JM Design rtr GSR/Ranks Bulk Grain and Irish Standard Open Wagons

[Dunluce Castle]

Brilliant announcement and I hope things take off!

[DiveController]

We discussed Ranks wagons before including the possible livery variations but it took me a little while to find the tread which i feel is worth reviewing

[Mayner]

To re-iterate, I am considering commissioning these wagons with IRM facilitating manufacture and European sales and distribution, its intended to market and sell the models under the JM Design branding. This tread and the survey is to assist in gauging the level of interest in the wagons before deciding whether or not to proceed further with the project, due to uncertainties about the potential level of demand for traditional Irish wagons against the background of the uncertainties of the current World environment.

Anyway back to the wagons, the artwork for the grain wagons are based on photos of actual wagons, unfortunately we have been unable to find a colour photo of a Ranks wagon. 

The GSR built 12 bulk grain wagons 16400-16411 for company service in 1935.

The 8 Ranks wagons Ranks 1-8 GSR PO registration numbers M183-190 were built in 1938 for traffic between Limerick & Clara, but used from the 1960s onwards for traffic between North Wall Boyle and Ballysodare.

The Ranks wagons appear to have operated in grey with white lettering 1938-48 & from 1963 and in bright red with white letters between 1948-1963, a recently re-painted wagon in a 1950s photo appears to have black solebars and running gear although Drew Donaldson's model has red solebars.

This information is based on drawings & notes by Herbert Richards and 1935 Locomotive Magazine article on the wagons.

The wagons appear to have been used along with CIE built wagons  for bulk grain traffic from Gorey and possibly Enniscorthy to Ballysodare and Ardee during the final years of bulk grain traffic.

Ranks built a large grain elevator complex at Dock Road Limerick and elevators at Clara  following their take over of Goodbodies milling operations and entry to the Irish market during the 1930s, bulk grain wagons appear to have been loaded/unloaded in the ex GSWR Yard at Careys Road Limerick, the elevators at Clara were served by a private siding with a connection from the ex GSWR goods yard.

 

[leslie10646]

At the risk of being thrown out of the IRRS, attached is a Lance King slide which shows the Clara elevators.

Lance took this shot during the Society's Clara Branch railtour.

No.151 at Clara (GSWR) in 1962. The grain elevators which John refers to can be clearly seen.  Copyright Irish Railway Record Society.

[Lambeg man]

Just some personal thoughts......

On 5/29/2020 at 2:23 AM, Mayner said:

The wagons appear to have been used along with CIE built wagons  for bulk grain traffic from Gorey and possibly Enniscorthy to Ballysodare and Ardee during the final years of bulk grain traffic.

I am minded that in April 1973 the 'Railway Modeller' produced an article on the "Malahide" layout built by the North Dublin Model Railway Group, which featured RANKS grain wagons in one of their goods trains. Until Mayner's last post no one appears to mention if they ever appeared on GNR metals. Yet somewhere at the back of my brain I have an image of them photographed at Monanghan? Not sure why my tortured brain as this image...

While I wish the project every success I for one will not be pitching into this one........ Unless a photo of some of them going through Lisburn appears....   

[patrick]

The grain hoppers served an elevator at Ardee which was the terminus of a short branch from Dromin Junction which was North of Drogheda on the Dublin Belfast line. Dromin Junction was also featured on the Malahide layout so the wagons would have been appropriate. Incidentally are there any photos of the layout out there? I saw it once on exhibit at Shannon airport in the seventies but never saw the Railway Modeller article.

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

Just some personal thoughts......

I am minded that in April 1973 the 'Railway Modeller' produced an article on the "Malahide" layout built by the North Dublin Model Railway Group, which featured RANKS grain wagons in one of their goods trains. Until Mayner's last post no one appears to mention if they ever appeared on GNR metals. Yet somewhere at the back of my brain I have an image of them photographed at Monanghan? Not sure why my tortured brain as this image...

While I wish the project every success I for one will not be pitching into this one........ Unless a photo of some of them going through Lisburn appears....   

I saw that photograph of the grain wagons in Monaghan, I wonder if they were routed via Inney Junction or over the INW from Dundalk.

I ordered a copy of the Modeller with the Malahide article about two months ago but hasn't arrived yet.

The layout was on long term display in the Kilkenny Shop in Dawson Street during the late 70s early 80s, I used to  visit the layout and Southern Model Railways in the Grafton Arcade whenever I had an excuse to go in to "town".

Both stations were nicely modelled stock was a mixture of 1950s era steam and black and tan era CIE. Trains included a steam hauled Enterprise with a scratchbuilt Compound by Harry Connaughton & GNR coaches, an Ar hauled bulk cement train, an ex GSWR D2 4-4-0 & DSER J8 0-6-0 with plasticard bodies on Triang-(Hornby) chassis and a mixture of scratchbuilt and modified rtr passenger stock and goods wagons incl a CIE AEC railcar set in black and tan.

 

 

[Irishswissernie]

There appear to be 3 grain wagons in this enlargment of a photo taken by Henry Emeleus at Monaghan in March 1959< They appear in other photos at Monaghan in my GNRI album on flickr  

[leslie10646]

Thanks for posting this, Ernie. Monaghan isn't far from Portadown, so maybe I need MORE of these hoppers?

An interesting photo of the period after the GNR had finished and CIE ran a service over the stub of the Irish North within the State.

 

10 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

While I wish the project every success I for one will not be pitching into this one........ Unless a photo of some of them going through Lisburn appears....   

I saw one on the Lisburn Road, Mr Lambeg.

In model form.

In Drew's workshop......

Ah, maybe that doesn't count?

[Richard EH]

Hi John

This is a really interesting development, as a GN modeller, the open wagon is of interest. Yes, it's pricey, for sure - it'd be easier to keep each unit at around the £50 mark, as £100 is a big lump in one go....!

I'll fill in the survey, good luck with the venture!

Richard.

[jhb171achill]

11 hours ago, Mayner said:

 .......Trains included a steam hauled Enterprise with a scratchbuilt Compound by Harry Connaughton & GNR coaches, an Ar hauled bulk cement train, an ex GSWR D2 4-4-0 & DSER J8 0-6-0 with plasticard bodies on Triang-(Hornby) chassis and a mixture of scratchbuilt and modified rtr passenger stock and goods wagons incl a CIE AEC railcar set in black and tan.

 

I wonder if that is the compound now among the stored Malahide Castle models? There's a rake of matching GNR coaches with them too. There's also a rake of bubbles.

And I wonder what became of the rest of those models?

[murrayec]

23 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

And I wonder what became of the rest of those models?

In my discussions with chaps that worked on the Castle Layout they sadly reported that 'dubious transactions' abounded in the later days of the layout's life........

Eoin

[Mayner]

40 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

 

I wonder if that is the compound now among the stored Malahide Castle models? There's a rake of matching GNR coaches with them too. There's also a rake of bubbles.

And I wonder what became of the rest of those models?

The Malahide and Dromin Junction was 4mm Scale OO Gauge built in the late 1960s early 70s presumably the original locos and stock were retained by the original owners when the layout was retired in the 1980s

[jhb171achill]

Ah - so 00 gauge, not 0.

Some of the "Castle" models will be going on display in due course at the new place, but obviously the main emphasis at the moment is to get all of Fry's stuff displayed.

There is now agreement to make more display cabinets so that his British (mostly LNWR) and mainland European stuff can also be displayed. We'll see what space there is after that! Some of the "Castle" models will be loaned out to other locations for display in the meantime, so that as much as possible may be seen by the public.

Among Fry's stuff are a small number of items he owned and operated, but didn't make himself. There is a six-car 1930s express diesel railcar set made by Lionel, but painted by Fry in Union Pacific colours - a beauty! Given that he repainted it, I wonder what its original appearance was like - anyone know?

He made a model of a Swedish steam tram loco, a Norwegian sleeping car....I could go on.

[WRENNEIRE]

Anything like it in here JHB?

http://catalogs.lionel.com/2020/BB/

[jhb171achill]

52 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Anything like it in here JHB?

http://catalogs.lionel.com/2020/BB/

No - I had a look.

I’ll post a pic of it tomorrow or the next day.

[Mayner]

17 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Thanks for posting this, Ernie. Monaghan isn't far from Portadown, so maybe I need MORE of these hoppers?

An interesting photo of the period after the GNR had finished and CIE ran a service over the stub of the Irish North within the State.

 

I saw one on the Lisburn Road, Mr Lambeg.

In model form.

In Drew's workshop......

Ah, maybe that doesn't count?

I guess we might have to consider a rtr GNR(I) bogie Bulk Grain/Guinness wagon.

I seem to "have a thing" about bulk grain wagons, I scratchbuilt an O Gauge one in tin plate on a Triang Big-Big Train chassis for the 1st MRSI O gauge layout many moons ago.

[Galteemore]

Nice prospect, John. Tony Ragg has built a rather splendid one which I have seen at a show. Oddly, this is one of the easier ones for 7mm as Alphagraphix have a card kit to work off - and also produce suitable w/m bogie frames. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Galteemore

[Irishswissernie]

Although described by the photographer as a Grain wagon this appears to be one of the 20T bogie wagons that was not converted, ie. no side hatches, ladder over the 'doors' and roof hatches. It appears to be in a rake of cement vans so probably in use for that.

402 Belfast Grosvenor Rd, Bogie Grain van 1706 + CIE vans. 17Mar65  M Shannon/DR Dunn Collection

 

 

[Mike 84C]

Hi John, agree about the fascination for grain wagons, maybe because I worked for Ranks agriculture division before it was sold to Dalgety. The red and black is the same livery as our trucks were painted. I cannot remember RHM  owning grain wagons this side of the pond.  They were a good firm to work for a " dead men's shoes job".

 In Ernie's Monaghan photo there's at least five grain wagons  2/3 CIE H van conversions behind the first two hoppers. You can see the ladder that reached the roof hatches on two of them.

[flange lubricator]

2 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

Although described by the photographer as a Grain wagon this appears to be one of the 20T bogie wagons that was not converted, ie. no side hatches, ladder over the 'doors' and roof hatches. It appears to be in a rake of cement vans so probably in use for that.

402 Belfast Grosvenor Rd, Bogie Grain van 1706 + CIE vans. 17Mar65  M Shannon/DR Dunn Collection

 

 

Great picture the h van to the right marked 'cement only ' is an ex GNR (I) van 

 

[leslie10646]

2 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

 

 In Ernie's Monaghan photo there's at least five grain wagons  2/3 CIE H van conversions behind the first two hoppers. You can see the ladder that reached the roof hatches on two of them.

Well spotted, Mike. I'm quite surprised that none of the hundred-plus "H" van kits I've sold has been given the Grain treatment.

Back to Ernie's picture - WHY would there be grain wagons in MONAGHAN?  (I expect I missed an explanation posted by one of you wise young men?).

Re Flange's comment - I sell my "H" Van kit as the 1953 van, as that's the date of the first ones, I understand. Why were they called H Vans?

The GN Van isn't an H Van as such but part of a run of 150 wagons built  at Dundalk by the GNR in 1954 - 5 for the Drogheda bagged cement traffic - they all went to CIE at the dissolution of the GNR. They are the spitting image of the Dapol Banana Van so I've done them as GNR vans (two different numbers) and as a CIE wagon with a Flying Snail. It's so close to the GNR wagon and sold so well in the past, that I've wondered about doing it again in CIE colours, still lettered up for cement.

 

[airfixfan]

18 hours ago, Mayner said:

I guess we might have to consider a rtr GNR(I) bogie Bulk Grain/Guinness wagon.

I seem to "have a thing" about bulk grain wagons, I scratchbuilt an O Gauge one in tin plate on a Triang Big-Big Train chassis for the 1st MRSI O gauge layout many moons ago.

Some references to the GNR Guinness Van's in IRRS Journal 41 including a great photo on page 333.

[flange lubricator]

3 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Well spotted, Mike. I'm quite surprised that none of the hundred-plus "H" van kits I've sold has been given the Grain treatment.

 I understand. Why were they called H 

 Leslie as far as I am aware most wagons had a letter designation H was for covered wagons , 'I' was for open wagons can't think of anymore , this has carried on to the present day 42ft wagon 'LP' for example .

 

 

 

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Hi John, agree about the fascination for grain wagons, maybe because I worked for Ranks agriculture division before it was sold to Dalgety. The red and black is the same livery as our trucks were painted. I cannot remember RHM  owning grain wagons this side of the pond.  They were a good firm to work for a " dead men's shoes job".

 In Ernie's Monaghan photo there's at least five grain wagons  2/3 CIE H van conversions behind the first two hoppers. You can see the ladder that reached the roof hatches on two of them.

Well spotted, five wagon loads for a single customer was a fairly healthy traffic flow, serving Clones & Monaghan from Inny Junction and closing/mothballing the INW line west of Castleblaney might have kept the Cavan & Monaghan lines open for a few more years.

Grain traffic appears to have increased substantially during the 50s and 60s with CIE adding over 100 bulk wagons to its existing fleet of 20 GSR built wagons. The CIE grain wagons were basically H wagons with ladders, roof hatches and discharge chutes added, the majority had the side doors fixed/welded shut, but some appear to have been built without side doors not unlike the GNR bulk cement wagons.

CIE appear to have built 56 bulk grain wagons 23901-56 in 1955, converted 36 H vans to grain wagons 23967-96 in 1961 and converted a further 20 25021-25040 in 1964.

Possibly something like the GWR telegraphic code to assist stations ordering wagons.

I think H was for hard top as opposed standard Irish convertible wagons, 14' cattle wagons were classed K the longer 17'6" cattle wagons were classed KN, L for open wagons

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Grain traffic appears to have increased substantially during the 50s and 60s with CIE adding over 100 bulk wagons to its existing fleet of 20 GSR built wagons. The CIE grain wagons were basically H wagons with ladders, roof hatches and discharge chutes added, the majority had the side doors fixed/welded shut, but some appear to have been built without side doors not unlike the GNR bulk cement wagons.

CIE appear to have built 56 bulk grain wagons 23901-56 in 1955, converted 36 H vans to grain wagons 23967-96 in 1961 and converted a further 20 25021-25040 in 1964.

Possibly something like the GWR telegraphic code to assist stations ordering wagons.

I think H was for hard top as opposed standard Irish convertible wagons, 14' cattle wagons were classed K the longer 17'6" cattle wagons were classed KN, L for open wagons

Correct, that's exactly what the codes were for. I think I posted a list of them all in the distant past. The uniquely Irish "convertible vans" with the tarpaulin over a central roof opening - virtually all railways on this island had them - were known to railway men as "soft-tops".

[Mayner]

The Midland being the Midland not wanting to tie up capital in a large fleet of cattle wagons to cover occasional demands built  convertible wagons right up to the amalgamation.  Half or the 300 Irish Standard 10T covered wagons built by the MGWR between 1922 & 24 were built as "soft topped" wagons although they were otherwise identical to similar wagons built by the GSR & GNR. 

I wonder what the code for convertible wagons was?

Edited June 1, 2020 by Mayner

[leslie10646]

Thank you all for the lesson in wagon classification. At least I'm a lot wiser now on the various types.

 

[jhb171achill]

57 minutes ago, Mayner said:

The Midland being the Midland not wanting to tie up capital in a large fleet of cattle wagons to cover occasional demands built  convertible wagons right up to the amalgamation.  Half or the 300 Irish Standard 10T covered wagons built by the MGWR between 1922 & 24 were built as "soft topped" wagons although they were otherwise identical to similar wagons built by the GSR & GNR. 

I wonder what the code for convertible wagons was?

I'm not sure. From what I recall, this system of classification only came in during CIE times in the 1950s. This would have been after any soft-tops had been built new. As far as I remember, the classifications only applied to standard CIE types of wagon. I will try to find where I have the list. Failing that, I know who I can ask!

[DiveController]

Very valuable thread, learned a lot about grain, ....before I was mostly interested in grain products 

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, DiveController said:

Very valuable thread, learned a lot about grain, ....before I was mostly interested in grain products 

Droooooooool..........................it's been a while.............................

[DiveController]

Steady on @jhb171achill, you might be a bit out of practice 

Wouldn't go for a whole beer, maybe just a 'half one'?

Edited June 2, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

9 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Steady on @jhb171achill, you might be a bit out of practice 

Wouldn't go for a whole beer, maybe just a 'half one'?

Well, I finished the port last night! Must get more tomorrow!  

[Mike 84C]

Colour photo from about  1974 RHM  Agriculture hgv. The red did vary a bit often  it was nearer fire engine red. But its interesting  that the rail wagons in Ireland were painted  in such  a similar  style.

  And before anyone asks I'm not in that shape now ! 

[flange lubricator]

Found this picture of a grain wagon from the O'Dea collection taken with the wagon missing its running gear following a derailment at the 46th mile box of the Sligo goods  ,you can see the number 164xx and you can also see a faint flying  snail still on this wagon in 1971 .

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307730