Murphy Models 121

[Junctionmad]

Ok , eaten bread and all that , we need a rtr A class. The most numerous engine On the system at the time

[jhb171achill]

Great idea, John, then it would be STEAMING along!!!!!!

 

 

Exactly, Leslie! And a cupboard, of course, for chocolate.

[Warbonnet]

Ok , eaten bread and all that , we need a rtr A class. The most numerous engine On the system at the time

 

A RTR A Class is available.

[GSR 800]

And the Biccies John,..and the Biccies..(leans back into shadowy chair)

[Georgeconna]

Wonder could the 1916 commemoration product be something like this? would have a Broad appeal too?

 

http://www.ehattons.com/50342/Bachmann_Branchline_CE00609_Tram_69_Birkenhead_Corporation_tramways_Motorised/StockDetail.aspx

 

Tis the only thing I can think of RTR around 1916 and that's available?

 

happy new year lads.

 

G

[Noel]

A RTR A Class is available.

 

Hmmm - But not up to todays high standard of RTR. Like others I have some of them and while I'm delighted to have two models that resemble CIE metrovics, they are basic and most definitely not fine scale. They are poor runners on cheap chassis from yesteryears toy market, and lack standard RTR features such as running lights, hand rails, decent window glazing, NEM pockets, all wheel pickup, four axle drive, speaker chambers, DCC ready, body detail, etc.

 

By far the most numerous and populist diesels to grace Irelands railways were the ninety six metrovic A and C class that ran much of the network for a generation. Numerically the MVs dwarfed the GMs for about 20 years.

 

Once the MM 121 is on the market, the MVs will be the last gaping hole in the Irish model market. I'm delighted I will be able to run three or four MM 121s next year, but whenever it happens if ever, I would be in the market for about six to eight quality RTR MVs.

[Warbonnet]

Hmmm - But not up to todays high standard of RTR. Like others I have some of them and while I'm delighted to have two models that resemble CIE metrovics, they are basic and most definitely not fine scale. They are poor runners on cheap chassis from yesteryears toy market, and lack standard RTR features such as running lights, hand rails, decent window glazing, NEM pockets, all wheel pickup, four axle drive, speaker chambers, DCC ready, body detail, etc.

 

By far the most numerous and populist diesels to grace Irelands railways were the ninety six metrovic A and C class that ran much of the network for a generation. Numerically the MVs dwarfed the GMs for about 20 years.

 

Once the MM 121 is on the market, the MVs will be the last gaping hole in the Irish model market. I'm delighted I will be able to run three or four MM 121s next year, but whenever it happens if ever, I would be in the market for about six to eight quality RTR MVs.

 

Sadly Noel there are two options; A bit of modelling work and a re-chassis of an existing A model currently available to bring it up to scratch, or donating around €200k to Mr. Murphy or similar and wait 2-3 years at least with the hope you'd make your money back. Anyway, this thread is about the 121's so let's keep it on topic. Thanks.

[Noel]

Sadly Noel there are two options; A bit of modelling work and a re-chassis of an existing A model currently available to bring it up to scratch, or donating around €200k to Mr. Murphy or similar and wait 2-3 years at least with the hope you'd make your money back. Anyway, this thread is about the 121's so let's keep it on topic. Thanks.

 

Sure. Delighted the 121s in the pipeline and looking forward to same. Happy to wait for other events to unfold or not in 3 or 4 years. In the mean time I am in the middle of changing chassis for two MVs.

 

Having re-read the press release, a bit confused, is the first batch of MM 121s likely to have the IR logo (rails) or IE logo (3 pin plug)?

[RedRich]

Lets just be satisfied and wait for the 121s. Doesn't matter where they are made as long as the quality is as good as the 141/181 and 071s.

 

Hope they have a builtin speaker.

 

Noel as a modeller and consumer I am interested in where the model is produced and it is another aspect of the hobby that I care about also. It's nice to follow the development from the computer screen to the finished model. The IRM crew have been keeping us up to date on the development of the ballast wagon showing us cad images of where we are at the moment, and that makes the project that extra little bit more special. It does matter to some of us.

 

Rich,

[brianmcs]

Sadly Noel there are two options; A bit of modelling work and a re-chassis of an existing A model currently available to bring it up to scratch, or donating around €200k to Mr. Murphy or similar and wait 2-3 years at least with the hope you'd make your money back. Anyway, this thread is about the 121's so let's keep it on topic. Thanks.

 

200k?

would it really cost that much ?

[WRENNEIRE]

Tooling can cost from €70,000 - €85000

And that is money up front before a single loco hits the assembly line

Painting, numbering, Motors, wheels bogies glazing accessory packs, packing etc are all extra

Shipping from China and VAT to be paid before they hit the shelves

Not for the faint hearted

[Warbonnet]

200k?

would it really cost that much ?

 

Yes, and that's up front.

[brianmcs]

Tooling can cost from €70,000 - €85000

And that is money up front before a single loco hits the assembly line

Painting, numbering, Motors, wheels bogies glazing accessory packs, packing etc are all extra

Shipping from China and VAT to be paid before they hit the shelves

Not for the faint hearted

 

indeed !!

can see why people like Marklin have relocated some production back to Europe.

[Warbonnet]

indeed !!

can see why people like Marklin have relocated some production back to Europe.

 

China (for the moment) is still the most economical place for manufacture. The 121 will be the 4th time that Paddy Murphy will take on such a serious investment. The guy is a hero for risking that much cash over the years with not a massive amount of return. Irish models are niche, small run stuff as there are less people interested than say American or British outline. This is why the prices of the locos when they come on market are slightly higher.

 

We'd all love an A Class of course, but it comes at a serious price.

[Horsetan]

There must be a serious degree of red ink on some profit and loss accounts.

[GSR 800]

Would he be making a loss? I wonder what MMs turnover is?

[brianmcs]

China (for the moment) is still the most economical place for manufacture. The 121 will be the 4th time that Paddy Murphy will take on such a serious investment. The guy is a hero for risking that much cash over the years with not a massive amount of return. Irish models are niche, small run stuff as there are less people interested than say American or British outline. This is why the prices of the locos when they come on market are slightly higher.

 

We'd all love an A Class of course, but it comes at a serious price.

 

I think we all understand how small the market for Irish models is and the challenges and risks that poses for people like Murphy models.

Most of the people on this forum are more concerned with quality than price I suspect.

The fact that the Germans ( and others ) have retained some production in Europe makes me sceptical about the assumption that China is the most economical place to manufacture.

It is interesting that collectors of marques like Rivarossi like to see " made in Italy " stamped on the models .

Perhaps for some people , the place where something is made is important.

Faced with a choice between a RTR made in china and a kit made in Ireland I would buy the kit.

[Warbonnet]

I think we all understand how small the market for Irish models is and the challenges and risks that poses for people like Murphy models.

Most of the people on this forum are more concerned with quality than price I suspect.

The fact that the Germans ( and others ) have retained some production in Europe makes me sceptical about the assumption that China is the most economical place to manufacture.

It is interesting that collectors of marques like Rivarossi like to see " made in Italy " stamped on the models .

Perhaps for some people , the place where something is made is important.

Faced with a choice between a RTR made in china and a kit made in Ireland I would buy the kit.

 

A Marklin locomotive of similar size to say a 121 or an A will be about €100 more expensive to buy (RRPs). Their production runs would be much larger and they would have the possibility of making many more locomotives over the lifetime of the tooling as the market and demand would be a lot larger.

 

Rivarossi is now owned by Hornby and their models are made in China.

 

Bachmann, Hornby, Athearn, Atlas, Murphy Models, Proto 2000, Walthers, Broadway Limited, MTH, Dapol, Heljan all have one thing in common. Their models are made in China. I think they all know where the best place to make models are when it comes to price point and skills.

 

If we were to make our wagons here in Ireland you can lob at least €100 onto the price. I'm sure the same can be said for Hornby etc. Then we'd have to find someone capable of making them!

 

If you want to go along with your commendable patriotic choice there are plenty of MIR kits of 141s, 071s, 201s and soon 121s kicking about at swapmeets which you can buy as they were made here over the Murphy Models alternative made in China.

[Garfield]

I think we all understand how small the market for Irish models is and the challenges and risks that poses for people like Murphy models.

Most of the people on this forum are more concerned with quality than price I suspect.

The fact that the Germans ( and others ) have retained some production in Europe makes me sceptical about the assumption that China is the most economical place to manufacture.

It is interesting that collectors of marques like Rivarossi like to see " made in Italy " stamped on the models .

Perhaps for some people , the place where something is made is important.

Faced with a choice between a RTR made in china and a kit made in Ireland I would buy the kit.

 

Each to their own and all that... but with IRM we thoroughly investigated the possibility of manufacturing closer to home and there is just no way facilities here can realistically compete. Even Rivarossi (now owned by Hornby) have moved to China. Some, like Marklin, may still undertake some production in Europe, but the cost is reflected in the retail price.

[Warbonnet]

Would he be making a loss? I wonder what MMs turnover is?

 

I'm sure he makes a living, but it's a lot a money to fork out up front and placing your trust in a factory thousands of miles away to deliver the goods correctly. If they cock up you're up **** creek without a paddle and a rather large debt over your head as the product wont sell. His dedication has seen things done properly. Having said that I'm sure he isnt lighting cigars with 50 euro notes either, which some of the begrudgers would have you believe sadly.

[Noel]

Noel as a modeller and consumer I am interested in where the model is produced and it is another aspect of the hobby that I care about also. It's nice to follow the development from the computer screen to the finished model. The IRM crew have been keeping us up to date on the development of the ballast wagon showing us cad images of where we are at the moment, and that makes the project that extra little bit more special. It does matter to some of us.

 

Rich,

 

Apologies RR, sure understand.

[brianmcs]

A Marklin locomotive of similar size to say a 121 or an A will be about €100 more expensive to buy (RRPs). Their production runs would be much larger and they would have the possibility of making many more locomotives over the lifetime of the tooling as the market and demand would be a lot larger.

 

Rivarossi is now owned by Hornby and their models are made in China.

 

Bachmann, Hornby, Athearn, Atlas, Murphy Models, Proto 2000, Walthers, Broadway Limited, MTH, Dapol, Heljan all have one thing in common. Their models are made in China. I think they all know where the best place to make models are when it comes to price point and skills.

 

If we were to make our wagons here in Ireland you can lob at least €100 onto the price. I'm sure the same can be said for Hornby etc. Then we'd have to find someone capable of making them!

 

If you want to go along with your commendable patriotic choice there are plenty of MIR kits of 141s, 071s, 201s and soon 121s kicking about at swapmeets which you can buy as they were made here over the Murphy Models alternative made in China.

 

When I mentioned kits I was thinking of the high quality brass ones produced by SSM which I think most would agree are worth having .

Having high quality RTR models and high quality kits available is the best of both worlds .

Would a high quality brass kit of an A class be an attractive proposition ?

[GSR 800]

Hmm..interesting...

 

But there would(obviously) be a much larger appeal to an RTR run. Chances are MM won't consider an A for at least a couple of years so a kit might work

[Garfield]

Hmm..interesting...

 

But there would(obviously) be a much larger appeal to an RTR run. Chances are MM won't consider an A for at least a couple of years so a kit might work

 

A kit would most likely lessen the prospects of an RTR version further down the line.

[aclass007]

A kit would most likely lessen the prospects of an RTR version further down the line.

 

Absolutely.

 

Only my opinion here, but I'd go so far as to say the fact that Silverfox produced the A class when they did probably pushed the A class well down on Murphy Models to do list.....

[RedRich]

Apologies RR, sure understand.

 

No need whatsoever to apologize Noel. There are many different facets to the hobby and whether one individual is into highly detailed and accurate models and another just wants to play trains we all have a voice. I believe the 121 will be a fabulous model and I am really looking forward to it.

 

Rich,

[Noel]

. . . would a high quality brass kit of an A class be an attractive proposition ?

 

Not for me because it would still leave the chassis problem, prefer RTR, and just personally speaking not keen on brass. Prefer the detail of high quality injection moulded plastic. The 121 like the other MMs will deliver both fine scale authenticity packaged with a truly top class chassis that runs superbly and prototypically.

 

Wonder if the new MM 121 will have the NEM pocket attached to the body or the bogie? It might spoil the look of the distinctive 121 cab end if there is a big gap in the front valance to accommodate a bogie mounted coupling, but I guess it could be supplied with an optional valance filler like the existing GM models.

[brianmcs]

No need whatsoever to apologize Noel. There are many different facets to the hobby and whether one individual is into highly detailed and accurate models and another just wants to play trains we all have a voice. I believe the 121 will be a fabulous model and I am really looking forward to it.

 

Rich,

 

A very sensible approach.

 

I am only speculating , but when I say Kit I mean something of the same standard as the MM locos.

I have a MM141 and 071 ( dare I mention also the Lima 201 ?) If they had been sold as a kit of parts ( with the body prefinished ) I would still have bought them and would have enjoyed assembling them .

This is all a bit moot as {very fortunately ) MM are going ahead with the 121 , but it might be a good approach for future models.

[Garfield]

but when I say Kit I mean something of the same standard as the MM locos.

 

This is something of a misnomer. By it's very nature, a kit can't be of the same standard as an RTR model. The completed model has the potential to reach that standard, or perhaps even exceed it, but it all depends on the builder. As the saying goes... 'results may vary'.

[Noel]

. . . If they had been sold as a kit of parts ( with the body prefinished ) I would still have bought them and would have enjoyed assembling them . . . but it might be a good approach for future models.

 

I suppose it depends on ones definition of and the composition of a kit. If it is a 100% complete kit with absolutely all parts, paints and decals supplied, then the example you describe Brian I would find attractive because it basically would only require assembly and painting, using screws, snap fittings, and small amount of glue, but no fabrication, filing, sanding, drilling, soldering nor cutting. A relatively easy way to build using injection moulded plastic parts. The only thing that could go wrong is the painting.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Noel

[Junctionmad]

Personally I would never see kits competing with rtr. The fact IS a kit exists would in no way deter a. RTR manufacturer. There's two distinct markets.

[RedRich]

This is something of a misnomer. By it's very nature, a kit can't be of the same standard as an RTR model. The completed model has the potential to reach that standard, or perhaps even exceed it, but it all depends on the builder. As the saying goes... 'results may vary'.

 

I agree. A classic example in a diesel model are the Fia trains brass built LMS twins. They knock the socks off the Dapol and Bachmann versions. The price might seem excessive to many but the quality wins through every time.

 

Rich,

[Glenderg]

A brass kit of an A Class? Would someone explain how you'd form the eliptical curve to the front, the compound curve to tie in with the eliptical roof, and the filler portion just where the cab light pods are?

 

its impossible lads.

[brianmcs]

A brass kit of an A Class? Would someone explain how you'd form the eliptical curve to the front, the compound curve to tie in with the eliptical roof, and the filler portion just where the cab light pods are?

 

its impossible lads.

 

those type of parts would usually be made by pressing brass over a former.

etched brass can recreate detail as good if not better than injection moulding.

[Noel]

In the old days we used to scratch build RC model aircraft from plans, or basic kits using balsa, dope and tissue. Times have moved on and technology has changed, now modern high quality composite materials and plastics are used, kits are now mostly semi finished assembly jobs, ARFT, or more commonly RTF (ready to fly out of the box) like RTR railway models. Not as many folk are prepared build things anymore for a whole range of reasons. I guess materials such as brass and white metal are the equivalent of the balsa and tissue materials that dominated model aircraft construction decades ago. There is no right or wrong just what one is used to. But today one senses most consumers want high quality RTR straight out of the box, hence the MM 121 should sell well and prove very popular right across the entire modelling spectrum.