Murphy Models new 201 and Mk3 coaches

[Noel]

14 hours ago, ttc0169 said:

Likewise Eamonn,

I do hope that Paddy Murphy considers fitting interior lights to the Mk3s as an added bonus, it would be a nice touch. 

Or perhaps an easily removed roof (ie magnets or simple clips) for installation of lighting strips and passengers. And optionally one bogie with power pickups which could be tapped.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Noel

[murphaph]

49 minutes ago, Noel said:

Hmmm! Interesting the mk3s were built based on BRs loading gauge for their UK mk3s so the bodies were not widened for our 5'3" unlike the wider Cravens which matched the Irish loading gauge. Would 21mm bogies look visually over scale with only 16.5mm wheel axles? If feedback is correct it seems there may be more fingers on a hand than the number of modellers with 21mm gauge layouts. Some models designed to accommodate 21mm conversion can look disproportionate with rather unsightly sideways overhang of bogies or axle boxes (ie protruding too far from under the body), but wheels almost completely out of sight. Its also virtually impossible to convert model steam locos to 21mm unless built for 21mm from scratch. 

The various BR bogies were widened for use in Ireland as I'm sure you're aware. The MM Cravens and Mk2d stock previously released have under scale width bogies that sit too far in under the tumblehome. 

The IRM P42 bogies look right. They still work fine for 00 gauge because the wheels are barely visible from the side anyway, concealed largely by the bogie side frames.

I haven't heard any complaints about the IRM method (for me it'll be a godsend), which is all I'm advocating. Indeed MM diesels DO have scale width bogies and have done since the babies were released, allowing straightforward gauge widening of all these locos.

Maybe in an effort to reduce costs, the bogies for the MM Cravens and Mk2d stock used existing 00 tooling belonging to the contract manufacturer.

[Mayner]

43 minutes ago, Noel said:

Hmmm! Interesting the mk3s were built based on BRs loading gauge for their UK mk3s so the bodies were not widened for our 5'3" unlike the wider Cravens which matched the Irish loading gauge. Would 21mm bogies look visually over scale with only 16.5mm wheel axles? If feedback is correct it seems there may be more fingers on a hand than the number of modellers with 21mm gauge layouts. Some models designed to accommodate 21mm conversion can look disproportionate with rather unsightly sideways overhang of bogies or axle boxes (ie protruding too far from under the body), but wheels almost completely out of sight. Its also virtually impossible to convert model steam locos to 21mm unless built for 21mm from scratch. 

One of the distinctive spotting features of the Irish Mk3 coaches is that when viewed from rail level the bogies project out further past the body than a standard gauge MK3 coach, which would accentuate the narrow gauge appearance of a OO gauge Irish MK3.

The disproportionate effect appears to be accentuated by the MK3 body profile and is less noticeable on the BR Vans and MK2 based stock which have a more conventional body profile.

 

[hexagon789]

20 minutes ago, Mayner said:

One of the distinctive spotting features of the Irish Mk3 coaches is that when viewed from rail level the bogies project out further past the body than a standard gauge MK3 coach, which would accentuate the narrow gauge appearance of a OO gauge Irish MK3.

The disproportionate effect appears to be accentuated by the MK3 body profile and is less noticeable on the BR Vans and MK2 based stock which have a more conventional body profile.

 

Nice shot of the Mk3s there, is that your own photo?

 

 

[WRENNEIRE]

I wonder if he would do one of these?

 

[B141]

Looking forward to splurging on a push-pull train or an executive set. Does anyone know how long they usually were, or what coaches they usually consisted of?

RPSI MK2d 303 would also be nice, hint hint!

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, B141 said:

Looking forward to splurging on a push-pull train or an executive set. Does anyone know how long they usually were, or what coaches they usually consisted of?

RPSI MK2d 303 would also be nice, hint hint!

I think that the push-pull sets were usually five coaches and a DVT.

Agreed on 303 and 304!!!

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

I wonder if he would do one of these?

 

How do you put a DCC chip in the horse?

[DJ Dangerous]

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

How do you put a DCC chip in the horse?

With a very thick rubber glove.

[Westcorkrailway]

7 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

I wonder if he would do one of these?

 

4 leg pick ups, horse manure weathering, very interesting sound....and it doesn't need rails

 

Not to mention it has a flying snail....im sold

[jhb171achill]

20 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

4 leg pick ups, horse manure weathering, very interesting sound....and it doesn't need rails

Not to mention it has a flying snail....im sold

It's the wrong shade of grey, though.

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, B141 said:

Looking forward to splurging on a push-pull train or an executive set. Does anyone know how long they usually were, or what coaches they usually consisted of?

The Executive set was whatever was required, it could be as few as EGV+4 or as long as a mainline set at EGV+7 or 8.

The push-pulls were originally planned as three Control Car+2 sets and two Control Car+5 sets. However it varied over time and generally you had some loose spares and the four sets in service would be one Control Car+2 for the Limerick Jcn shuttle and three Control Car+5 on outer suburban duties. After the Lim Jcn shuttle became a railcar there were usually only 3 sets in traffic all on InterCity duties - two Control Car+5 on two of the Waterford diagrams (one with the Café-Bar car) and the other would do anything from Galway or Westport InterCities (usually worked as hauled stock rather than push-pull), Sunday Dublin/Corks replacing the previous "Arrow Express" to even running Mallow-Tralee locals vice railcar at one point.

Really depends on your modelling period as to which series of operations would fit.

[jhb171achill]

The one time I ever travelled in one of these tubular pressure cookers it was a three car set on the Limerick - LJ shuttle, with a 121 at the Limerick end. As far as I know, it wasn't long before the railcars took over.

Edited March 4, 2021 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

I would just like to add that if any re-run of the Cravens is ever done, they have dark coloured seats, not bright blue.

They were never bright blue, and in original livery generally a dark grey, almost black.....

15 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

........Sunday Dublin/Corks replacing the previous "Arrow Express" .......

Anyone here ever put themselves through this ordeal?

[hexagon789]

14 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The one time I ever travelled in one of these tubular pressure cookers it was a three car set on the Limerick - LJ shuttle, with a 121 at the Limerick end. As far as I know, it wasn't long before the railcars took over.

I love the moniker - "tubular pressure cookers"!

 

9 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Anyone here ever put themselves through this ordeal?

No, but I distinctly recall one of the rolling stock books making specific mention of the relevant service's departure times so that readers could avoid it!

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

I love the moniker - "tubular pressure cookers"!

 

No, but I distinctly recall one of the rolling stock books making specific mention of the relevant service's departure times so that readers could avoid it!

Did it even have a trolley service?

[hexagon789]

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Did it even have a trolley service?

It may have done, but I don't have any passenger timetables later than 1989 to check. I do know that of the two push-pull set Sunday Cork/Dublins which replaced the Arrows one had a trolley the other didn't. Really random calls too - one stopped at Limerick Junction only, the other at Portlaoise only iirc. Really bizarre choices. 

[B141]

39 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

The Executive set was whatever was required, it could be as few as EGV+4 or as long as a mainline set at EGV+7 or 8.

The push-pulls were originally planned as three Control Car+2 sets and two Control Car+5 sets. However it varied over time and generally you had some loose spares and the four sets in service would be one Control Car+2 for the Limerick Jcn shuttle and three Control Car+5 on outer suburban duties. After the Lim Jcn shuttle became a railcar there were usually only 3 sets in traffic all on InterCity duties - two Control Car+5 on two of the Waterford diagrams (one with the Café-Bar car) and the other would do anything from Galway or Westport InterCities (usually worked as hauled stock rather than push-pull), Sunday Dublin/Corks replacing the previous "Arrow Express" to even running Mallow-Tralee locals vice railcar at one point.

Really depends on your modelling period as to which series of operations would fit.

Very interesting and very informative, thank you so much. I didn't realise that they were used so extensively on intercity work, I always associated them with the Limerick Junction shuttle and suburban duties.

[hexagon789]

1 minute ago, B141 said:

Very interesting and very informative, thank you so much. I didn't realise that they were used so extensively on intercity work, I always associated them with the Limerick Junction shuttle and suburban duties.

After the Outer Suburbans became railcars the push-pull sets were redeployed on InterCity work, at least two sets gained tables as per standard Mk3s. This was much later in their life, from the early 2000s.

[murphaph]

In the period immediately before the introduction of the 2600 class Arrow services out of Heuston, were the push pulls used along this corridor much? Was Kildare an outer suburban station or intercity only?

[hexagon789]

45 minutes ago, murphaph said:

In the period immediately before the introduction of the 2600 class Arrow services out of Heuston, were the push pulls used along this corridor much? Was Kildare an outer suburban station or intercity only?

I always associate the push-pulls in the early years with Connolly suburban services; I believe the more frequent Kildare service only started with the 2600s.

[murphaph]

Yeah that's what I suspect too. Push pull suburbans mainly on Connolly services and the short LJ shuttle and Newbridge & Kildare only receiving intercity services.

[connollystn]

The one thing I like about modelling push-pull trains is that I can change the direction without having to run around the engine. The Mark III DVTs would be a great addition to any layout.

[Wexford70]

The Push-Pull were used on the Dublin Rosslare line for a while also.

I have seen photos but can't find one now.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Wexford70

[murphaph]

When did they get moved over to Heuston IC duties? Already around 1995 maybe?

[hexagon789]

20 minutes ago, murphaph said:

When did they get moved over to Heuston IC duties? Already around 1995 maybe?

I think it was much later, into the 201 era. I'm thinking at least not until the 2000s, could be wrong.

[Ironroad]

3 hours ago, Wexford70 said:

The Push-Pull were used on the Dublin Rosslare line for a while also.

I have seen photos but can't find one now.

 

I'm open to correction, but I thought they were used on the outer suburban services between Wicklow and Dundalk, I remember seeing them un Tara St in the late '80's 

[RedRich]

Push pulls replaced the MK11's when they were withdrawn on the Waterford Dublin Heuston.

Rich,

[murphaph]

55 minutes ago, RedRich said:

Push pulls replaced the MK11's when they were withdrawn on the Waterford Dublin Heuston.

Rich,

Any idea of year?

[RedRich]

I remember being on a push pull set Dublin - Waterford in 2007. The MK11's had already begun to be fazed out at that time 

Rich,

[Vlak]

The Mk III P/P sets used in Connolly went over to Heuston with the delivery of the 2900 railcars in 2002/3 from memory where they were deployed on Waterford services mainly from about 2003/4, the reason being to negate the requirement of running round in Kilkenny. The delivery of the Cafe/Bar coach in 2005(?) from the UK was the last Mk3 coach to be delivered to Ireland, and was intended for the Waterford line. 
 

For a period in 2005/6 several push/pull driving trailers were decommissioned (not sure all were) and labels were placed in the driving cabs to say they were for hauled operation only. Several sets also ran as conventional hauled sets minus a Control Car instead having a conventional generator van attached. Several generator vans were modified to run with the push/pull sets which negated the need for a Control Car to be in the consist which had the generator. The Control Cars came back into use by mid-2006, all subsequently having been recommissioned I seem to recall, perhaps after overhaul. Could have something to do with the LHB bogies the control cars had, which limited them to 70mph before they were changed out for conventional BT10 bogies.
 

Push/pull sets were used on the Kildare locals from time to time due to if a shortage of 2900 railcars occurred, although I seem to recall in 2007(?) there was actually a booked turn out to Kildare in the evening utilising a set off the ex Waterford for a while - not sure if it was an amended diagram for a few weeks or if it lasted throughout the entire timetable. 
 

One of the last duties for the push/pull sets was working between Cork / Mallow / Tralee due to a shortage of units towards the end of loco haulage days. 

 

[murphaph]

I forgot about the LHB bogies. That's going to be an interesting decision for MM to make. Most people probably want to run them in the earlier configuration with 121s.

[Irishswissernie]

Dublin - Waterford 2003  -2005 trains were a mixture of MK 3 sets, Push/Pull sets and Cravens. Some of the  Push/Pull sets I travelled on were not worked in Push/Pull mode by the 201's and they ran round at Kilkenny and Waterford. One of the Cravens sets sometimes included a coach with the buffet at the end. They all appear in Ernie's Archive on Flickr either photos or on video.

One from up the hill at Waterford in June 2005

 

[hexagon789]

23 minutes ago, Vlak said:

The Mk III P/P sets used in Connolly went over to Heuston with the delivery of the 2900 railcars in 2002/3 from memory where they were deployed on Waterford services mainly from about 2003/4, the reason being to negate the requirement of running round in Kilkenny.

That sounds right, and would make sense as well.

 

24 minutes ago, Vlak said:

The delivery of the Cafe/Bar coach in 2005(?) from the UK was the last Mk3 coach to be delivered to Ireland, and was intended for the Waterford line. 

Think it was 2004 it entered traffic

 

25 minutes ago, Vlak said:

For a period in 2005/6 several push/pull driving trailers were decommissioned (not sure all were) and labels were placed in the driving cabs to say they were for hauled operation only. Several sets also ran as conventional hauled sets minus a Control Car instead having a conventional generator van attached. Several generator vans were modified to run with the push/pull sets which negated the need for a Control Car to be in the consist which had the generator. The Control Cars came back into use by mid-2006, all subsequently having been recommissioned I seem to recall, perhaps after overhaul. Could have something to do with the LHB bogies the control cars had, which limited them to 70mph before they were changed out for conventional BT10 bogies.

I believe that was done to allow them cover for the refurbishment/maintenance of the Westport Mk3 set.

Only 3 ever had LHB bogies, two had BT22s to start with.

Once they were all so fitted, they were permitted 90mph hauled but still 70mph propelled.

 

16 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I forgot about the LHB bogies. That's going to be an interesting decision for MM to make. Most people probably want to run them in the earlier configuration with 121s.

Important to note, only applies to 3 of the control cars. Two always had BT22s.

5 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

Dublin - Waterford 2003  -2005 trains were a mixture of MK 3 sets, Push/Pull sets and Cravens. Some of the  Push/Pull sets I travelled on were not worked in Push/Pull mode by the 201's and they ran round at Kilkenny and Waterford. One of the Cravens sets sometimes included a coach with the buffet at the end. They all appear in Ernie's Archive on Flickr either photos or on video.

One from up the hill at Waterford in June 2005

 

My understanding of the diagrams was -

One diagram - push/pull Mk3 no café-bar

One diagram - push/pull Mk3 with café-bar

One diagram - conventional Mk3 with composite providing First Class

Not sure what the Cravens did - the Carlow terminator that extended on Fridays? And the Sundays only return?

[JasonB]

Great news all round. Obviously, the stand out model from the announcement has got to be the Mk3 stock. But I have to admit, I was pleasantly surprised to see the Galway livreried Mk2d included. Not everyone's cup of tea I know, but for some strange reason I've a soft spot for them.