

• 8 corridor thirds 1323-1330
• 2 corridor composites 2114-2115
• 1 brake/luggage 2548

There was also 1 corridor first 1144 but there is no kit for this. In 1949-1951, composite 2115 was reclassified as a first.

1327 was preserved but I don't think it now exists.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

Here's composite 2114 in CIE livery in the 1950s:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343

They lasted in passenger service until the early 1970s. For example, 2115 was converted to brake/luggage van 2559 in 1971 and survived another decade or so, while 1335 was withdrawn in 1973.

 

The GSR built a second series of gangwayed main-line coaches in 1937. These were also 60'0" length over the body, but the body profile was different. They retained the 9'0" width at cantrail height and 8'10" at the bottom edge of the body, but the width at the waist was increased to 9'6". This meant that the upper sides were noticeably inclined with a more significant curve on the lower sides. 

• 4 corridor thirds 1335-1338
• 4 corridor composites 2120-2123

Apart from the body profile, these carriages were virtually identical to the 1935 batch. It should therefore be possible to modify the SSM kit to represent these by curving the sides more and reshaping the end profiles.

Here's third 1338:

And one of the composites here (in the background):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508777481

2120/1 were converted to brake/luggage vans 2560/1 in 1971 and survived another decade or so; the others were withdrawn in the early 1970s.

1335 was preserved and still exists:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508127442/

 

The first carriages built by CIE in 1951 were a batch of 6 composites numbered 2124-2129. These were closely based on their GSR predecessors, but had a welded truss underframe. The body profile reverted to having vertical upper sides, but now at 9'6" width. The window styling was also different, with raised aluminium frames. A possible kitbash from the SSM model, but these would be more work. There's a nice photo of one of these on page 43 of the book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages'.

After that, CIE adopted a 61'6" length and this also influenced the layout of the coaches, for example the composites had 4 first and 3 third compartments, rather than the 3 first and 4 third on the shorter 60'0" underframe.

The SSM coaches are of the 1937 batch 9'6" wide with curving sides. The Full Brake has slab sides

 

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, Mayner said:

The SSM coaches are of the 1937 batch 9'6" wide with curving sides. The Full Brake has slab sides

 

Ah, thanks for the correction John, that's very useful to know. It's probably easier to convert the 1937 ones to the 1935 shape if one wanted both.

That model looks excellent - very tempting!

I'd buy one to make up the numbers, but I have no need for a whole rake.

With so many people ordering an 800, I wonder how many of them would be prepared to build etched coach kits to go behind it? I suspect it's a small percentage but maybe enough for Des to justify a batch of these.

[Colin R]

On 14/3/2025 at 10:02 AM, Mol_PMB said:

I think the 5th carriage in this train is a former Pullman, hauled by 801 in 1955:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508723481/

Dimensions of the Irish Pullmans were as follows:

• Length over body 63'10", over buffers 67'
• Bogie centres 43'4"
• Bogie wheelbase 10'
• Body width 8'11"
• Height to top of roof 12'9.5"

I don't know much about the UK Pullmans except that there was a huge variety of them. Probably none identical to the Irish ones but some might have similar dimensions and style?

Some Irish Pullman photo links:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507626132/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252982311/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511625293/

 

If you want a kit of an Irish Pullman, try the following 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_Irish_Standard_Gauge.htm

[Noel]

I've been in hospital for a week so havent been near t'internet and missed this. Wow this is a stellar announcement. No wonder the recent intereest on FB in the Bachmann CIE coaches. Never seen 800 run myself but its a must have as it was the iconic mainlune express loco in Ireland on the Cork-Dublin line. Something to look forward to for next year. 800 was more powerful that the GWR castle class.

[jhb171achill]

20 minutes ago, Noel said:

I've been in hospital for a week so havent been near t'internet and missed this. Wow this is a stellar announcement. No wonder the recent intereest on FB in the Bachmann CIE coaches. Never seen 800 run myself but its a must have as it was the iconic mainlune express loco in Ireland on the Cork-Dublin line. Something to look forward to for next year. 800 was more powerful that the GWR castle class.

Hope you're recovered OK!