GSR 800 Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 A number were indeed given a red buffer-beam e.g. page 42 of "Irish Railways in Colour - A second glance" has a photo of one pulling cattle wagons into Mullingar on the Athlone line... I stand corrected! Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 I think just 2 or 3 got the red buffer beam. I have a note somewhere but goodness knows where......... The black'n'tan repaints were never going to be far away. A grey one is suitable for 1962-8. I think the last one was repainted in 1968. Quote
DiveController Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) A number were indeed given a red buffer-beam e.g. page 42 of "Irish Railways in Colour - A second glance" has a photo of one pulling cattle wagons into Mullingar on the Athlone line... Very interesting G, I've never noticed one with the red buffer beam either. Must dig out my copy:tumbsup: Good lord but the 121 must have nearly a foot over the 141 roof profile... It's very noticeable when the 121 is adjacent to the coaching stock Edited January 20, 2016 by DiveController Quote
BSGSV Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) According to Irish Railfans' News for Feb. 1971 B123 and B127 received red bufferbeams in 1961 and 1962 respectively. This was done by Grand Canal Street depot as the locos were rostered to work the Wexford Opera special. The cab height of the 121 is very noticeable if the door is stuck and you are hanging from the handrails trying to get in! The Hasler box shown in the picture above seems a bit more sophisticated than those fitted to 121's etc., which just appear to have gearing driving a cable leading to the speedo in the cab. Edited January 20, 2016 by BSGSV Quote
Junctionmad Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 According to Irish Railfans' News for Feb. 1971 B123 and B127 received red bufferbeams in 1961 and 1962 respectively. This was done by Grand Canal Street depot as the locos were rostered to work the Wexford Opera special. The cab height of the 121 is very noticeable if the door is stuck and you are hanging from the handrails trying to get in! The Hasler box shown in the picture above seems a bit more sophisticated than those fitted to 121's etc., which just appear to have gearing driving a cable leading to the speedo in the cab. I be surprised if it was a mechanical connection, much easier to connect a non contact method and those encoders has been around for donkeys Dave Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 That's it - I thought there were two. I remember seeing a colour photo of one some years ago and it stuck out like a sore thumb..... Personally, I don't think the grey suited them - though I'll buy one! If one makes its way to the DCDR ever, perhaps the ITG will paint it grey out of interest.... Black'n'tan seems to suit everything. Often wondered what an 071, 201 or Mk 4 set would have looked like that way. Quote
BSGSV Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 I be surprised if it was a mechanical connection, much easier to connect a non contact method and those encoders has been around for donkeys Dave I'm afraid the only electricity involved is the light bulb to illuminate the dial at night! The cable from the housing on the axle end to the speedo is removable and come in different lengths for different loco types to avoid excessive slack having to be "lost". Quote
minister_for_hardship Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 That's it - I thought there were two. I remember seeing a colour photo of one some years ago and it stuck out like a sore thumb..... Personally, I don't think the grey suited them - though I'll buy one! If one makes its way to the DCDR ever, perhaps the ITG will paint it grey out of interest.... Black'n'tan seems to suit everything. Often wondered what an 071, 201 or Mk 4 set would have looked like that way. I wonder was the grey that was applied to the 121's a sort of generic factory finish, as GM (or CIE themselves) might not have been sure of what they wanted? Why didn't they get the then standard(-ish) green? It is very much an odd man out in the loco livery scheme of things. The silver was proven to be a disaster from a point of view of showing dirt, why would they choose another light colour to get similarly filthy? Or is it too much to apply logic to what CIE did? Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Through the ages, it's certainly too much to expect logic from CIE! It may well have been a factory finish, though it was properly finished rather than, say, undercoat. If it was, CIE just added the snails, numerals and other yellow bits, presumably. In terms of weathering, the B121 grey was much lighter than then wagon grey, although H and Pallet vans would soon appear in a lighter grey. A clue might be the touring coaches which were grey and yellow. I think they might have come out before the 121s, in which case CIE copied the livery from those. B121s and those road coaches were the only examples anywhere on CIE of yellow "snails". Edited January 20, 2016 by jhb171achill Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Incidentally, before these things go into production, I wonder if the detail of the lining has been properly settled, as I'm not sure. Some photos appear to show a light coloured lining - possibly white - round the yellow numerals and snails, and edging the yellow stripes below the buffer beam. Others appear black. The yellow stuff WAS lined. I wonder if both black lining and white were used on different locos, or one or the other? This is a detail I'm not sure of but which manufacturer would do well to check, especially with the exemplary accuracy in all other details. Maybe it's the photos. Photos can play tricks - unless you were there, saw the thing and know better! I never recall seeing a grey 121. I saw green, silver and black'n'tan things many a time, but not grey! If certain locos had black lining, others white, it would be helpful to know which loco numbers had which. The lining was very thin, but unlined snails and numerals wouldn't look perfect... Quote
minister_for_hardship Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Through the ages, it's certainly too much to expect logic from CIE! It may well have been a factory finish, though it was properly finished rather than, say, undercoat. If it was, CIE just added the snails, numerals and other yellow bits, presumably. In terms of weathering, the B121 grey was much lighter than then wagon grey, although H and Pallet vans would soon appear in a lighter grey. A clue might be the touring coaches which were grey and yellow. I think they might have come out before the 121s, in which case CIE copied the livery from those. B121s and those road coaches were the only examples anywhere on CIE of yellow "snails". More than just a matt undercoat, yes alright. But still looks ad hoc and not quite fitting in with the rest of what they had. A pic here of a brand new 121 being craned off the boat, minus bogies and already carrying snails, numerals and wasp stripes. Perhaps sets of transfers were either sent over or sourced and made up Stateside. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/GM_diesel_locomotive_B124_being_unloaded_from_a_ship_at_the_North_Wall_in_Dublin.jpg (bit hard to see, needs a little enlargement and they can be made out) Don't know about if the rail side of CIE took cues from the bus side, apart from the outset where the first CIE logo and livery was a variation of the DUTC scheme. Edited January 20, 2016 by minister_for_hardship Quote
Noel Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Are we in danger of nit picking and raising expectations to unrealistic levels? It's free enterprise market - so once the 121s are on the shelves and folk have had a chance to examine them, they will vote or not with their wallets. Minor details such as paint trim variations should be straight forward for modellers to adjust if they feel the need to. My own personal expectation is the new MM 121 will be top class and easily surpass the 'duck test' that applied to the chocolate fountain results from MIR etc. Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 I'll be getting one anyway, Noel, unless it's tartan! Quote
Old Blarney Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Why do you object to Tartan? It is a fine thing with a great deal of colour varieties and variants. Black watch, Hunting Stuart, and many, many more. Possibly one for you too! I believe a 121 or a 201 would look splendid in Tartan. Quote
Blaine Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Are we in danger of nit picking and raising expectations to unrealistic levels? It's free enterprise market - so once the 121s are on the shelves and folk have had a chance to examine them, they will vote or not with their wallets. Minor details such as paint trim variations should be straight forward for modellers to adjust if they feel the need to. My own personal expectation is the new MM 121 will be top class and easily surpass the 'duck test' that applied to the chocolate fountain results from MIR etc. What makes you come out with such a statement. Im very curious to know what has influenced you to say this as are a few fellow modellers. Your personal expectations and views may differ to those of others Quote
skinner75 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 All I can say is I'll be buying a couple of each livery. If they are as good as the 141s, then they'll fly off the shelves. I've been waiting a long time for MM to do the 121, and wasn't happy when there was talk of them not being done. They'll be sweet whether they run single, in pairs, or mixed with a 141! Hopefully we'll get 124 & 134 in the IE livery, as they ran together so often towards the end Quote
Junctionmad Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 I personally never care about the liveries being offered, the key is to make the model in any livery, available, paint can be changed , either professionally or by an amateur. The great thing is to have a MM 121 to paint in the first place YMMV Dave Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Fair comment, Junctionmad; better a tartan one that can be repainted in the jhb171 tartan, or oldBlarney tartan, than none at all. Someone mentioned cab height. Yes, they were a good foot higher. I footplated one years ago which was part of a pair (B130, I think). The other loco was a 141, and from sitting up there in 130's cab it looked shrunk! In model form the difference will look even more stark, I would imagine, as the modeller is looking at his models from above, rather than platform or ground height. That photo a few posts back is taken with a long telephoto lens, so exaggerates it to best effect. In reality they didn't "look" as tall as that, but there was certainly a difference of a foot in height, I'd guess. Lovely engines. (Often wondered what one would be like in plain green, but let's not go there!) Quote
minister_for_hardship Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Someone mentioned cab height. Yes, they were a good foot higher. I footplated one years ago which was part of a pair (B130, I think). The other loco was a 141, and from sitting up there in 130's cab it looked shrunk! That explains a nickname for the 121s I heard a while back and didn't get at first, the "High Nellies"! Quote
Noel Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 That explains a nickname for the 121s I heard a while back and didn't get at first, the "High Nellies"! The only High Nellie I've been on uses pedal power - http://www.highnelly.ie Michael Collins mode of transport Quote
GSR 800 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 They do make the 141/181s look very small. You wouldn't think the cab was much larger if you were just looking at it. Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Never heard that one - but appropriate! They were also, for obvious reasons, known as "yanks" by the railwaymen - even long after the 141 and 181 class had arrived... On a vaguely related note, one of the GSR's (ex-MGWR) "G2" class locos was numbered 666. The loco men called it "The Beast" (as in 666 being the "number of the Beast" in the Book of Revelations....) Some locomotive nicknames probably aren't suitable for a family forum like this... Quote
ak425 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 All I can say is I'll be buying a couple of each livery. If they are as good as the 141s, then they'll fly off the shelves.I've been waiting a long time for MM to do the 121, and wasn't happy when there was talk of them not being done. They'll be sweet whether they run single, in pairs, or mixed with a 141! Hopefully we'll get 124 & 134 in the IE livery, as they ran together so often towards the end I fully agree with you Skinner. I really look forward to running one with a 141 , with the 141 leading of course. Quote
GSR 800 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Never heard that one - but appropriate! They were also, for obvious reasons, known as "yanks" by the railwaymen - even long after the 141 and 181 class had arrived... On a vaguely related note, one of the GSR's (ex-MGWR) "G2" class locos was numbered 666. The loco men called it "The Beast" (as in 666 being the "number of the Beast" in the Book of Revelations....) Some locomotive nicknames probably aren't suitable for a family forum like this... Wonder if there was ever any "strange happenings" on 666? Some nicknames could definitely be left in the shadows... 'Twas a different time, I suppose Quote
Noel Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 One of the main retailers here in Ireland, told me when the baby GMs went on sale years ago, he had a number of clients who bought one of every single running number available from him, and one client bought four of every running number. Who in the world would want that many locos unless they have a tennis court sized layout, or are trader/collectors hoping to make a few bob profit in the future when the models are out of production? I don't get it. I am lucky to have eight baby GMs, four 071s, a single 201, and hoping to buy three or four 121s next year when they are on sale, but I won't be buying one of every livery or every running number. Hopefully over time 2xB&T 1xIR and possibly 1xGrey, which will nicely complement the existing GM fleet on the layout. Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 I suppose we all have our reasons. I'm not a collector, though I know those who are. I've an 800 as a display thing - occasional forays on layouts where it'll shine. Apart from that, a relative has a layout and anything I want to run I can always bring there. I've an unbuilt J15, and a grey 121 would be a nice contrast because if I ever get round to an 00 gauge terminus type of thing (no room for anything else), I'd be looking at 1960-5 period. So one grey one, plus the two black'n'tan 141s I have, plus the J, will do nicely. A green 101 or C might eventually join them. Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 As far as I'm aware, GSR, it was just superstition. It was indeed a different time. Quote
aclass007 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 One of the main retailers here in Ireland, told me when the baby GMs went on sale years ago, he had a number of clients who bought one of every single running number available from him, and one client bought four of every running number. Who in the world would want that many locos unless they have a tennis court sized layout, or are trader/collectors hoping to make a few bob profit in the future when the models are out of production? I don't get it. I am lucky to have eight baby GMs, four 071s, a single 201, and hoping to buy three or four 121s next year when they are on sale, but I won't be buying one of every livery or every running number. Hopefully over time 2xB&T 1xIR and possibly 1xGrey, which will nicely complement the existing GM fleet on the layout. It was almost the norm back then for everyone to buy each loco as soon as it was released. It's not all that long ago, but the reality is there was very little else available at the time for the Irish modeller to spend his cash on, and certainly not in RTR form, to the standard of the baby GMs. In the intervening years, the amount of quality RTR Irish outline stock that has become available is staggering, meaning the average modeller or collector couldn't possibly afford to purchase every new release, and has to be more selective when it comes to spending his cash. Quote
jhb171achill Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Should I mention the 1.5 billion I won in the USA lottery the other day? Quote
Broithe Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Should I mention the 1.5 billion I won in the USA lottery the other day? You've always been my favourite member on this Forum. Quote
minister_for_hardship Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 One of the main retailers here in Ireland, told me when the baby GMs went on sale years ago, he had a number of clients who bought one of every single running number available from him, and one client bought four of every running number. Who in the world would want that many locos unless they have a tennis court sized layout, or are trader/collectors hoping to make a few bob profit in the future when the models are out of production? I don't get it. The railway modeller equivalent of property speculation. Quote
GSR 800 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) You've always been my favourite member on this Forum. And with that, Broithe had seized his opportunity,No fatwas could be issued against him, even from the powerful Grey militia and the 800 mafia, as John was the head of that sort of thing, and he could obtain all knowledge of any livery variation. And yes I'm putting on the kettle. Barry's or Lyons? And yes John I have the digestives. Edited January 20, 2016 by GSR 800 Quote
DiveController Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 The Hasler box shown in the picture above seems a bit more sophisticated than those fitted to 121's etc., which just appear to have gearing driving a cable leading to the speedo in the cab. This would be the current model from them but I do not know if that is used on any of the more current rolling stock. I couldn't retrieve their 1960s version in the archives (since we barely had computers or internet). Anyway just to give a flavor for what it was. Quote
Noel Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 It was almost the norm back then for everyone to buy each loco as soon as it was released. It's not all that long ago, but the reality is there was very little else available at the time for the Irish modeller to spend his cash on, and certainly not in RTR form, to the standard of the baby GMs. In the intervening years, the amount of quality RTR Irish outline stock that has become available is staggering, meaning the average modeller or collector couldn't possibly afford to purchase every new release, and has to be more selective when it comes to spending his cash. OK. I was just curious why anybody would want or need 17 or more baby GMs, even if they had the cash. How would they even fit on typical layouts. Quote
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