Murphy Models 121

[Junctionmad]

In the old days we used to scratch build RC model aircraft from plans, or basic kits using balsa, dope and tissue. Times have moved on and technology has changed, now modern high quality composite materials and plastics are used, kits are now mostly semi finished assembly jobs, ARFT, or more commonly RTF (ready to fly out of the box) like RTR railway models. Not as many folk are prepared build things anymore for a whole range of reasons. I guess materials such as brass and white metal are the equivalent of the balsa and tissue materials that dominated model aircraft construction decades ago. There is no right or wrong just what one is used to. But today one senses most consumers want high quality RTR straight out of the box, hence the MM 121 should sell well and prove very popular right across the entire modelling spectrum.

 

 

I don't agree Noel. If one looks across the water, one still sees lots of kits being produced and presumably built. Pure scratch building was always a minority sport.

 

The existence of higher quality rtr , simply means that " ordinary " modellers can experience the realism , that for many years was the preserve of high quality builders.

 

In fact with the arrival of resin castings, high quality etching and supplemented by 3D , and the demise of poorer quality rotary whitemetal, we could be entering a golden era of kits and scratch building.

 

Even in the uk , only a fraction of the prototype is available in high quality rtr, so there will always be a demand from specialist suppliers to produce kits and components

 

Compared to 30 years ago , when I last built kits , I would say there's a great interest and variety in today's kits and people who traditionally would never touch a whitemetal kit are building modern composite kits.

 

I think it would be a huge shame to see any reliance on RTR over any other method, in this hobby. We would loose one of the essentials of the hobby , that you " build " something

 

To give a concrete example , today , compared to 30 years ago , I can buy a whole series of components that allow me to fabricate very realistic track , complete with accurate tie bars , chair detail and good rail profiles. This suggests that track building is strong or even stronger then before

Edited January 12, 2016 by Junctionmad

[Noel]

Hi JM. Fair enough. Each on to their own. Personally I don't have the time to build anymore nor the inclination when RTR is far better than anything I could build. But that's just me, I've got to the stage in life where I just want to operate really nice looking choo-choos in an authentic manner. My building will be limited to layout elements. I buy my veggies in Tesco's too rather than grow them in the back garden!

[Junctionmad]

Hi JM. Fair enough. Each on to their own. Personally I don't have the time to build anymore nor the inclination when RTR is far better than anything I could build. But that's just me, I've got to the stage in life where I just want to operate really nice looking choo-choos in an authentic manner. My building will be limited to layout elements. I buy my veggies in Tesco's too rather than grow them in the back garden!

 

Said a man with about 6 kits on the go , your secret is safe with me.

[Noel]

Said a man with about 6 kits on the go , your secret is safe with me.

 

Shhh! That is just my last hurrah - from now on its RTR all the way with four MM 121s next winter.

[WRENNEIRE]

A brass kit of an A Class? Would someone explain how you'd form the eliptical curve to the front, the compound curve to tie in with the eliptical roof, and the filler portion just where the cab light pods are?

 

its impossible lads.

 

Have me an A Class Brass kit somewhere. also a built one

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/157-LIMA-Murphy-Models/page54

[Kirley]

A brass kit of an A Class? Would someone explain how you'd form the eliptical curve to the front, the compound curve to tie in with the eliptical roof, and the filler portion just where the cab light pods are?

 

its impossible lads.

 

The brass kits of the A & C Class I've come across have white metal cast ends, rough by todays standards.

[Glenderg]

Kind of what I was getting at really.

 

Brass kits produced by the likes of Linea are so high end, they easily match the quality of an injection moulded unit. Or even the stuff by Britannia Pacific (combo resin/brass) is the highest quality resin I've ever seen but the components are small.

 

However, If you end up with cast ends, be they whitemetal or resin, they'll never come up to the standard of injection moulding as shrinkage tends to badly affect them. C'est la vie.

[Noel]

Looking forward to these next year from MM

 

2 of these (no hand rail along sides)

 

And one of these for static display

[Railer]

I never realised the 121s didn't have air brake hoses or multiple working MU sockets fitted until later on. I think the 141s had them when leaving Inchicore after delivery. I know nothing was air braked until the bogie bulk cement wagons came into service but still.

[Glenderg]

I suppose the concept of double heading never really existed in Ireland before that? Seems like a gigantic oversight.

[DiveController]

Looking forward to these next year from MM

 

2 of these (no hand rail along sides)

Is this at Cork shed?

I didn't realize that the metallic/grey single beets came with a bauxite chassis……

[Noel]

I suppose the concept of double heading never really existed in Ireland before that? Seems like a gigantic oversight.

 

Thought some of the steam trains were double headed for the steep incline out of Cork, and even tripled for the incline on heavy trains. Wasn't there was a siding or loop north of Cork past the incline for the additional locos to hold once uncoupled while their train passed on to Dublin.

[Mayner]

During the 1950s CIE like British Railways did not anticipate the requirement for high power diesel locomotives that would become necessary as trains became heavier/faster in the 60s and 70s

 

The B121s were only fitted up for multi-unit operation during the Mid-1970s when double heading became necessary to keep time with longer/heavier trains as service frequency was cut back as CIEs losses worsened as a result of the 1st Oil Crisis. More people were using the trains than before but fares were capped by government as fuel costs soared following the crisis. Increased fuel and transport costs basically killed of Quigley Magnesite and adversely affected the viability of Asahi and NET/IFI

Edited January 13, 2016 by Mayner

[Garfield]

Thought some of the steam trains were double headed for the steep incline out of Cork, and even tripled for the incline on heavy trains. Wasn't there was a siding or loop north of Cork past the incline for the additional locos to hold once uncoupled while their train passed on to Dublin.

 

I think Richie meant multiple working as opposed to traditional double-heading...

[flange lubricator]

I suppose the concept of double heading never really existed in Ireland before that? Seems like a gigantic oversight.

 

Were the two Inchicore sulzers 1100 and 1101 not fitted for multple working as built in 1951?

[Junctionmad]

The main reason double heading of 121s occurred was of course the decision by drivers and Cie not to run them engine forward and as turntables fell out of use. They got hooked up in pairs , irespective of the drawbar requirements

[Noel]

Were the two Inchicore sulzers 1100 and 1101 not fitted for multple working as built in 1951?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22125[/ATTACH]

 

Those things look like something from 1930s Peter Cushing horror movie. The sort of trains Frankenstein travelled on, or freight deliverys to the Dalek factory.

 

The main reason double heading of 121s occurred was of course the decision by drivers and Cie not to run them engine forward and as turntables fell out of use. They got hooked up in pairs , irespective of the drawbar requirements

 

Yes that's what I thought. Strange though at that time running nose first was such an issue given most of the drivers would have been used to the restricted visibility of steam locos. But I can see though that any new drivers trained in A or C class, or Sulzers would have felt very uncomfortable driving the 121s nose first. Same thing happened on British rail with the class 20s and they were run in nose to nose pairs also.

[Garfield]

I'm not sure the Inchicore Sulzers were ever fitted for multiple working. It's likely the photo above was staged, but even if it wasn't there was probably a driver in each cab.

 

Yes that's what I thought. Strange though at that time running nose first was such an issue given most of the drivers would have been used to the restricted visibility of steam locos. But I can see though that any new drivers trained in A or C class, or Sulzers would have felt very uncomfortable driving the 121s nose first. Same thing happened on British rail with the class 20s and they were run in nose to nose pairs also.

 

The ban on running nose-first had more to do with the fact that engine noise made it difficult for drivers to hear detonators if they were triggered by the wheels at the nose end.

 

 

The main reason double heading of 121s occurred was of course the decision by drivers and Cie not to run them engine forward and as turntables fell out of use. They got hooked up in pairs , irespective of the drawbar requirements

 

I wouldn't be so sure about this. They started working in multiple at the same time CIÉ began pairing the other small GMs, too, which suggests it had more to do with power requirements (the hammering they took working alone on six-coach Mk3 push-pulls showed why this was essential). Most termini still had operational turntables up until recently - and some still do - which would have allowed them to be turned, and there are photos out there of that happening. There are also photos out there of single 121s working services into the late 1980s/early '90s, such as the Cork mail. I even saw one hauling a dead 071 once in the mid-'90s.

[Junctionmad]

I'm not sure the Inchicore Sulzers were ever fitted for multiple working. It's likely the photo above was staged, but even if it wasn't there was probably a driver in each cab.

 

 

 

The ban on running nose-first had more to do with the fact that engine noise made it difficult for drivers to hear detonators if they were triggered by the wheels at the nose end.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about this. They started working in multiple at the same time CIÉ began pairing the other small GMs, too, which suggests it had more to do with power requirements (the hammering they took working alone on six-coach Mk3 push-pulls showed why this was essential). Most termini still had operational turntables up until recently - and some still do - which would have allowed them to be turned, and there are photos out there of that happening. There are also photos out there of single 121s working services into the late 1980s/early '90s, such as the Cork mail. I even saw one hauling a dead 071 once in the mid-'90s.

 

I actually read the report somewhere , but Cie carried out specific trials , which I think was as a result of several SPADs , the drivers union I beleive had decided not to support engine first running, and cies trials also agreed with that. The loco had to be either turned or run as a pair. By the late 70s , if you compare working timetables, you'll see a marked decrease in stations marked with working turntables.

[Junctionmad]

Here's the link http://www.irrs.ie/Journal%20175/175%20B121.htm

 

In fairness to garfieldghost, there was an initial incident involving a collision with a platelayers truck that sparked the issue of hood end operation , this was both attributed to inability to spot the flagman and a claimed issue over not hearing detonators

 

There was then a trial done from Connolly to rosslare , and it was concluded that general sighting issues were such that it was reccomonded that the engines only be operated cab end leading except in special circumstances.

 

The availability of turntables allowed single engine running to be accommodated into the mid to late seventies when the decreasing availability of turntables forced the company to hook them together

 

Ultimately , the reason was cies successful introduction with the advent of its first diesels , of one man in the cab , that causes this issue , traditionally firemen had a big role as observers.

[Junctionmad]

Is this at Cork shed?

I didn't realize that the metallic/grey single beets came with a bauxite chassis……

 

Lovely evocative picture of times lost to us now

[Garfield]

To go with what I was saying about single 121s working in the late 1980s/early '90s, here's a photo of 130 at Mallow with the Dublin-Cork mail:

[Noel]

To go with what I was saying about single 121s working in the late 1980s/early '90s, here's a photo of 130 at Mallow with the Dublin-Cork mail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/60591747@N06/5571370608

 

Interesting photo of a mk2 with half tippex coupled to a mk3. The different shades of orange on the coaches is very clear in that pic.

[RedRich]

Interesting photo of a mk2 with half tippex coupled to a mk3. The different shades of orange on the coaches is very clear in that pic.

 

That's a MK3.

 

Rich,

[RedRich]

Interesting how different the shades of orange are on the MK3's.

 

Rich,

[Garfield]

Interesting photo of a mk2 with half tippex coupled to a mk3. The different shades of orange on the coaches is very clear in that pic.

 

As Rich said, that's a Mk3 generator van.

 

I'll get a pain in the proverbials if this descends into another discussion about shades of orange...

[Noel]

As Rich said, that's a Mk3 generator van.

 

I'll get a pain in the proverbials if this descends into another discussion about shades of orange...

 

There's a 121 shades of orange standing on the wall . . .

 

Back on thread, any idea if the NEM sockets on the new 121s might be on the body or the bogies?

[Garfield]

Back on thread, any idea if the NEM sockets on the new 121s might be on the body or the bogies?

 

I'll be surprised if it's not the same arrangement as the 141/181s.

[RedRich]

I'll get a pain in the proverbials if this descends into another discussion about shades of orange...

 

Sorry Pat couldn't resist it.

 

Rich,

[Warbonnet]

As Rich said' date=' that's a Mk3 generator van. I'll get a pain in the proverbials if this descends into another discussion about shades of orange... [/quote']

 

Of if it descends into another 'we need a pukka A Class' discussion!

[GSR 800]

Blimey! Not surprisin' people wan' a good A class, considerin' we 'ave nearly everythin' else diesel wise. Nuff said!

[Warbonnet]

Blimey! Not surprisin' people wan' a good A class' date=' considerin' we 'ave nearly everythin' else diesel wise. Nuff said![/quote']

 

That's fine, but when it's inserted in topics about 5 times a week it becomes banal.

[RedRich]

Getting back on topic I am really looking forward to pairing a 121 with a baby. They were an everyday sight when paired together on Beets in the Beet season, and Cements out of Waterford. 124 and 146 hauling IRM Cements, I can't wait.

 

Rich,

[DiveController]

Getting back on topic I am really looking forward to pairing a 121 with a baby. They were an everyday sight when paired together on Beets in the Beet season, and Cements out of Waterford. 124 and 146 hauling IRM Cements, I can't wait.

 

Rich,

 

I was planning the same consist maybe even the 121 as the second loco. It seems that they usually ran with the 121 leading with its high cab. I have seen them the other way with the 121 against the train which looks a little odd, the high cab like the windows of an observation coach on American outline rolling stock

[aclass007]

I was planning the same consist maybe even the 121 as the second loco. It seems that they usually ran with the 121 leading with its high cab. I have seen them the other way with the 121 against the train which looks a little odd, the high cab like the windows of an observation coach on American outline rolling stock

 

They would have ran equal distances with the 121 leading and trailing. It seems obvious that if the 121 lead on the outward journey, it would have trailed on the return journey.... (maybe trailed isn't the right word, but you get the picture..)