DiveController Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I think you're missing out on the people who don't frequent these forums, or those of a certain age who are keen irish modellers, but don't internet. There are also the glass cabinet collectors, who have no interest in running. I think 109 votes represents only about 5-6% of Irish Railway Modellers. R. I'm absolutely with you on that one. I just wish we would get semi-reliable data on the demand. If the model was good the collectors usually take a rake of them (I have some tendencies in that direction too). How would we advertise such an offering to the IT-reluctant punters/get the prepay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenderg Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 New Irish Lines publication, MRSI, South Dublin, Wexford Railway Club - word about scandal, gossip, and new goodies spreads faster than the Heuston Driver can make it up sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveController Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 New Irish Lines publication, MRSI, South Dublin, Wexford Railway Club - word about scandal, gossip, and new goodies spreads faster than the Heuston Driver can make it up sometimes. As long as they stump up the cash!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbonnet Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I had posted a request for a flat "No" if people didn't want to' date=' in order to give a better feel for the mood of the populace. Kinda like a general election in Ireland, 25% voter turnout! It looks like we pretty stuck with about 80 interested modelers albeit some did want to potentially buy more the one model [/quote'] Maybe some just aren't arsed and didn't bother reading the thread. If people don't want to participate in it that's fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverbird81 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 121 class RTR More NIR stock RTR Maybe NIR Demu rtr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverbird81 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Why dosent Mr murphy start a little thread on here with the help of site administrator and market research or ask for advance payments on a mass produced 121 class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverbird81 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 And if your reading Mr Murphy don't forget about your customers North of the border who also model NIR as well as IR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BosKonay Posted November 23, 2014 Author Share Posted November 23, 2014 Am sure all the NIR items Paddy has released is testament to that! Even limited edition runs of all 111 class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbonnet Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Why dosent Mr murphy start a little thread on here with the help of site administrator and market research or ask for advance payments on a mass produced 121 class He is aware of the thread. I also think that the 121 will happen once existing stock is sold, so the crowdfunding deal may not be of interest to him. And if your reading Mr Murphy don't forget about your customers North of the border who also model NIR as well as IR I think his most recent releases demonstrates his belief in NIR. That's a bit of a silly, unfair and unproductive statement to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Speaking to Mr. Murphy , I suspect he may put his well earned carpet slippers on. I wonder will he bother doing anything more then what he's already announced. Personally, I think, the hobby will have to start looking at alternatives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 From my perspective I feel we owe PM an enourmous debt of gratitude. When I started decades ago there was absolutely ZERO Irish 'scale' RTR model locos or rolling stock. The odd repaint of BR coaches and rubbish repaints of poor running BR locos (eg Hymek and C33) that didn't remotely look like anything running on Irish rails. Thanks to MM we now have an absolute feast of the very highest quality RTR Irish locos and coaching stock to choose from in all liveries. This is well supplemented by some reasonable quality specialist items from other small scale producers. It seems to me we may have unrealistic expectations. We could do well to be a little more content with what we already have on offer. After all it's an absolute feast compared to 25/40 years ago. Personally if a proper high quality A class or 121 ever happens I will be as delighted as anybody, but not holding my breath. Due to economies of scale I doubt crowd funding could ever work in our minuscule specialist market. Unfortunately it seems a worthy dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell94 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveController Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Speaking to Mr. Murphy , I suspect he may put his well earned carpet slippers on. I wonder will he bother doing anything more then what he's already announced. Personally, I think, the hobby will have to start looking at alternatives I have heard something similar from another source…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveController Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 From my perspective I feel we owe PM an enourmous debt of gratitude. When I started decades ago there was absolutely ZERO Irish 'scale' RTR model locos or rolling stock. The odd repaint of BR coaches and rubbish repaints of poor running BR locos (eg Hymek and C33) that didn't remotely look like anything running on Irish rails. Thanks to MM we now have an absolute feast of the very highest quality RTR Irish locos and coaching stock to choose from in all liveries. This is well supplemented by some reasonable quality specialist items from other small scale producers. It seems to me we may have unrealistic expectations. We could do well to be a little more content with what we already have on offer. After all it's an absolute feast compared to 25/40 years ago. Personally if a proper high quality A class or 121 ever happens I will be as delighted as anybody, but not holding my breath. Due to economies of scale I doubt crowd funding could ever work in our minuscule specialist market. Unfortunately it seems a worthy dream. I think people on the thread are mixing sentiment with the need for a continuing supply of good quality RTR models. It goes without saying that he has really brought Irish outline some degree of prominence. However, if the models are not available for purchase people's interest will turn somewhere there is an outlet…. Look here at the APT-E thread from principally Irish outline modelers, some already signed up and I'm likely to too if there's no joy on here….. It's new, great quality, sentimental, reasonably priced for a 4 car unit, some potential to lengthen the rake….. an Irish model outline could be too http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/3314-Rapido-Trains-announce-APT-E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) Understand, but bare in mind the MM 141, 181, 071, 201s, Cravens and mk2ds, will most probably be available as re-runs for the long term future because the design, prototyping and tooling costs have already been absorbed. The UK market mainly sells models that purchasers have never travelled on, nor never seen in the flesh (ie BR big four steam era), likewise the iconic GMs should remain in proportionate demand here for the next 40 years or so (ie small production runs every six years or so). It is uncertain what the demand might be for current rolling stock. Part of the enduring culture of railway modelling has been nostalgia and 'the past'. Much the same as airfix aviation kits. WW2 models seem more popular than Cold War era or current era aircraft models. A(001) and 121 class models likely to be in greater demand than say 22k because of folks draw to the past. UK steam era gets a constant nostalgia refresh from movies and TV mini series which is a benefit Irish railway nostalgia lacks. Edited November 25, 2014 by Noel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UP6936 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I wonder would they be able to do re runs of the Baby GMs? Does anyone know if MM or Bachmann own the tooling? Also i wonder could a 121 be based on the same chassis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbonnet Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I have heard something similar from another source…. I've heard different from a source close to the great man. Just goes to show we shouldn't take notice of Chinese whispers and wait for the man to speak for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ral2011 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I would prepay. My favourites are The A und C Class, as well as the 121, the NCC Jeep, IE/IR Mk3, NIR Mk2 incl. brake generator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minister_for_hardship Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 A(001) and 121 class models likely to be in greater demand than say 22k because of folks draw to the past. UK steam era gets a constant nostalgia refresh from movies and TV mini series which is a benefit Irish railway nostalgia lacks. Plus preserved railways (which are pretty scarce and low profile here) and the ever present 'Thomas'. Never underestimate the power of sentimentality. God knows how many different variations of Flying Scotmen or Mallards were produced over the years. People never seem to tire of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leslie10646 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Am sure all the NIR items Paddy has released is testament to that! Even limited edition runs of all 111 class. AND they sell, for Mark had cleared out of the NIR 071s he took with him to Warley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave182 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Hi All. I've really enjoyed this exercise and let me first thank Warbonnet for taking the time to post the survey. The banter has been great, and even a little heated at times, but very thought provoking with some great input. My interpretation of the survey are this: 110 votes in total, of which 81 would prepay for a model. If each pledged €150 towards a loco model the pool total would only be €12,150, clearly a long way off what would be required. Add to this the range of suggestions posted to this thread and it becomes even less of a runner. This forum is a great resource for Irish Railway modellers but is only part of the picture. It's great to see contributions from the likes of Leslie who brought us the Bell containers, and I know for a fact that other suppliers and retailers will watch this poll from afar. The unfortunate reality is that the market is small, and we will have to hope that people like Paddy Murphy have the drive to keep producing Irish models. The one glimmer of hope that I see are the advances being made with 3D printing. I think all of us have had some experience of this process by now, but with mixed results. It's only new technology, and I hope these early experiences don't put the designers off when it comes to investing time in their models. As an example- Glenderg has obviously been plugging away at some projects as he outlined in this post earlier, and I would hope that the 3D printing technology catches up to his high standards and maybe allows him or people like him to make a few quid aswell! Final thoughts, I thinks it's clear that crowd funding is not a runner, so I'm gonna have to resort to begging letters addressed to Mr. P. Murphy for the 121 project to start! I'll take 5 please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Final thoughts, I thinks it's clear that crowd funding is not a runner, so I'm gonna have to resort to begging letters addressed to Mr. P. Murphy for the 121 project to start! I'll take 5 please! Aha - you cant rely on this forum alone for a valid opinion of modellers out there....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuby Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Evrybody both proposers and potential purchasers needs to be carefull here. I model Australian prototype and crowd funding is big over there given the small size of the market.There have been problems with delivery times which are seldom met, I am waiting nearly 4 years for delivery of a loco which I prepaid. Some of the bigger operators have influence but smaller less established ones can be left high and dry by the Chinese who seem to be all over the place at the moment. If the proposers place their order in say January 2015 it is extremely unlikely the model will be available until sometime in 2016. Just saying everybody should go into this with their eyes wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbonnet Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 This was just meant to be a straw pole to see amongst us would be willing to prepay to fund a model if such an idea was suggested and what models would be of interest. The data is free for people to take on to the next level themselves if they so choose, which would include wider marketing and investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveController Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Evrybody both proposers and potential purchasers needs to be carefull here. I model Australian prototype and crowd funding is big over there given the small size of the market.There have been problems with delivery times which are seldom met, I am waiting nearly 4 years for delivery of a loco which I prepaid. Some of the bigger operators have influence but smaller less established ones can be left high and dry by the Chinese who seem to be all over the place at the moment. If the proposers place their order in say January 2015 it is extremely unlikely the model will be available until sometime in 2016. Just saying everybody should go into this with their eyes wide open. Very good point but given that it might take years for the next MM there's a fluid timeline there too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveController Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Hi All. 110 votes in total, of which 81 would prepay for a model. If each pledged €150 towards a loco model the pool total would only be €12,150, clearly a long way off what would be required. Add to this the range of suggestions posted to this thread and it becomes even less of a runner. Sorry, Dave, I don't entirely agree with you. We had hoped to potentially pledge (or not) Eu200 (since that's more like the cost of the new models coming out after the introductory pricing) which Eu16,200, still a long way off so let's not split hairs. I do agree with Blaine that clearly not all modelers are members on this site and might not sign up just to poll if they haven't signed up already. The options I see with this are as follow: Either someone who has some knowledge of what they are doing (God, I wish I did!) with this may take it the next step to advertise it and see if there is a real market for a new high standard loco out there. While a lot of people have wish lists on here and not everyone will see the model they'd like, I think it has been instructive to see what is in people hearts, a nice piece of market research. I think there are a couple of clear forerunners so I won't bring it up again. Other options for a loco would be crowdfund an established supplier such as MM (if he was interested in that) with the intention to truncate the timeline to a new release. Moving from locos to other smaller models. Many suggestions to model something smaller and cheaper to reach the number to produce a limited run of (say) a popular wagons. There are lots of posts on the site of people buying a rake of up to a dozen popular wagons or even scratchbuilding their needs. Beets, Taras, Bubble cement have come up several times and I can certainly see people investing the same potential amount in a rake of smaller wagons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhb171achill Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Only a vague thought - some of us here wouldn't be very flush with cash, but there would be a few that are..... Maybe if a consortium of a few brave souls put up whatever cash was needed and shared the spoils.... But, anyhow, some very informative stuff above. It is to the very great credit of all those responsible, that any RTR Irish models have ever appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Blarney Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 My fellow modellers, I have read this thread with interest, however, I believe we are all missing a very important point when it comes to our wish list. It is this. This survey is flawed as it fails to determine exactly which model the respondents wish to fund and, most importantly, in what quantity they will purchase these items. 110 votes is a meaningless figure. It tells you that 110 people are interested in "Crowd-funding" but, it does not tell you, which product, and in what quantity they will purchase. Furthermore, the cost of bringing any model railway product to market is horrendously expensive. I speak from experience. Some years ago, I researched the practicalities of bringing an "Irish Cattle Wagon" to market. The tooling costs alone were in excess of £10,000 and that was before you even produced a single wagon. Fellow modellers on this site shewed their interest in such a wagon but, and here is the big, BUT, the numbers did not stack-up. 2 wagons here and there, 10 now and again, 20, if you were very lucky. The arithmetic was not there to make the investment worth THE RISK. Yes, RISK. We talk about times being hard, money tight, come on, the individual or individuals who are financing, yes financing a project like this need to know they will get a return on their money, the money they invested in our interests and hobby. We need to support the businesses that have already invested in our hobby, on our behalf. We need to purchase the products that have produced, and are producing for us. My thanks to MR PADDY MURPHY, of MURPHY MODELS, has been expressed to him. I have also shown my gratitude by purchasing his products. Perhaps, it might have been a polite and productive thing to have asked Murphy Models if they would be prepared to discuss this matter, and disclose their plans and timescale for their future products. Were this not possible, then, and only then should we be exploring the possibility of the route that is being discussed on this particular subject. My personal belief, yes personal belief, is this. I believe we are being inconsiderate to Paddy Murphy by not having cleared the stocks of ALL existing products from the shelves of all of the retailers selling his products. If he then fails to produce products for us, then, and only then, can we, the consumer, have the right to say that we are not being served by him, and his company. It is at this time you look for alternative sources of supplier. Perhaps if all viewers of this forum were to participate in an analysis of:- Product - "A" Class - As delivered to CIE, "A" Class - As first repainted by CIE, "A" Class - As first re-engined "A" Class - Silver, Green with stripe, green no stripe, light green, Black, Black and Tan, Super-train livery, IR Livery, IE livery, and so on and so forth - Only by completing an analysis of this type, for each locomotive group, will you determine what is practical to produce and at what cost the end-user will have to pay. I'll wait for Paddy to tell me what he plans to produce. Then I'll buy it. Until this happens I'm not even prepared to say what I want from this proposal. Apologies for my rant, Old Blarney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-r Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Do believe your right,who else has delivered,only paddy murphy well said old blarney I.have bought all his releases except weathered versions,and would support him before Others, track record speaks for it's self my rant over. Cheers john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junctionmad Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 I don't disagree with what's been said ,but I think it's nonsense to suggest we have done paddy Murphy a disservice by nor running out and buying everything he's made to date. In fact paddy I believe has little stock left. The dealers bought all he made. I think we need to shift Way from Rtr and look at good quality kits. This provides a solution to the issues of needing large numbers for Rtr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenderg Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 For the love of god, or whatever deity ye bow down to, will ye stop retiring Paddy Murphy before his time. I've heard so much crap in the last week as a result of this thread, you'd think he was bound for moo moo land. Second - have you lads any idea of the hundreds of thousands of euro he has tied up in craven coaches, 141's not to mind 201's. That money has to be released in order for him to live, and then feck about with other models. No businessman, no matter how much of a lunatic, is going to release a 121 until all the other crap has shifted. And no amount of crowdfunding aul ***** is going to help the man - if he was stuck for a few bob, he'd be the first person here looking for a dig out. Gonna take a long term break from this forum now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Blarney Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 I was not implying we have done a disservice to Paddy. I was stating a fact. There are a number of Murphy Models products held by retailers; Cravens, 071, 201, MKII etc. No retailer who wishes to stay in business, the magical, wishes to stay in business, will hold additional stock above a certain level, especially if their existing stock has not sold out. It's called CASH-FLOW. Money tied-up in stock that has not sold. Many a business has gone-to-the -wall by having too much stock on the shelf. Turnaround is required in business to stay in business. Emptying the shelf at the retailers will create a need. Old Blarney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BosKonay Posted November 29, 2014 Author Share Posted November 29, 2014 It tells you that 110 people are interested in "Crowd-funding" but, it does not tell you, which product, and in what quantity they will purchase. That was the sole purpose of the poll. A 'what if' experiment to take the temperature of the group, stir some debate (which it certainly has) and perhaps inspire some action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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