IRM Steam Speculation

[Warbonnet]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

I probably would have gone for a GN V or Vs in sky blue livery with a matching rake of coaches, but I have been planning to build a Cattle Engine for the last 30 odd years.

American brass imports seem to have taken off after American servicemen discovered that Japanese and later Korean craftsmen could produce excellent hand crafted models companies such as Precision Scale and Overland Models , there is also a considerable market in European brass manufactured by companies like Fulgurex http://www.fulgurex.ch/en/.

American brass seems to be brought as much as an investment as to run on a layout. Athearn, Atlas and Walters were the main brands of plastic rtr models with Bachmann and Lifelike in the toy train category until they started lifting their game in the 1990s.

Apart from one or two 1960s GWR imports Japanese or Korean brass never took off in the UK with "Hornby" dominating the UK market until Bachmann Branchlines arrived during the 1990s. Otherwise excellent Airfix and Mainline locos in the 70s and 80s were let down by poorly manufactured mechanisms. Ironically Mainline's models were manufactured by Bachmann and Airfix (later Hornby) by Sanda Kan that was later gobbled up by Bachmann.

Iain Rice blamed the poor quality of British rtr models and kits on modellers expecting high quality models at bargain store prices

Interestingly Overland Models stopped commissioning brass models about 7 or 8 years ago, citing that the latest generation of plastic injection moulded models now carried as much bells and whistles for a much lower price point. Their speciality was diesels, and the models then coming from the main US manufacturers were of excellent fidelity and quality. They also ran properly out of the box, something which brass trains in many cases needing some adjustment. Others seem to produce in the steam sphere still, but as you say it's mainly collector market and a lot smaller than it once was. 

Indeed, in our earlier days of IRM we did establish contact with a brass model train producer, just in case any special projects warranted such attention. 

Cheers!

Fran 

[DJ Dangerous]

3 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Indeed, in our earlier days of IRM we did establish contact with a brass model train producer, just in case any special projects warranted such attention. 

Cheers!

Fran 

 

Could be handy for the IRM O Gauge and Gauge 1 ranges...

[Ironroad]

18 hours ago, Mayner said:

As seen on TV!!!!!!!!!!!

I looked at the option of commissioning a rtr OO gauge Cattle Engine from China, I would have needed to sell 500 batch built Brass locos at £700 each or 3000 plastic injection locos at £180 each to cover my costs and make a small profit.

OO Works appears to have established that there is a market for 100 Irish steam outline locos at a £315 point which appears very low for a batch built model assembled in the UK (even at home!)

At the time I hadn't £300k lying around to see if I could sell 500 Brass or 3000 Plastic Cattle Engines so took a punt on investing a smaller amount in producing some 3D printed rtr wagons which did not exactly pay off either.

Very sobering information.  I'm one of those that was disappointed the viability of producing the MGWR Cattle engine wasn't feasible.  But considering your comments above, I'm just wondering if you  have ever considered the possibility of collaborating with OO Works.   This maybe a non runner  but I suspect you have already done a lot of ground work, on this model which could give such a project a head start..  I'm clutching at straws.

Harking back to observations I made earlier on this thread, I accept the counter points made since by other forum members to the effect that there is significant interest in earlier periods among modellers who have no memories or experience of those times.  But the point here is that it is typically with growing knowledge and maturity as modellers that interest expands either back in time or narrow gauge etc. Initially on entering the hobby it is the contemporary scene or nostalgia for what we remember that is likely to be the inspiration. Those of us that can think of a Silver A class nostalgically are very fortunate to actually have had the opportunity to be in a position to purchase the high quality RTR model produced by IRM, but the reality is that part of the market is evaporating.  For the most part my interest starts with the formation of CIE, although I have a grá for the MGWR.

[leslie10646]

Ah yes, a Cattle engine would have been nice. Great brutes of things and impressively long-lived.

With great regret, I have to agree with Warbonnet that the RTR stuff DOES run straight out of the box, while brass built kits can be a trial. My S Class looked divine, but on only ran properly twenty years and major surgery. Daniel Wu built beautiful locos but like every other enthusiast in Hon Kong had nowhere to run them, so the running bit wasn't his forte!

Locos built "over here" have done much better and my Northstar locos  (all bought secondhand) are a credit to their builders for looks and operability.

I wonder if there's a suitable chassis for a Cattle Engine or a SG3 that we could stick a 3D body and tender on? Maybe Ironroad's idea of backing Rodney to build one might have merit?  

[BosKonay]

The beauty of irm having accurascale is that projects that would not be viable can be. We made plough vans after all. 

[David Holman]

The 7mm hand crafted brass stuff is often stunning, as shown by the D class above. Also, as Galteemore says, when you consider the hourly rate and skills required, construction costs are fair too. There seem to be enough people around to justify these models as well.

 What most ordinary folk want though is something mass produced at a more reasonable price, which Mayner shows just ain't going to happen. So, if you want something badly enough there seems to be only two options - save up, or build it yourself! The latter is the route many of us originally embarked on when rtr and poor kits meant there was no alternative and in all sorts of ways find myself grateful that I made the effort. Likewise to those who helped along the way, in print and reality.

 These days we look more and more to CAD as the saviour and maybe it will be for a lot of things, especially as I fear many of our small parts suppliers will not keep going forever. Like we nearly all have our own copier printer, the day when we can have components emailed to our own 3D printer is not that far off. Now there's a thought I rather like, especially if it means I can keep crafting my own models. RTR can be very nice, but there is nothing quite like making your own stuff for ultimate satisfaction

[Lambeg man]

1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Like we nearly all have our own copier printer, the day when we can have components emailed to our own 3D printer is not that far off.

Never a truer word spoken. Hope HP monitor this website. LM

[Ironroad]

4 hours ago, BosKonay said:

The beauty of irm having accurascale is that projects that would not be viable can be. We made plough vans after all. 

Yes, that is the standout that is cause for optimism. But I think you have sobered up since those heady days.

[Lambeg man]

On 14/12/2022 at 10:53 PM, Mayner said:

Ian McNally's MIR was probably the first casualty of the introduction of the current generation of rtr models, despite re-tooling the majority of his locomotive and rolling stock kits from whitemetal to resin.

I once had a telephone conversation with Ian in the early 1990's and one thing I suggested to him was that  he use his skills to produce a correctly 'curved' end in white metal of an MPD Railcar front that could be easily fitted on the end of a Hornby or Airfix coach without any great degree of skill. This was when Ivor Hughes was first knocking out his adaptations of UTA Railcars from RTR British models. As I recall, he said he would consider it, but clearly never did.

I am also mindful of a producer of brass kits (honestly can not remember which one) who offered a kit for an AEC Railcar, with a warning "The front cab will need extra work" or words similar. I have yet to see an ACCURATE model of an AEC Railcar with the even near correct front and that includes my own!

Anyway, as only Darius of this parish appears to have any interest in modelling 'Sputniks', perhaps my suggestion to Ian would have a waste of time commercially.   

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, Ironroad said:

Yes, that is the standout that is cause for optimism. But I think you have sobered up since those heady days.

If anything, I'd say they're even more reckless and feckless...

The blue Taras were a bold move, too old for the modern "rake" crowd and too rake-ish for the older "mixed" crowd...

NIR Mk2B generator in a livery (GBW) that only lasted 3 years tops...

22000's in liveries that were very short-lived, even that little shunter thing that goes 4mph...

And steam on the way next year! That has to be a big gamble, probably the biggest yet.

[Ironroad]

33 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

If anything, I'd say they're even more reckless and feckless...

Not sure I agree with that, variations on a theme are not quite in the category of something as unique as the ploughs. 

But yes, in fairness to IRM offerings of Irish models are a gamble and even if successful the returns are nowhere near those of British outline models. That said I'm really intrigued at  what steam loco might be offered by them. A gamble yes but I think interest is underestimated particularly if it ticks the nostalgia box. So I expect it to be something in service in the last days of steam and perhaps something that potentially has some similarity to a British loco and therefore some crossover with something that might be offered by Accurascale.  

 

[David Holman]

One thing is certain, whatever Accurascale eventually produce will be good, so all power to their collective elbows.

[DJ Dangerous]

7 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Not sure I agree with that, variations on a theme are not quite in the category of something as unique as the ploughs. 

But yes, in fairness to IRM offerings of Irish models are a gamble and even if successful the returns are nowhere near those of British outline models. That said I'm really intrigued at  what steam loco might be offered by them. A gamble yes but I think interest is underestimated particularly if it ticks the nostalgia box. So I expect it to be something in service in the last days of steam and perhaps something that potentially has some similarity to a British loco and therefore some crossover with something that might be offered by Accurascale.  

 

Variations on a theme meaning specific tooling not required, so the bowling ball 22000's are not reckless and feckless?

But the blue Taras with G1 lids, the NIR generators and driving trailers, the 22000 shunter (and catering trolley???) and the 2023 steam project are?

Just to be clear, that's all.

[Colin R]

On 14/12/2022 at 10:41 PM, leslie10646 said:

As I observed before, this thread is better than TV.

David has hit the nail on the head. If you want things from the steam and/or the steam/diesel transition era, then you will have to do a lot yourself, so the sooner you start .....

I model GNR(I), so I wanted a Class VS (Colm Flanagan), a S Class (three built for me in Hong Kong by the esteemed Daniel Wu (an Interior designer!) but heavily modified by Alan Edgar), Class SG (also Hong Kong and one built in England) and of course Class T Glover Tanks (now three!).  All, except Colm's VS are SSM kits. The Classes AL and  PP (Northstar) were a bonus, gratefully received. That's 25 years of expensive collecting.

No manufacturer, even with Squillions of Euros to spend is going to equip my shed with the things I want RTR!

If I was into the GSR (and its predecessors) I would have had a much harder job. J15s, Yes - Thanks Terry McD; the little MGWR tank; GSR coaches (SSM) but none of the many 4-4-0s John M speaks of. The Woolwich Mogul was, of course, a gift thanks to its Irish designer. So thnaks, Bachmann.

Whatever IRM come up with, it'll do well because it will be unique and even if you're modelling a different railway, you should still buy one and find a reason for having it (like my J15s and MGWR 2-4-0 at Portadown Jct!).

And don't whinge about the price - compared with my list (£500 each, maybe) it'll be a bargain.

I have a load of IRM's stuff, which has NO place whatever on a 1950s GNR layout, but thinking back to the 1960s when I first attempted an Irish layout, I can only encourage those who may take my hobby on long after I am gone.

 

 Hi Leslie, I can go along with this as I had forgotten about my pair Woolwich Moguls which are still in their boxes since I brought them, I guess we are spoiled in the UK with all the loco drawings which are available, yet while there are some Irish drawings about, it has been for me at least harder to tack down these drawing .

[Horsetan]

On 17/12/2022 at 11:04 AM, Colin R said:

 

 Hi Leslie, I can go along with this as I had forgotten about my pair Woolwich Moguls which are still in their boxes since I brought them, I guess we are spoiled in the UK with all the loco drawings which are available, yet while there are some Irish drawings about, it has been for me at least harder to tack down these drawing .

Thing about the Bachmann Woolwiches is that they are a touch narrow over the footplate - I think they scale out at 8'4" wide, rather than the MGW/GSR/CIE's 8'10". The difference is purely because of the frames being spaced to suit Irish rather than standard; all the extra is in the middle. They never did widen the cabs, though!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

Thing about the Bachmann Woolwiches is that they are a touch narrow over the footplate - I think they scale out at 8'4" wide, rather than the MGW/GSR/CIE's 8'10". The difference is purely because of the frames being spaced to suit Irish rather than standard; all the extra is in the middle. They never did widen the cabs, though!

Pity they only did the black and green versions -  a grey one would have been nice, and in a much longer-lived livery.

[Colin R]

if you look on eBay you can pick one up for around £50.00

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=BACHMANN+OO+Scale+N+class+&_sacat=0

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Colin R said:

if you look on eBay you can pick one up for around £50.00

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=BACHMANN+OO+Scale+N+class+&_sacat=0

Easy enough to pull the deflectors off it, I suppose, to make it a K2.... and stir it about in a pot of grey paint!

[Horsetan]

59 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Pity they only did the black and green versions -  a grey one would have been nice, and in a much longer-lived livery.

The other thing I'm reminded of is that the K1a variant with the 6' driving wheels kept the same wheelbase as the K1, unlike the British "U"/U1s that had a slightly shorter wheelbase, so technically you could rewheel a Bachmann K1 into a K1a with small splashers and not too much extra work.

[Mayner]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Easy enough to pull the deflectors off it, I suppose, to make it a K2.... and stir it about in a pot of grey paint!

Better still fit the loco with a number plate and its is basically correct for a loco running in GSR condition (apart from the narrower running plate/position of the cylinders and motion).

The Inchacore smokebox door with hand wheel appears to be a late Emergency/CIE modification.

 

[StevieB]

10 hours ago, Horsetan said:

The other thing I'm reminded of is that the K1a variant with the 6' driving wheels kept the same wheelbase as the K1, unlike the British "U"/U1s that had a slightly shorter wheelbase, so technically you could rewheel a Bachmann K1 into a K1a with small splashers and not too much extra work.

The boilers of the K1a’s would have been raised, just like the U1’s, to accommodate the larger diameter driving wheels.

Stephen

[Colin R]

This is beginning to sound like a modelling challenge coming up

[minister_for_hardship]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

Better still fit the loco with a number plate and its is basically correct for a loco running in GSR condition (apart from the narrower running plate/position of the cylinders and motion).

The Inchacore smokebox door with hand wheel appears to be a late Emergency/CIE modification.

 

I assume the original doors got burnt out and they just used standard Inchicore doors rather than trying to source or replicate the old ones?

[GSR 800]

8 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

I assume the original doors got burnt out and they just used standard Inchicore doors rather than trying to source or replicate the old ones?

Probably more to standardise with the rest of the fleet, the moguls weren't that old.

Whatever about the handwheels in place of the darts, the MGWR was an early adopter for some of its locos, the GNR seemed to standardise on it in the 20s and 30s and CIE began in earnest from inception. It gives Irish locos a nice 'look' in my opinion.

Edited December 19, 2022 by GSR 800

[meathdane]

Putting aside my awful paint and weathering attempt, I do have to say the moguls are rather fetching in a mundane kinda way in the grey!

I'd love one with a proper non split, dcc ready chassis and that horrific quasi kinematic drawbar revised

 

Other than that, they're a great model to cut your teeth on and a easy modification to start your irish steam conversions!

[jhb171achill]

That actually looks beautifully filthy; quite authentic.

I have a picture somewhere of a 400 which I stared at for many a year, thinking it was black or grey. I eventually got hold of a better print of it, and a tiny bit of lining could be seen on the cab and tender - so it was green!

Look at late-in-the-day colour pictures of Donegal engines. In many, you’d swear that the tank and cab sides were red, but the entire boiler, dome, tank tops and cab front were jet black, but they were red; similarly many a blue GNR loco appeared to have black domes or boiler tops….

My painting and lining skills are beyond atrocious, so an easy default is to just weather things - especially wagons - within an inch of their lives….

[GSR 800]

7 minutes ago, meathdane said:

Putting aside my awful paint and weathering attempt, I do have to say the moguls are rather fetching in a mundane kinda way in the grey!

I'd love one with a proper non split, dcc ready chassis and that horrific quasi kinematic drawbar revised

 

Other than that, they're a great model to cut your teeth on and a easy modification to start your irish steam conversions!

Very nice conversion, suitably filthy!

The bachmann models have their place in modelling history, but they are starting to show their age. The body itself holds up quite well (when it doesn't suffer from mazac rot) but the chassis is pretty subpar and not suited for any modification (one can see Noel's difficulties in chipping them). The coupler is an interesting one, it was a failed attempt at something I've seen work 20 years later in N scale. 

 

[Andy Cundick]

Or can simply use the Wills kit it regauges quite nicely to 21mm gauge and you can have it whatever colour you want,Andy

[Colin R]

 

 

1 hour ago, Andy Cundick said:

Or can simply use the Wills kit it regauges quite nicely to 21mm gauge and you can have it whatever colour you want,Andy

I also have a pair of these awaiting the day for a layout of 21mm so a K1 and a K1a might have to be be made

 

2 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Very nice conversion, suitably filthy!

The bachmann models have their place in modelling history, but they are starting to show their age. The body itself holds up quite well (when it doesn't suffer from mazac rot) but the chassis is pretty subpar and not suited for any modification (one can see Noel's difficulties in chipping them). The coupler is an interesting one, it was a failed attempt at something I've seen work 20 years later in N scale. 

 

I was under the impression that the Bachman body shell were plastic?

[GSR 800]

47 minutes ago, Colin R said:

 

 

I also have a pair of these awaiting the day for a layout of 21mm so a K1 and a K1a might have to be be made

 

I was under the impression that the Bachman body shell were plastic?

body was plastic (iirc, some parts may have been diecast), footplate was diecast. Had one where the footplate completely disintegrated from mazac rot.

[meathdane]

51 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

body was plastic (iirc, some parts may have been diecast), footplate was diecast. Had one where the footplate completely disintegrated from mazac rot.

Correct on all accounts, boiler has a sizable weight inside of it, as does the tender, the shell itself is plastic

Bit of an oddity I assume but the actual firebox controls on the foorplate themselves are one big die-cast chunk

[GSR 800]

4 minutes ago, meathdane said:

Correct on all accounts, boiler has a sizable weight inside of it, as does the tender, the shell itself is plastic

Bit of an oddity I assume but the actual firebox controls on the foorplate themselves are one big die-cast chunk

diecast footplates have been around for a while iirc, they just fell out of fashion when the mazac rot became a serious issue across a lot of locomotives. (IIRC Hornby was plagued with motor mounts with mazac rot) 

It's a shame, I wonder if that put a bit of a damper on the high quality model Hornby and others started to go for in the early 2000s starting with the Merchant Navy class, one of which I own and holds up very well. Perhaps those who were not infants at the time can put a light on that one.

I think a mogul in a decade or so would be a good RTR model for IRM, and one they can do at the same time as an N/U class release for accurascale. It's something thats been entirely omitted from the British market since the bachmann model. Perhaps it could be the one they are planning to announce, who knows, maybe the extensive lobbying from some got the turf burner into production! 

Jokes aside, I would lean on the steam locomotive they come out with first being a 'uniquely' irish type ie without a direct british prototype, as 1. Its been done with the Jinties and Moguls, and 2. I don't think they'd go for a 'repaint' of a british prototype as their first Irish model (No need to list out the mods the Ks got, ya know what I mean).

I hope that with the inevitable move into RTR Irish steam at some point in time, there will be continued support and diversification for kit suppliers and manufacturers to produce the loco types that dont lend themselves as well to RTR production. Otherwise we risk losing a great deal in the process. Mayner of this parish has produced excellent (and quite nice to assemble) loco kits in the 650s and the Achill Bogies, SSM is a staple in irish loco kits and we have an increasing number of high quality 3d printers such as Killian and Ken, along with many others. 

[BosKonay]

Our manor features diecast chassis, footplate and body

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

Mayner of this parish has produced excellent (and quite nice to assemble) loco kits in the 650s and the Achill Bogies, SSM is a staple in irish loco kits and we have an increasing number of high quality 3d printers such as Killian and Ken, along with many others. 

No Achill bogies yet, but I’d certainly be up for a couple!

Had a guy lined up in Brexitstan to do one, maybe two, for me, but apparently he now has a “proper job” and won’t be able to…… 

So if anyone can do one for me, PM!

[leslie10646]

When this link arrived in my inbox this morning, I thought that if these guys can do something as obscure as this, then almost anything is possible. Mind you, the Festiniog (all 14 miles of it) has more followers than the all the railways in Ireland.

Robert Shrives will be over the Moon!

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/5499/peco_products_oo9_ffestiniog_4_wheel_quarryman&utm_source=klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=modvehid5499-pecoquarrymanfrgreyinstock#models