IRM Fert Wagon

[jhb171achill]

The ones with the mesh doors were experimental. Not sure how many were built like that, but not many, and they didn't go into general service like that. This was an era of several types of experimental wagons, like the long-wheelbase four wheeled "sundries van", and another type seen in this video with opening upwards side doors.

Interesting video; like Bullied's sometimes odd ideas, another "might have been".

As an aside, imagine a layout of might-have-beens; turf burners in general use, all sorts of oddball freight stock, rebuilt steam locos in into the 1970s, modern versions of Drumm trains, and express 4.6.2T locos (the proposed 820 class, of which possibly five were planned)......and weird German diesels all over the GNR!

[Garfield]

18 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

......and weird German diesels all over the GNR!

Or possibly even electrics!

Some British firms also submitted proposals to the GNR, with one design looking suspiciously similar to the ill-fated BR class 17...

[jhb171achill]

There’s one for IRM; a RTR “weird German diesel” in black’n’tan.....

[Noel]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

There’s one for IRM; a RTR “weird German diesel” in black’n’tan.....

Oder Black'und'Tan!  

[JasonB]

3 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

No. 

So you're not ruling it out as a possibility Fran 

[Mayner]

15 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The ones with the mesh doors were experimental. Not sure how many were built like that, but not many, and they didn't go into general service like that.

Its possible that some of bogie fertiliser wagons entered service with mesh doors and were subsequently retro fitted with ply doors. It might be worth trawling through IRRS Journals from the era for photos and information.

The bogie wagons were initially nicknamed "Long Kesh wagons" by railway men, on account of the mesh doors, to distinguish them from the existing "Back to Back" fertiliser trains made up of 4w flats with open containers.

[Noel]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Its possible that some of bogie fertiliser wagons entered service with mesh doors and were subsequently retro fitted with ply doors. It might be worth trawling through IRRS Journals from the era for photos and information.

The bogie wagons were initially nicknamed "Long Kesh wagons" by railway men, on account of the mesh doors, to distinguish them from the existing "Back to Back" fertiliser trains made up of 4w flats with open containers.

Interesting, I never realised some had mesh doors until I saw the video clips. It struck me it was quite nice to be able to see the inventory through the mesh sides.  Can't imagine how it could be modelled through.

[jhb171achill]

It Is indeed possible, though if so I'd say only a very short time.

This is very likely to be the reason that uniquely, as far as I'm aware, numbers were carried on wagon ends.

Edited August 1, 2018 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Fresh from an afternoon visit today to IRM Towers (thanks for the sticky buns, folks!) I can confirm, as if it’s needed, how truly superb this range of models are, and the huge planning that goes into making them....

Naturally, I melted Glenderg’s and Garfield’s heads about my own pet wish lists!

[DiveController]

Very interesting to see the fertilizer wagons in that film with mesh doors. It seems like they must’ve entered the service cfor some period of time to be called Long Kesh wagons.

Edited August 2, 2018 by DiveController
Question deleted it as already answered

[DiveController]

9 hours ago, Noel said:

Interesting, I never realised some had mesh doors until I saw the video clips. It struck me it was quite nice to be able to see the inventory through the mesh sides.  Can't imagine how it could be modelled through.

Sounds like the same problem of modeling mesh grilles on Baby GMs etc, mechanical and manufacturing tolerances etc. 

[Glenderg]

The mesh doors were a weight saving device, initially, but...if you see the weird CIE logo tack welded onto to the door? It was never a prototype, or a test, it was a full on design destined to work. 

Problem was that forklifts and humans bumped into these mesh doors all the time, and within a few weeks they were wrecked and would get gummed up in the slotted door system. Same with the chains that were used as a handrail. These were ditched after a short time too. They didn't even start with the bars in the centre to prevent double loading of the pallets. 

It's amazing what you find after spending weeks looking at fuzzy photos, and working out the why and where of these things. Like the straw coloured roundel, for instance, and I'm not taking the mick JHB! 

Richie. 

[jhb171achill]

Update on that; having left Chateau IRM, I proceeded to the Faraway Lands of my colleague, Barry Carse. 

Like myself, BC is of the opinion that the mesh doors were not in general use; his belief is that possibly only one was like that initially, my thoughts being similar. I would say that it may well be that perhaps one or two migh have been. But having seen a few on the production line, it is definite that the vast majority were built new with solid doors, and we would also say that whatever one or two were initially fitted with them, lost them almost immediately. I never heard of them in traffic like that - but I can't say they didn't.

I saw a line of new ones one time  - I cannot remember where, and as was so often the case, I had no camera with me. I suspect it was North Wall or Inchicore. They were "straight out if the IRM box", and all had solid doors. All had the CIE roundel on the second door from left when new, though door swoops during their lives could vary that. Once, I saw one with logos on two doors - the 2nd and 3rd doors! Occasionally, one with no logo.

After 1987, of course, when IE came into being, logos were gone on virtually all wagon repaints, the exceptions being some PW and departmental stock. No ferts ever carried the IE "set of points" logo.

Regarding the colour of the CIE logo, the cream or buff colour shown in so many photos was a white one badly weathered. Cream-coloured CIE yokes existed, and were applied to buses, but these were transfers. The plywood panelling on freight stock - anything from ferts to "H" vans - was too rough to take transfers. All logos on wagons were always painted or stencilled, and from the onset on the brown wagon livery about 1970/1, only white was used.

Sometimes wagon numbers were renewed on ferts, but older doors fitted to replace, maybe, a damaged one. If the replacement door had a logo, it might be old and weathered a light brown or nondescript colour, while the wagon had a cleaner number. It might look as if they're different colours, but under the grime they weren't. Thus, on a model, there would be a clear distinction between a crisp and clear buff-coloured logo, and a weathered one originally white.

Nothing white on any railway stayed that way long. This, indeed, prompts me to utter some ramblings about paint weathering in general - if I get time, I'll post something separate later today.....

Edited August 2, 2018 by jhb171achill

[Dead Kennedy]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:55 PM, Warbonnet said:

The issue with that is that we will make a lot more HUOs than 42ft flats that will use these buffers and bogies. As we are doing later iterations of the flat for the spoils, weedsprayer and guinness kegs for example it narrows the focus of these buffers to some liner flats and some ferts and the ridemaster bogies to some flats only, especially as we already have the buffers and bogies tooled as part of the Tara wagon which was built into this overall plan (the flats were always going to be a follow on from the Tara as we first planned it) As I have said it is being considered, but we dont know if the sums add up just yet. It will also delay the project as they will need to be designed and measured. We also see that the demand for supertrain era stock, which these buffers and bogies would fall into, is less than later era, so we have to ask ourselves; "will they sell?". This is down to the experience of what we have sold so far, and our previous customer survey. 

Would it not make sense if you producing in volumes of 500 to split as follows: IE 200, IR 200 and CIE 100?

[Warbonnet]

7 minutes ago, Dead Kennedy said:

Would it not make sense if you producing in volumes of 500 to split as follows: IE 200, IR 200 and CIE 100?

Our minimum order quantity per running number / livery is 250. Hence it has to be this way!

Cheers,

Fran

[Dead Kennedy]

Ok, Thank you. 

[Dead Kennedy]

Fran, i think it would be interesting from a marketing point of view to see what the share of interest is at this stage now that IRMs products are up and running like a Jamaican sprinter. I certainly was never polled originally, and as IRM have referred to, a number of people have bought IR/IE because they thought they'd be the only options available and purchased superb models which they could amend - is this giving a false notion of the market share?

Some peoples' golden era was the last years of very battered diesel/ freight motion in Ireland, aka IE but please bear in mind many precious memories preceeded these times for those a bit older: branch lines, signal boxes, CIE innovation in design (which it gets very little credit for) before sterility set in. IE & IR were patch ups of what was left, a few white lines added to cover over in many cases vandalism, wear and tear and little maintenance/ neglect/ cost cutting etc. When i saw the advert in the paper splitting CIE into different entities in the 1980s, like the railway system at the time, the present and future died for me railway-wise.  I think it would be worth while trying a poll on a as not yet produced model on this site to see what would be peoples true 1st choice, e.g. era of A or C Class people would want.

Many have bought ballasts, plough vans etc now and have either modified or do not have the money to spend again on a similiar item. This is fuelling the (in my view) misconception that CIE era lags behind IR & IE in interest. I also know of other modellers who do not use or have moved off this ( in my view excellent & informative) website due to personality issues etc who would collect CIE, there may be far more support out there than you assume but you have not heard their voices?

Alan

[NIRCLASS80]

More importantly is the Ferts still looking ok for delivery before Christmas or is that wishful thinking. It's just I can get the better half to buy me some for a present!!

[JasonB]

24 minutes ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

More importantly is the Ferts still looking ok for delivery before Christmas or is that wishful thinking. It's just I can get the better half to buy me some for a present!!

Now here's a man talking sense. I like your thinking 

[Sails]

I would be okay waiting until Q1 '19, between the Tara Mines and other UK stuff coming out, I'm pretty well knee deep in 00 gauge debt.

[John-r]

Jayus. I didn't realise it was so close ,. better start throwing the hints out, thanks for the heads up lads,

It  is a great way  of getting Christmas and birthday presents in all fairness , I've did for the last number of years.

[Warbonnet]

4 hours ago, Dead Kennedy said:

Fran, i think it would be interesting from a marketing point of view to see what the share of interest is at this stage now that IRMs products are up and running like a Jamaican sprinter. I certainly was never polled originally, and as IRM have referred to, a number of people have bought IR/IE because they thought they'd be the only options available and purchased superb models which they could amend - is this giving a false notion of the market share?

Some peoples' golden era was the last years of very battered diesel/ freight motion in Ireland, aka IE but please bear in mind many precious memories preceeded these times for those a bit older: branch lines, signal boxes, CIE innovation in design (which it gets very little credit for) before sterility set in. IE & IR were patch ups of what was left, a few white lines added to cover over in many cases vandalism, wear and tear and little maintenance/ neglect/ cost cutting etc. When i saw the advert in the paper splitting CIE into different entities in the 1980s, like the railway system at the time, the present and future died for me railway-wise.  I think it would be worth while trying a poll on a as not yet produced model on this site to see what would be peoples true 1st choice, e.g. era of A or C Class people would want.

Many have bought ballasts, plough vans etc now and have either modified or do not have the money to spend again on a similiar item. This is fuelling the (in my view) misconception that CIE era lags behind IR & IE in interest. I also know of other modellers who do not use or have moved off this ( in my view excellent & informative) website due to personality issues etc who would collect CIE, there may be far more support out there than you assume but you have not heard their voices?

Alan

Hi Alan,

Many thanks for that. You make some good points. We offered the survey through several channels, not only here. We had it on our FB page, which was then shared in numerous of the big FB groups over there, RMWeb, email mailshot to our registered customers and was a news item in all the modeling magazines. The response was huge considering the market so we would stand by it as accurate. It’s not all we have based the assumption on, it’s also sales of items such as the Orange bubbles. 

Anyway, as the CIE plough testifies, we’re backing CIE era, of which sales have been okay so far. It’s no real secret that CIE ballasts are coming next year, blue Tara’s will appear too, and CIE ferts and items like B&I and Bell liners will fit the CIE era too over the next 12-24 months. I don’t see how we can back it any more than that tbh! 

At the end of the day the biggest indicator of what era is most popular is sales. If these CIE era models sell, we’ll back the era as well as we plan to next year for years to come!

As for Ferts, end of the year is still on course! Start dropping those hints! 

Cheers,

Fran

[DiveController]

6 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

 It’s no real secret that CIE ballasts are coming next year, blue Tara’s will appear too, and CIE ferts and items like B&I and Bell liners will fit the CIE era too over the next 12-24 months. I don’t see how we can back it any more than that tbh!

Barytes and Mogul zinc rakes if you’re stuck for ideas? 

(To be fair I’ve just finally got to read through @jhb171achill Rails thro’ North Kerry and what magnificent pictures of specialist wagons not seen anywhere but on Irish rails, great lineside too)

Of course we’ll need the barytes to have the opening doors to allow the JCB to bulldoze the ore

Now sales are visible on the IRM site I’d say the orange bubbles have done pretty well considering they were launched last, ivory bubbles having sold out in the order they were presented on the website A through D. E, F packs will sell out I’m sure. 

Really looking forward to B&I liners, and Bell of course. Well done IRM!

[Noel]

9 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Alan,

Many thanks for that. You make some good points. We offered the survey through several channels, not only here. We had it on our FB page, which was then shared in numerous of the big FB groups over there, RMWeb, email mailshot to our registered customers and was a news item in all the modeling magazines. The response was huge considering the market so we would stand by it as accurate. It’s not all we have based the assumption on, it’s also sales of items such as the Orange bubbles. 

Anyway, as the CIE plough testifies, we’re backing CIE era, of which sales have been okay so far. It’s no real secret that CIE ballasts are coming next year, blue Tara’s will appear too, and CIE ferts and items like B&I and Bell liners will fit the CIE era too over the next 12-24 months. I don’t see how we can back it any more than that tbh! 

At the end of the day the biggest indicator of what era is most popular is sales. If these CIE era models sell, we’ll back the era as well as we plan to next year for years to come!

As for Ferts, end of the year is still on course! Start dropping those hints! 

Cheers,

Fran

Hi Fran

Worth bearing in mind that due age profile demographics in the hobby, there may be a significant 'cohort' who have not participated in online surveys (i.e. not involved in social networking nor FB).  This 'cohort' may have a nostalgic leaning towards other eras that the survey field may not have picked up.  For some of a certain age group pencil and paper is still king!  A clipboard or paper survey across age profiles at shows may yield more accurate data for the marketing and strategic planning dept!  

Noel

Edited August 19, 2018 by Noel
lexdysia again

[Warbonnet]

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Hi Fran

Worth bearing in mind that due age profile demographics in the hobby, there may be a significant 'cohort' who have not participated in online surveys (i.e. not involved in social networking nor FB).  This 'cohort' may have a nostalgic leaning towards other eras that the survey field may not have picked up.  For some of a certain age group pencil and paper is still king!  A clipboard or paper survey across age profiles at shows may yield more accurate data for the marketing and strategic planning dept!  

Noel

As I said Noel sales is the biggest KPI so the proof will be in those figures. I’m really hoping that I’m going to be proved wrong, believe me!

Anyway, since we have shown that IRM is going to spoil the CIE era enthusiast in the coming year, I think it’s best to move back to this topic being about the fert and leave the CIE topic to rest for now.

Cheers,

Fran

[jhb171achill]

Update on ferts and mesh doors, following a little research - several only were trialled like this but it wasn’t practical, so it is likely all went into traffic with solid doors. IF any saw use with mesh doors, it was very short lived and confined to a very small number of examples.

[Railer]

Another modeling option 

 

[Noel]

Fascinating combination one great find. Post the GNR steam era, NIR did ugly rolling stock better than any other company on these islands. I might try a few cement bubbles behind a 2600 class AEC railcar on the layout for fun.

[leslie10646]

Not at all, Noel, try them behind a grey J15!

Well done Railer for finding that one - the equivalent of an original C Class pulling the fertiliser. I'm quite surprised that it moved them!

[NIRCLASS80]

I need 10 IRM ferts now!  

[Railer]

9 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

- the equivalent of an original C Class pulling the fertiliser. I'm quite surprised that it moved them!

I believe they're empties in that shot. No way would it have moved that lot if they were loaded.

[BosKonay]

25 minutes ago, Railer said:

I believe they're empties in that shot. No way would it have moved that lot if they were loaded.

Correct Railer 

[Mayner]

23 hours ago, Railer said:

Another modeling option 

 

Reminds me of my first visit to Northern Ireland  a 70 Class special with River Maine & a driving trailer from York Road to Whitehead & Antrim with lunch stop at Whitehead, an extremely enjoyable day.

Although the 70 Class had the same power unit, generator and traction motors as the 80 Class they (70 Class) appear to have been considered to be "more powerful" by railway staff than the more modern units and treated and used as locomotives rather than railcars. 

There is a photo in Diesel Dawn of a 9 coach Portrush special made up of a 5 Car 70 Class set (2 power cars) hauiling 4 de-engined MPD railcars near Ballinderry on the hilly Lisburn-Antrim line

[NIRCLASS80]

Any update of how the IRM ferts are coming along?

[Warbonnet]

28 minutes ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

Any update of how the IRM ferts are coming along?

We're getting there Gareth, but without a real one it proved to be the stumbling block in the whole 42 ft project and held it up somewhat. But, finally, we have all the data we need so it should be not too far after the liners.

Cheers!

Fran