Will we see more 071 / 141/ 181 from Murphy models?

[Sean]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

I'm already looking forward to the rerun of the A's in a few years. I'll buy the same liveries again in the new running numbers. They are that nice a model.

hopefully there will be enough interest for another run of GM's before then

[connollystn]

2 hours ago, Sean said:

hopefully there will be enough interest for another run of GM's before then

It's most likely that models of the classes B101 and C will appear before any of the GM's

[Sean]

unacceptable! I will not rest until every single running number ever of 071 is available in toothpaste IR livery complete with  the lighting features we have come to love , accuratrash sound, and rolling bearing boxes, then just as i have purchased 5 of each it will be time to open preorders for the same range of baby GM's

 

let me dream 

 

 

[DJ Dangerous]

20 hours ago, connollystn said:

It's most likely that models of the classes B101 and C will appear before any of the GM's

Just curious as to why? I've seen several members post that, but I'm not sure that it would be ideal from a sales point of view - possibly be akin to another run of the A's, which wouldn't make sense immediately.

On 4/3/2022 at 3:20 PM, connollystn said:

The reality is IRM have done such a fantastic job on these locomotives that they look good in all their' guises.

Absolutely agree there, stunning looking locos, all of the variants. Don't get to run my trains at all lately, although hope to do so at the end of the month, so for now, I can at least look at them.

 

[Sean]

Quote

Just curious as to why? I've seen several members post that, but I'm not sure that it would be ideal from a sales point of view - possibly be akin to another run of the A's, which wouldn't make sense immediately.

Totally agree with this sentiment, I dont really care for the motive power which came from the UK and was not going to buy an A at all only for the fact that it kept getting such good reviews, fomo got the better of me and i was able to finally justify one due to them having such a widespread use on the network. I like them now thanks to having such a fine model on the shelf.

 

I do however get the feeling that in such a small market that is centered around such a niche interest that there may well be some form of unwritten gentlemens agreement between PM and IRM which effectively states that the 2 firms will not develop competing products, ruling out any IRM made GM's for as long as PM stays in business, as such a small market would probabaly not sustain the same product from both manufacturers despite strong demand for those models and 071 has been a staple of the PM catalogue for many years now.

 

So to that effect it will be upto paddy when we get to see new GM's hit the shelves...  Considering that a 201 rerun is in the works, i think it's going to be more of a when than an if. as everyone seems to want 071 now that shes gone.

 

Im less confident we will see more baby GM since the tooling is gone and needs redoing from scratch, but you never know..............

[Rob]

6 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

 

Looks very impressive- like a shop!

[DJ Dangerous]

2 hours ago, Rob said:

Looks very impressive- like a shop!

Thank Heavens for IKEA and their cheap Mosslanda shelves!

[Joe Keegan]

20 hours ago, Sean said:

 

 

 

Im less confident we will see more baby GM since the tooling is gone and needs redoing from scratch, but you never know..............

Care to tell the forum where you got that information from “ the tooling is gone and needs redoing from scratch ” ?

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Joe Keegan

[connollystn]

To be honest, the advancements in production processes and technology means that the tooling etc for the baby GMs is outdated so no point doing a rerun.

[Sean]

2 hours ago, Joe Keegan said:

Care to tell the forum where you got that information from “ the tooling is gone and needs redoing from scratch ” ?

 

Well to be honest with you its hearsay from this very forum. maybe "gone" is not correct but i am under the impression that it is with Bachmann and will not be used by murphy again.

1 hour ago, connollystn said:

To be honest, the advancements in production processes and technology means that the tooling etc for the baby GMs is outdated so no point doing a rerun.

Do you mean from a finished product perspective, or a cost to manufacture perspective? in my opinion the baby GM are stunning  and with the exception of a few modern features that did not exist when they came out i find myself preferring them to the later releases,  if 121 and 141 were in simultaneous production at the moment and the exact same price i would see myself building up a fleet of 141 with maybe a couple of 121. I think thats partially due to my bias towards that particular loco as well though.

I guess what im trying to say is that the fit and finish of the older tooling isn't an issue for me and i see it as better in a couple of ways.(there are certain aspects of 141 i would bring to 121 and aspects of 141 i would bring to 121 to make the perfect model so not complaining about either by any stretch)

Yes i would be missing a few modern features but since im getting back into the hobby from early 2000's era hornby sets, everything i get is an upgrade to me right now!

I also still buy scooter parts that were tooled 50 years ago(AND DAPOL KITS) so maybe im missing the relevance of it so much in the model industry.

[connollystn]

24 minutes ago, Sean said:

I guess what im trying to say is that the fit and finish of the older tooling isn't an issue for me

It would be an issue for everyone else! Can't see there being much of a demand for a new 'old' model - the bar has been raised so there's no going back. You stated that you're only getting back into the hobby but, for someone like me who never gave it up, had to patiently wait over 40 years for the As to come along. It's most likely that a completely new 141/181 will be produced sooner rather than later so keep watching this space.

[DJ Dangerous]

14 minutes ago, connollystn said:

It would be an issue for everyone else! Can't see there being much of a demand for a new 'old' model - the bar has been raised so there's no going back. You stated that you're only getting back into the hobby but, for someone like me who never gave it up, had to patiently wait over 40 years for the As to come along. It's most likely that a completely new 141/181 will be produced sooner rather than later so keep watching this space.

I'm happy to offer a good home to any unwanted "old" MM 141's, 181's, 071's or 201's...

[Bob229]

On 6/3/2022 at 2:33 PM, DJ Dangerous said:

Just curious as to why? I've seen several members post that, but I'm not sure that it would be ideal from a sales point of view - possibly be akin to another run of the A's, which wouldn't make sense immediately.

Absolutely agree there, stunning looking locos, all of the variants. Don't get to run my trains at all lately, although hope to do so at the end of the month, so for now, I can at least look at them.

 

Wow a fine collection better than any model shop

[Sean]

On 7/3/2022 at 3:42 PM, connollystn said:

It would be an issue for everyone else! Can't see there being much of a demand for a new 'old' model - the bar has been raised so there's no going back. You stated that you're only getting back into the hobby but, for someone like me who never gave it up, had to patiently wait over 40 years for the As to come along. It's most likely that a completely new 141/181 will be produced sooner rather than later so keep watching this space.

i actually strongly disagree with this, objectively speaking when i put 141 and 121 side by side at first the fit and finish of both products are to a high standard and very close, 121 has a few modern features like the spinning axles which in fairness are lovely but absolutely not essential(and easily added without a full retool),its nice on the irm flats too but i dont miss it on my ballast train. the ballast train arrived today,  woops looks like i bought an old model by mistake?

one key feature has me grabbing 141 again and again and its a particular bone of contention i hold with the finish of 121 and it was done for accuracys sake,  the same feature on 141 is slightly less accurate but 100% more hard wearing  so i actually prefer this on the "old" model. absolute accuracy isnt always best if its at the expense of the quality of the part being modelled. thats just like my opinion though, man.

dont get me wrong, a brand new retooled baby GM is best for all, that being said i surely wouldnt shake a stick at a rerun of the old one, particularly if it could be done at a lower price point to discount all the R&D processes needed of a complete retool. its a very high quality model as is.

[BosKonay]

4 hours ago, Sean said:

Dont get me wrong, a brand new retooled baby GM is best for all, that being said i surely wouldnt shake a stick at a rerun of the old one, particularly if it could be done at a lower price point to discount all the R&D processes needed of a complete retool. its a very high quality model as is.

While we're veering away from discussion of the IRM A Class, the chance of a new run of the old 141/181 tooling is pretty slim to none.

[Blaine]

1 hour ago, BosKonay said:

While we're veering away from discussion of the IRM A Class, the chance of a new run of the old 141/181 tooling is pretty slim to none.

'Text Size 72, Capitals, Bold, Underlined'..........

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, BosKonay said:

While we're veering away from discussion of the IRM A Class, the chance of a new run of the old 141/181 tooling is pretty slim to none.

Oh, please! You only say that because you guys have had your on run of them sitting in a container in Dublin the last two years, held back just to troll us, along with the forty foots of Laminates, Mk4 sets, 22000's and the twenty foot of motorised floating B&I ferries.

Sure every few months, when he manages to wipe the tears of laughter out of his eyes, Fran posts pictures of a "new" tooling sample that has been sitting on the ledge in his bathroom for a couple of years, and then spends another few months crying with laughter at the reactions of all of us here on the forum, frothing at the mouths.

Every time I mention two-tone green 1990's Dublin buses, he glances over at that twenty foot and laughs so hard that he starts coughing and says to himself "ah, they can wait a few more months for those" ...

[Robert Shrives]

I recall the line " Nothing official until officially denied."   But like the idea of boxes of boxes in Containers just waiting ..   141 after the Hunslet and 80class....

Robert 

[connollystn]

If you read between the lines the prospect of a newly tooled version of the 141/181 appearing in the short term is highly likely so don't be wasting your 300€ on the stuff which is for sale on eBay etc...........

[Noel]

4 hours ago, connollystn said:

If you read between the lines the prospect of a newly tooled version of the 141/181 appearing in the short term is highly likely so don't be wasting your 300€ on the stuff which is for sale on eBay etc...........

Just wondering what's the point of a retooled release? The market for more 141/181s isn't as large as one might imagine given the numbers already on peoples layout. Remember how the MM 201s initially didn't sell for years because of the population of Lima 201s on peoples layouts. Also the Bachmann 141/181 still stand up pretty well. The only possible  improvements I can think of are: (but it will cost)

1. Magnetic decoder access hatch
2. Built-in bass reflex speaker
3. Independent headlights from running lights
4. (Optional) see through ventilation grills (Hmmm not sure the space sacfifice would be worth it)
5. Keep alive capacitor assuming no 5 omitted.
6. Loco drivers

Such models likely to be well north of €200 if economically feasible to produce in such small numbers. Another huge problem for a manufacturer is the no of livery variations. A safer bet might be to produce a 22k set or even a 2600 DMU set. The original run of 141/181 was about 8500 models and clearly some investor collectors still have some stock, so unsure there are enough new modellers who've entered the hobby since 2008 to buy enough to make it viable despite the calls for re-runs. But that's just an opinion based on anecdotal evidence. NIR and Freight Grey 071 re-runs might be a safer bet, especially as the latter are still current and in folks living memory. Only time will tell. First world problems, but aren't we lucky that there are now TWO manufacturers of quality scale Irish models instead of the Lima class 33s we had to put up with back in the 1970s. 

[DJ Dangerous]

Slightly OT, but I reckon that the market is five or ten times what it was when the 141's / 181's were released, over ten years ago, so comparing sales ten years ago to sales today is really apples vs. oranges.

The speed at which items sell at the moment is breathtaking - IRM Mags 30% sold on pre-order in five or six weeks, for example.

I remember all of the tantrums here on the forum because the Container Liners sold out on pre-order.

121's flew off the shelves in certain liveries, as did the A's. 141's / 181's / 071's / 201's would be no different.

Plus, I believe that the original tooling is inaccessible, from reading various posts here on the forum, so IF somebody wanted to do a run, new tooling would be required.

That's not knocking the original run - they are smashing locos, very highly detailed, and they are buttery smooth runners.

 

 

[connollystn]

@Noel - I completely disagree with your sentiment. There would be a decent market for newly tooled models of the 141 & 181 locomotives because of the way they operated people will buy multiples of the units. The bar has been raised to such huge heights that there's no going back. Anyway, my priority is waiting for IRM to produce passenger stock to go with the A class.

[Sean]

6 hours ago, Noel said:

Just wondering what's the point of a retooled release? The market for more 141/181s isn't as large as one might imagine given the numbers already on peoples layout. Remember how the MM 201s initially didn't sell for years because of the population of Lima 201s on peoples layouts. Also the Bachmann 141/181 still stand up pretty well. The only possible  improvements I can think of are: (but it will cost)

1. Magnetic decoder access hatch
2. Built-in bass reflex speaker
3. Independent headlights from running lights
4. (Optional) see through ventilation grills (Hmmm not sure the space sacfifice would be worth it)
5. Keep alive capacitor assuming no 5 omitted.
6. Loco drivers

Such models likely to be well north of €200 if economically feasible to produce in such small numbers. Another huge problem for a manufacturer is the no of livery variations. A safer bet might be to produce a 22k set or even a 2600 DMU set. The original run of 141/181 was about 8500 models and clearly some investor collectors still have some stock, so unsure there are enough new modellers who've entered the hobby since 2008 to buy enough to make it viable despite the calls for re-runs. But that's just an opinion based on anecdotal evidence. NIR and Freight Grey 071 re-runs might be a safer bet, especially as the latter are still current and in folks living memory. Only time will tell. First world problems, but aren't we lucky that there are now TWO manufacturers of quality scale Irish models instead of the Lima class 33s we had to put up with back in the 1970s. 

rolling bearing boxes a big one for me. and the stay alive. i think i figured out number three the last time i was messing about but let me get back to you on that. no to 4 if it sacrifices too much speaker space.

personally i would take the packaging and the handrails then from 141, both of these things are super annoying to me on the 121 release simply due to how delicate the model can be at times, particularly during unboxing. 141 still has plenty of detail picked out in fire wire but imo but it doesnt really work with the overall handrails due to how delicate they can be on 121.

thats why IF there was a possibility of such a re run then it wouldnt exactly be the worst thing in the world.  I know we are blowing hot air at this point because we know such a release is not possible, but i know id buy one (or 5 in a heartbeat). some of the big brands seem to be shamelessly selling the same tool at full whack for decades and people are buying them.

6 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Slightly OT, but I reckon that the market is five or ten times what it was when the 141's / 181's were released, over ten years ago, so comparing sales ten years ago to sales today is really apples vs. oranges.

The speed at which items sell at the moment is breathtaking - IRM Mags 30% sold on pre-order in five or six weeks, for example.

I remember all of the tantrums here on the forum because the Container Liners sold out on pre-order.

121's flew off the shelves in certain liveries, as did the A's. 141's / 181's / 071's / 201's would be no different.

Plus, I believe that the original tooling is inaccessible, from reading various posts here on the forum, so IF somebody wanted to do a run, new tooling would be required.

That's not knocking the original run - they are smashing locos, very highly detailed, and they are buttery smooth runners.

 

 

yeah things are moving fast and every time when i see large %'s of the overall stock. preordered in days i keep coming back and saying that its only a matter of time. both IRM and PM both have other projects in progress atm though so i cant exactly see anything coming soon soon or maybe in the next couple of years.

I too see it flying out in certain liveries whilst others might tend to hang around in stock for a longer period after this, like we see at the moment on the last of the 121's so careful consideration would be needed in chosing which ones to produce

of course the lack of tooling is the main issue in all of this, and its why i dont see any sort of baby GM happening for a while but what about the 071 tool? surely murphy still has access to that and it would be much more likely to be the one we see getting a re run first? is his forthcoming 201 a retool or a re run?

[Noel]

@SeanPS: Rolling axle boxes seem potentially more trouble than they are worth due to the risk of poor running they might cause.

Personally I'd love to have to re-tooled baby GMs, but fortunately having collected a good stable of these already over the past 14 years, I doubt I'd be buying more than 2 or 3 of a new release, and certainly not replacing the existing fleet. It'll be fun waiting and watching for developments. Now IRM quality RTR  B101 or even B113 (both minority special interest locos) would get me excited, but unrealistic to expect production of such locos.

[Sean]

I really like them when they are there but don't at all miss them we when they aren't. It's not like it's a big enough detail that I can see them spinning as the train drives around my room

 

I actually see the moving bearing thing as a bit of a premium that Irish modellers are spoiled with. Every time you see an English review of a bit of Irish stock that has them It seems to take a while for the reviewer to actually notice they are there and then they think it's a brilliant innovation.

Were they done first on irish rolling stock or do other brands of models also feature these?

[WRENNEIRE]

Dont see a re tooling of the babys.
Cost involved, and the amount that would have to be made just to wash its face would be huge
Costs in China are on the up & up, add in transport and you will be looking at a €300 loco
MM still owns the original tooling, which I think is excellent, so maybe approach him with your confirmation money and see what happens
For a €150000 investment you would only need to sell 500 to get your money back!

[BosKonay]

1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Dont see a re tooling of the babys.
Cost involved, and the amount that would have to be made just to wash its face would be huge
Costs in China are on the up & up, add in transport and you will be looking at a €300 loco
MM still owns the original tooling, which I think is excellent, so maybe approach him with your confirmation money and see what happens
For a €150000 investment you would only need to sell 500 to get your money back!

I think the volume of Irish modelers has grown and that the days of a €300 model are still some distance away unless you are making a really really small limited run of something. 

[murphaph]

34 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

I think the volume of Irish modelers has grown and that the days of a €300 model are still some distance away unless you are making a really really small limited run of something. 

The upcoming 201 re-release should indicate what sort of price point MM is operating at I would have thought. That run can't be too big really as it's only covering missing more modern liveries. If the 201s cost €300 there won't be too many sold I reckon.

[connollystn]

Don't see the point to producing models which are full of 15 year old technology. As BosKonay has stated, the volume of Irish modellers has grown and the last thing they want to be buying is 'new' antiques.

[Warbonnet]

3 hours ago, Sean said:

I really like them when they are there but don't at all miss them we when they aren't. It's not like it's a big enough detail that I can see them spinning as the train drives around my room

 

I actually see the moving bearing thing as a bit of a premium that Irish modellers are spoiled with. Every time you see an English review of a bit of Irish stock that has them It seems to take a while for the reviewer to actually notice they are there and then they think it's a brilliant innovation.

Were they done first on irish rolling stock or do other brands of models also feature these?

The rotating axle caps were first done in American HO around 10-12 years ago I believe, but we were the first to have it in OO on our taras.

Cheers!

Fran 

[irishthump]

3 hours ago, Sean said:

I really like them when they are there but don't at all miss them we when they aren't. It's not like it's a big enough detail that I can see them spinning as the train drives around my room

 

I actually see the moving bearing thing as a bit of a premium that Irish modellers are spoiled with. Every time you see an English review of a bit of Irish stock that has them It seems to take a while for the reviewer to actually notice they are there and then they think it's a brilliant innovation.

Were they done first on irish rolling stock or do other brands of models also feature these?

A lot of the more recent  American HO models have come with rotating axel caps, it's where I saw them first anyway. The Hattons Class 66 also had them, and their problems are well documented on the web but I'm not sure how many other OO gauge manufacturers (other than IRM/Accurascale) are using them much. I'm sure one of the IRM guys could tell us if they're more common.

7 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

The rotating axle caps were first done in American HO around 10-12 years ago I believe, but we were the first to have it in OO on our taras.

Cheers!

Fran 

Beat me to the punch!

[irishthump]

18 hours ago, Noel said:

 

1. Magnetic decoder access hatch
2. Built-in bass reflex speaker
3. Independent headlights from running lights
4. (Optional) see through ventilation grills (Hmmm not sure the space sacfifice would be worth it)
5. Keep alive capacitor assuming no 5 omitted.
6. Loco drivers

 

Personally I don't think we will see more 141/181's anytime soon, new or old. But in regards to features...

1) Yes, that would be good, but the access hatch on the 121 works fine too.

2) Not a hope! Where would it go? Remember, there's pretty much the same amount of space inside the 121 as there is in the 141/181.

3) Pretty much expected, and easy to accomplish.

4) To me the see through grills in the 121 were unnecessary. It gave up precious space inside the loco that could have been used for a better speaker setup.

5) Again. No room.

6) Seriously?

Edited March 11, 2022 by irishthump

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

The rotating axle caps were first done in American HO around 10-12 years ago I believe, but we were the first to have it in OO on our taras.

Cheers!

Fran 

That’s a neat little claim to fame!

[connollystn]

I'd say the baby As will be the next motorised model release from IRM, it'll be 2024 at the earliest for the appearance of the newly tooled baby GMs. Patience is a virtue............

[spudfan]

Irish Rail  to paint an 071 in Black and Tan, name it "PADDY MURPHY" thus enabling Paddy to release an 071 in Black and Tan....