CIE Standard coach (laminate stock)

[GSR 800]

Look how far we have come lads, as Noel said 30 years ago the best we had was a bunch of Hornby stuff repainted in black n tan, now look. The diesel era is almost completely covered loco wise. Coaching stock from the bnt era is also almost complete. The steam era is far from complete, but with Des from SSM many of the main steamers can be modelled also along with coaching stock and freight. 3D printing is in its early years. With the launch of Irish railway models the future looks very promising. What will the scene be like in the next 30 years?

[Railer]

. What will the scene be like in the next 30 years?

 

Model ICRs and 29Ks everywhere.

[GSR 800]

Don't think many people will ever model that!

[Railer]

Don't think many people will ever model that!

 

There will be no choice for the new generation after us. They won't know about anything else bar a few 201s on Enterprise and Cork runs. I feel lucky in the fact that I have memories of the A class in their very last years and watching Bell liners in the evenings coming from Belfast to Northwall.

[Noel]

Model ICRs and 29Ks everywhere.

 

Beam me up scotty! ICRs, DMUs, Dart, Luas = Roller skate buses on rails - I prefer real trains hauled by an engine!

 

On a serious note though ICRs and DMUs don't seem to capture the imagination of todays youngsters so where does that leave the hobby in 30 years time? On the other hand there remains the "Thomas" effect, and the fact that men in the UK in their 40s are modelling steam trains that they never travelled on nor say except for movies and TV dramas.

[StevieB]

I agree that substituting the correct size wheels will make the coach sit a little higher but I think that this is far preferable to the sight of under sized wheels. Look at any photo of an Irish passenger prior to the introduction of the mk2d's and what do you see - an inconsistent roofline to say nothing of the bodyline. And anyway you can do something about the increased ride height - reduce the height of the rubbing plate. A few strokes with the right file and the height will come down to something that the eye will find acceptable.

 

Stephen

[Noel]

OK some higher res photos as requested in better light snapped with a camera.

 

 

IFM Laminate

 

Left to Right on platform: MM Craven, IFM Laminate, IFM Park Royal, SF GSV

Edited July 21, 2017 by Noel

[Noel]

I agree that substituting the correct size wheels will make the coach sit a little higher but I think that this is far preferable to the sight of under sized wheels. Look at any photo of an Irish passenger prior to the introduction of the mk2d's and what do you see - an inconsistent roofline to say nothing of the bodyline. And anyway you can do something about the increased ride height - reduce the height of the rubbing plate. A few strokes with the right file and the height will come down to something that the eye will find acceptable.

 

Stephen

 

I know what you mean, I do remember the wheels seeming quite large on Irish Coaches. But then do we go full circle and use 21mm track?

[StevieB]

They all appear to sit quite happily together, thereby recreating the Irish passenger train of days gone by.

 

Stephen

[GSR 800]

There will be no choice for the new generation after us. They won't know about anything else bar a few 201s on Enterprise and Cork runs. I feel lucky in the fact that I have memories of the A class in their very last years and watching Bell liners in the evenings coming from Belfast to Northwall.

 

Why would there be? I never saw the steam era and I am modelling it.

[Garfield]

On the contrary, I think a sizeable portion of hobbyists will choose this era. The reason Baby GMs, 201s, Mk2s, etc. are popular right now is because they're what a lot of us are familiar with, having grown up looking at them. I think nostalgia has a lot to do with it. Of course, there will always be a few who are more interested in the historical aspect and choose to model something from before their time, while some have interests which lie in the present day...

[GSR 800]

Only time will tell...

[Noel]

I watched a documentary some time ago about the history of model railways and it suggested that interest in the hobby started to fall off in the UK after the introduction of the HST 125 and everything looked the "same" and train movements became rather boring. It also credited "Thomas the Tank engine" on TV and later merchandising as the antidote which fostered renewed interest in the hobby from a new generation. The passage of time will reveal all.

[Glenderg]

The UK rail press have been on about this for years in their editorials, the fear that a PlayStation will nuke the hobby.

 

It's unlikely to ever happen as railway modelling, and not the armchair variety, is dynamic and physical. It provides a good skillset of how to overcome engineering challenges, electronics, artistic methods, history, photography, research and so on.

 

If I had my way, railway modelling would be a compulsory topic in secondary school. That said, you'd have add a module on personal hygiene

[Mayner]

Personally I'd have little interest in partial kits such as Worsley Works. A proper kit should supply all the bits needed including assorted transfers, glazing, wheels, bogies, under frame gear, couplings, interior layouts, door handles, grips, roof, vents, pipes, drains, steps, corridor connectors, etc. 'Matchstick' modelling seems more a relic of the 60s before plastics replaced metal - aka Rovex displacing Dublo.

 

The main issue is the limited demand for kits the majority of modellers appear to be prepared to pay a premium for a rtr Irish model regardless of quality of the finished article or whether a better model can be built from a kit.

 

The market for kits is a very small sub-sector of the market for Irish models. Etched kits tend to have a lower break-even point than resin or cast metal kits, the market for kits is split roughly 60/40 between Ireland and the UK.

 

The majority of customers in the UK model Irish railways tend to be builders rather than collectors a high proportion work to EM or S4 standards and prefer to select their own running gear, buffers, wheels, couplings.

 

Worsley Works business model producing etched parts only has a much lower break even point than a kit manufacturer and can produce a set of parts for a coach or Loco where there may not be enough demand to produce a kit or rtr model.

[Glenderg]

The main issue is the limited demand for kits the majority of modellers appear to be prepared to pay a premium for a rtr Irish model regardless of quality of the finished article or whether a better model can be built from a kit.

 

The market for kits is a very small sub-sector of the market for Irish models. Etched kits tend to have a lower break-even point than resin or cast metal kits, the market for kits is split roughly 60/40 between Ireland and the UK.

 

The majority of customers in the UK model Irish railways tend to be builders rather than collectors a high proportion work to EM or S4 standards and prefer to select their own running gear, buffers, wheels, couplings.

 

Worsley Works business model producing etched parts only has a much lower break even point than a kit manufacturer and can produce a set of parts for a coach or Loco where there may not be enough demand to produce a kit or rtr model.

 

 

Spot on john, and I can think of only a handful of people on this island that make up kits, diminishing the demand even more.

[Noel]

Life too seems busier than yesteryear with more pressure on time, folks working longer hours, commutes, demands of life, family, etc. It doesn't seem that long ago folks knew how to change a plug, put egg white in a leaky radiator to get a car home, use ladies nylons if a fan belt broke, or clean the contacts on a distributor cap if it got wet! Times move on, ladies don't wear nylons anymore, cars have electronic ignitions , cars only need light servicing every 30k, most folks never have to lift the bonnet of a car from the day they buy it to the day they sell it except to put windscreen washer in it. I guess its the same with model railways. Loss of time, loss of desire to kit build = loss of experience and skills, hence greater demand for RTR especially as there is now plenty of RTR available unlike 20 years ago. Also materials have moved on.

 

Another hobby of mine was RC aero modelling. I usually scratch built from plans, or the occasional kit, and then ARTFs and RTFs started dominating the scene 15 years ago, now hardly anybody builds anything, its now more of a 'fit out' operation - way of the modern world. Also there was a huge shift away from traditional materials such as balsa, spruce, and lite-ply, to modern materials such as fibreglass, carbon fibre composites, synthetic coverings and resin paints.

[Glenderg]

Ah here, this hobby isn't a playtex advert, all full of nostalgia for a bad piece of engineering that encloses a happy place. We're at the wondebra, embrace it.

[Blaine]

Life too seems busier than yesteryear with more pressure on time, folks working longer hours, commutes, demands of life, family, etc. It doesn't seem that long ago folks knew how to change a plug, put egg white in a leaky radiator to get a car home, use ladies nylons if a fan belt broke, or clean the contacts on a distributor cap if it got wet! Times move on, ladies don't wear nylons anymore, cars have electronic ignitions , cars only need light servicing every 30k, most folks never have to lift the bonnet of a car from the day they buy it to the day they sell it except to put windscreen washer in it. I guess its the same with model railways. Loss of time, loss of desire to kit build = loss of experience and skills, hence greater demand for RTR especially as there is now plenty of RTR available unlike 20 years ago. Also materials have moved on.

 

Another hobby of mine was RC aero modelling. I usually scratch built from plans, or the occasional kit, and then ARTFs and RTFs started dominating the scene 15 years ago, now hardly anybody builds anything, its now more of a 'fit out' operation - way of the modern world. Also there was a huge shift away from traditional materials such as balsa, spruce, and lite-ply, to modern materials such as fibreglass, carbon fibre composites, synthetic coverings and resin paints.

 

Give us all a break, your preaching to the converted

 

Look how far we have come lads, as Noel said 30 years ago the best we had was a bunch of Hornby stuff repainted in black n tan

 

You will will find that 30 years ago and before, like now people sat down and made what was not available, often to a very high standard. They didnt just make do. They wanted better and they got it.

[GSR 800]

Give us all a break, your preaching to the converted

 

 

 

You will will find that 30 years ago and before, like now people sat down and made what was not available, often to a very high standard. They didnt just make do. They wanted better and they got it.

I'm not saying they made do. I am talking about what was available RTR 30 years ago. I am well aware of excellent kit built and scratchbuilt models, Cyril Frys brilliant models being an example of this

[jhb171achill]

When I was in my early teens, I stuck paper sides on Hornby Mk 1s with CIE type carriage designs. That was about as good as it got 45 years ago!

[Riversuir226]

Life too seems busier than yesteryear with more pressure on time, folks working longer hours, commutes, demands of life, family, etc. It doesn't seem that long ago folks knew how to change a plug, put egg white in a leaky radiator to get a car home, use ladies nylons if a fan belt broke, or clean the contacts on a distributor cap if it got wet! Times move on, ladies don't wear nylons anymore, cars have electronic ignitions , cars only need light servicing every 30k, most folks never have to lift the bonnet of a car from the day they buy it to the day they sell it except to put windscreen washer in it. I guess its the same with model railways. Loss of time, loss of desire to kit build = loss of experience and skills, hence greater demand for RTR especially as there is now plenty of RTR available unlike 20 years ago. Also materials have moved on.

 

Another hobby of mine was RC aero modelling. I usually scratch built from plans, or the occasional kit, and then ARTFs and RTFs started dominating the scene 15 years ago, now hardly anybody builds anything, its now more of a 'fit out' operation - way of the modern world. Also there was a huge shift away from traditional materials such as balsa, spruce, and lite-ply, to modern materials such as fibreglass, carbon fibre composites, synthetic coverings and resin paints.

 

Noel, i work 60 hours a week, have a young family and do the long commute. Can usually build and finish a kit or scratchbuild within the week & i consider myself an average modeller so i don t think that excuse washes to be honest.

Bottom line for €50 plus i expect decent instructions for a decent kit, the ifm park royal kit was neither. I shouldn t have to dig through the net for decent prototype pics to work out were the basic detail thats included in the kit is located.

Times have moved on, silly mistakes, lack of basic detail shouldn t be accepted. As blaine put it a basic park royal rtr costs the same as 2 highly detailed cravens it shouldn t be that way lads.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Riversuir226

[irishthump]

You will will find that 30 years ago and before, like now people sat down and made what was not available, often to a very high standard. They didnt just make do. They wanted better and they got it.

 

 

Yes, but once again you forget the huge number of modellers who don't have the necessary skill, time or inclination to build their own models from kits or from scratch.

These people will happily pay for RTR models and will accept any detail discrepancies, minor or major.

 

You point out that 30 years ago they made what wasn't available. I would argue that the improvement of RTR model has probably sustained interest in the hobby, making it accessibly to many people who would otherwise not attempt railway modelling due to a lack of modelling skill.

[Riversuir226]

Yes, but once again you forget the huge number of modellers who don't have the necessary skill, time or inclination to build their own models from kits or from scratch.

These people will happily pay for RTR models and will accept any detail discrepancies, minor or major.

 

You point out that 30 years ago they made what wasn't available. I would argue that the improvement of RTR model has probably sustained interest in the hobby, making it accessibly to many people who would otherwise not attempt railway modelling due to a lack of modelling skill.

 

But why accept basic expensive rtr models when the standards today are so much higher? I want a rake of fertiliser wagons and have done since before mir ceased trading but i won t buy the alternatives as they don t meet the standard that i expect for that kinda money. Had the opportunity to buy a rake of them a few years ago and i wasn t impressed at all. For 80 yoyos a model i expect a certain standard.

If people keep supporting these models at this level of detailing etc then thats what they ll get into the future.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Riversuir226

[skinner75]

But why accept basic expensive rtr models when the standards today are so much higher? I want a rake of fertiliser wagons and have done since before mir ceased trading but i won t buy the alternatives as they don t meet the standard that i expect for that kinda money. Had the opportunity to buy a rake of them a few years ago and i wasn t impressed at all. For 80 yoyos a model i expect a certain standard.

If people keep supporting these models at this level of detailing etc then thats what they ll get into the future.

 

 

Well then - go build your own to your own high standards if that's the way you feel.

Perhaps other peoples standards aren't as high as your own - doesn't mean they should listen to you and boycott whoever, just so they will produce a higher standard rtr model for you to buy

[Garfield]

Only time will tell...

 

I watched a documentary some time ago about the history of model railways and it suggested that interest in the hobby started to fall off in the UK after the introduction of the HST 125 and everything looked the "same" and train movements became rather boring. It also credited "Thomas the Tank engine" on TV and later merchandising as the antidote which fostered renewed interest in the hobby from a new generation. The passage of time will reveal all.

 

Time is already telling, gents. The UK manufacturers are churning out a lot of modern image products and the simple reason for that is because it's being hoovered up by customers. Also, if you look at the UK exhibition circuit (not to mention the magazines), you'll see a lot of layouts set in the modern day. See also Murphy's NIR 11s, IE grey 071s, Intercity 201s, etc.

[Warbonnet]

Can we calm down please gents. The Irish Freight Models is available to those who wish to buy it and are happy with the product. Best of luck to them with it. There are alternative routes out there for those who wish to pursue them in the present and possibly in the future too. I dont think much more can be discussed on the subject really!

[Noel]

Not too sure about "often to a very high standard". Some of it may have been an admirable accomplishment but often pretty coarse looking.

 

Yes, but once again you forget the huge number of modellers who don't have the necessary skill, time or inclination to build their own models from kits or from scratch.

These people will happily pay for RTR models and will accept any detail discrepancies, minor or major.

 

You point out that 30 years ago they made what wasn't available. I would argue that the improvement of RTR model has probably sustained interest in the hobby, making it accessibly to many people who would otherwise not attempt railway modelling due to a lack of modelling skill.

 

I tend to agree. I'm one of those. It was the superb MM RTR products that attracted me back into the hobby after a long break.

 

But why accept basic expensive rtr models when the standards today are so much higher? ... snip ... If people keep supporting these models at this level of detailing etc then thats what they ll get into the future.

 

There is no right nor wrong, just different opinions, different tastes, and different expectations. All equally valid. If I can explain. I intend to keep buying from sources such as SF and IFM because I personally have found them to be of a reasonable standard and look well "enough" for me behind MM locos. They are without doubt way better than anything I could ever build from a kit. IMHO, it seems unrealistic to compare the cost of coaches from of a production run of 8000 units, with the cost from small volume producers, and certainly unrealistic to expect the same level of detail.

 

If MM were producing Park Royals and Laminates in volume I would expect a notch up in detail, but just a notch. MM are not infallible either, IMHO the colour of the mk2d stock has been way off the prototype. The 2ft rule doesn't help when colour is way off, but it does help if windows are not flush glazed or door handles are absent. In the end of the day its about choice and these small producers of RTR stock make models available that enough folk want to run on their layouts. Enough folk have voted with their feet and 'wallets'

 

It's ironic that this discussion is actually a symptom of the variety and choice of Irish RTR stock now available - but a dream only 20 years ago. How our expectations have risen? Lets blame MM for raising the bar so high.

 

PS: Apologies Warbonnet, posts crossed as I was typing and took a few phone calls.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Noel

[Riversuir226]

Well then - go build your own to your own high standards if that's the way you feel.

Perhaps other peoples standards aren't as high as your own - doesn't mean they should listen to you and boycott whoever, just so they will produce a higher standard rtr model for you to buy

 

Didn t say boycott, i like others on here who have bought items of this company have every right to complain if a model doesn t meet expectations. I gave my honest opinion on the kit which im quite entitled to make, no point in saying there great when there not. As for the last part i ll buy high standard models of any producer if it fits into my modelling timescale.

[Junctionmad]

As someone who grew up with hobby struggling with whitemetal, brass and finally plastikard , ending up scratch building wagons I liked the look off , I find this " argument " very " first world "

 

The fact is rtr is never going to represent the best this hobby can do, good scratch builders will always do better . Those looking for a " fine scale" model will never find it in rtr. There are too many compromises. So be happy with what u have got. If you want " better" teach yourself the skills to detail models etc. The other thing is this hobby isn't a race. It can take you all your life to build a detailed replica of the original,if that is your goal.

[Glenderg]

The fact is rtr is never going to represent the best this hobby can do, good scratch builders will always do better .

 

Where can I get a bag of whatever you're smoking please, it seems to have real mind altering properties!

[Blaine]

Where can I get a bag of whatever you're smoking please, it seems to have real mind altering properties!

 

Hope its a big bag!! Love some myself!

 

RTR is most of the time down to cost. The quality has improved greatly in the last 10-15 years

 

Scratchbuilt is down or up to a certain level - the modellers level

 

If something thats RTR is not up to a certain standard people will complain. We are past the stage of 'OMG Irish RTR models' if it is not good enough people will make this known. There have been plenty of disgruntled British outline modellers when certain high profile and expensive models have not met expectations and this has forced the manufacturer to alter the product. This needs to happen here. If its a kit you can make it to your own standard. My MIR 111's had the majority of the whitemetal parts staying in the box and at least half of the resin on the body being removed. Built to my standard and a lot of people liked it

 

There is a very clear split visible on this thread......those who enjoy collecting and operating models and those who strive for better. Each has their own view but me being in the latter camp I will always want more. For €100 RTR I want the right colour, correct detail,flush glazing, injection moulded plastic and free running - at the very least. Ive found little things that can be done to any Murphy Models loco and make a vast improvement in appearance. Making the best better...

 

From the opinions Im getting the new IRM ballast wagons could have been 3d printed and sold in equally good numbers

 

Ill respect the moderators wishes for a fair argument and not get personal but some people here really need to get a grip.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Blaine

[Junctionmad]

Where can I get a bag of whatever you're smoking please, it seems to have real mind altering properties!

 

You think say Tony mills 21mm models with working inside Valve gear would be beaten by rtr. Hah

[Junctionmad]

rom the opinions Im getting the new IRM ballast wagons could have been 3d printed and sold in equally good numbers

Current 3D printing can't come anywhere near the precision and detail of injection moulding and remain affordable by mere mortals. But the model could be wrong is any material

 

But the fact is , that people will buy whatever they buy. The purchaser decides. If you don't like the quality don't buy it.

 

Critism of certain suppliers is very misplaced. It's your choice to support that model by purchasing it or not. Post purchase critism is a bit rich, especially from people that wouldn't buy it in the first place

Edited November 10, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Blaine]

You think say Tony mills 21mm models with working inside Valve gear would be beaten by rtr. Hah

 

If there was enough of a market for that in RTR then there would be. Most would not want it or not be willing to pay for it.