Would you model in 21mm if RTR track and models were readily available?

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, murphaph said:

You cannot currently buy 21mm wheelsets for either IRM or MM locos as far as I know, certainly not from the manufacturers as you can with Accurascale locos. You would need to either extend the axles with bushes or replace them entirely.

The IRM bogies are not a plug and play replacement for the Cravens. At least some modification is required. The original bogies can of course be cut in half and a spacer installed to widen them.

The IRM stock that is 21mm ready is trivial to regauge. Just use a wheel puller to ease the wheels out on the axles and get a back to back gauge to push them back in to.

I believe at least some, maybe all of the SSM kits can be made in 21mm. The Provincial Wagons RTR models that I have are not really regaugable as they are based on GB models. I don't know if the kits are but @leslie10646 can answer that definitively for sure

Many thanks, that's really helpful. Is there a list somewhere of which of the IRM stock is '21mm ready' and which is harder work? 

I've seen some threads on regauging IRM A class and MM 141/181 which don't look too difficult given the right ingredients.

Cheers,

Mol

[DJ Dangerous]

14 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks, that's really helpful. Is there a list somewhere of which of the IRM stock is '21mm ready' and which is harder work? 

I've seen some threads on regauging IRM A class and MM 141/181 which don't look too difficult given the right ingredients.

Cheers,

Mol

 

Everything from IRM that's not on the "Ballast" chassis is 21mm-friendly.

The first run of Ballasts needed to be cut and widened to go 21mm.

The second run of Ballasts, and everything else on that chassis, can bewidened by filing the insides of the frames.

Haven't tried it myself, but there was a video interview of @Garfield and @Warbonnet a few years ago where they were asked about it.

[Mike 84C]

I have a couple of SSM vans, deffo; ok for 21mm, mine look a bit narrow gauge on 16.5mm. Only downside I think is they are whitemetal and very heavy.

[Mol_PMB]

11 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Everything from IRM that's not on the "Ballast" chassis is 21mm-friendly.

The first run of Ballasts needed to be cut and widened to go 21mm.

The second run of Ballasts, and everything else on that chassis, can bewidened by filing the insides of the frames.

Haven't tried it myself, but there was a video interview of @Garfield and @Warbonnet a few years ago where they were asked about it.

So, the "ballast" chassis is presumably the 1960s/1970s 12'0" wheelbase 20t vac fitted chassis as also used on the following prototypes (not sure if IRM have made all of these):

• Plough vans
• Cement bubbles
• 4-wheel flats 25436-25982 and 27101-300
• Barytes opens
• 4-wheel zinc ore opens
• Oil tanks 26570-89, 26628-31, 26723-28 and 26730-40
• Magnesite hoppers
• Dolomite hoppers
• Pallet cement wagons

Which might explain why some people are hoping for 21mm-ready cement bubbles in future?

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

[murphaph]

I'm pretty sure @Garfield said that all the "ballast chassis" based models were complete with the release of the magnesite wagons.

[Garfield]

Pallet cements, etc. ran on different chassis.

[DJ Dangerous]

A few posts worth adding to the 21mm discussion, lifted from THIS thread.

 

14 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Amazing models in that you can actually buy a P4 RTR version / great way into Finescale

 

14 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Next up - IRM models in 21mm gauge? Accurascale offer P4 wheelsets. Just saying… 

 

14 hours ago, Horsetan said:

They did it with the Class 24. I picked up a slightly broken cheap one and, later, an equally cheap set of P4 wheels for it. Not bad.

Accurascale's Class 55 P4 wheel pack is 98% correct for the IRM "A" class. Just fit the wheels onto the IRM axles and 21mm gauge becomes reality.

 

14 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Excellent! So it’s surely only a very small step for IRM to offer 21mm gauge wheelsets for the Irish locos? 

 

13 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Aren't there differing standards / concencus on how Irish 21mm should be implemented?

20,2mm etc...

If so, that makes offering drop-in wheelsets problematic.

I'm sure an IRM / PECO collaboration on 21mm flexible track in metre lengths is just around the corner.

I can just picture the mail-out:

Take a Peco at our newest innovation; 21mm flexible track, designed in conjunction with our friends at Peco, and due in stock with our new 21mm drop-in IRM wheelsets!

 

13 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Wheel standards are one of the challenges, I agree. 
But not impossible. Worth a discussion. 

 

13 hours ago, BosKonay said:

To be honest the take up of finescale for UK stock is so incredibly low as to not justify the cost of making them and that’s based on tens of thousands of 37’s for example already in customers hands. 

 

13 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

This kind of discussion:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/9509-would-you-model-in-21mm-if-rtr-track-and-models-were-readily-available

 

 

That's the bottom line there, that the bottom line is the bottom line.

 

13 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I've had a read.

 

10 hours ago, Mayner said:

One of the main differences between British and Irish outline modeling is the total absence of a group advocating for Irish fine-scale modelling.  The Peco EM gauge track system is exclusively available to members of the EM Gauge society an organisation that was established by members of the Manchester Model Railway Club after the Second World War, other fine scale modelling groups working in 7, 4, 3 and 2mm scales developed their individual standards and partnered with specialist manufacturers to produce the necessary components including flexible track systems, point kits and individual track components, wheels, suspension systems etc etc.

Interestingly the majority of Irish fine scale (Broad & Narrow gauge) layouts featured in New Irish Lines over the past 15-20 years were built by people who live outside of Ireland, mainly from England and a lone German. Their main motivation probably to produce something entirely different to the local modelling scene/prototype.

I guess Irish 21mm Gauge modellers could always form a group to develop and agreed set of standards and then underwrite the production of a track system and 'drop in' 21mm gauge wheel sets for Accurascale & MM Irish outline locos and stock, something I can't really see happening.

 

@Mayner hits the nail on the head with that last paragraph.

We'd need a collaboration / concensus from both IRM and MM, being the two main Irish outline manufacturers, with a group of past, present and future 21mm modellers involved, to agree on the standards that would meet the needs of the many.

You'll never please everybody, but the input from experienced 21mm modellers, and just as importantly, the likes of @murphaph who are dead set on going down that path, to pave the way for anything to happen.

I still believe that it's likely to happen one day, that we will have 21mm flexible track at the very least, but when that day arrives is anybody's guess.

With the 21mm-friendly models we have to date, and the amount of open source knowledge available, combined with advances in 3D printing at home, it would seem like a big mistake for a manufacturer to NOT cash in.

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks DJD, a good summary.

For flexitrack, it's worth remembering that the part needed is one moulding, of maybe 8 sleepers and rail fastenings connected by webs. It can be made to fit standard Peco rail, which the user could buy separately and feed into the sleepers. A dozen of those mouldings would make up a yard of track. To build 10 yards of track would use 120 of those moulded parts. 

If there's a few people interested, the numbers add up quite quickly, and would probably tip the balance towards injection moulding rather than 3D printing. But even the availability of a 3D printed part would be very welcome.

By just supplying the mouldings they would be a small and lightweight product, easy to ship.

[DJ Dangerous]

8 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thanks DJD, a good summary.

For flexitrack, it's worth remembering that the part needed is one moulding, of maybe 8 sleepers and rail fastenings connected by webs. It can be made to fit standard Peco rail, which the user could buy separately and feed into the sleepers. A dozen of those mouldings would make up a yard of track. To build 10 yards of track would use 120 of those moulded parts. 

If there's a few people interested, the numbers add up quite quickly, and would probably tip the balance towards injection moulding rather than 3D printing. But even the availability of a 3D printed part would be very welcome.

By just supplying the mouldings they would be a small and lightweight product, easy to ship.

 

That's why I feel that it would be a big marketing clanger if nobody were to cash in on this over the coming months / years.

Agree a set of standards, publish them, tool up that one 8-sleeper piece, and start printing money.

If there's demand for a set of points further down the line, then yeah, risk the investment, but all that's needed at first is some basic track, to hook more modellers into 21mm.

 

[Galteemore]

I know @murphaph was looking at producing a significant amount of track work in 21mm and was exploring various options. He may have an update on progress. In terms of commercialisation, I suspect that is really not an option. True to gauge Irish modelling is a niche within a niche, without even a lobbying society to support it. 

Edited February 9 by Galteemore

[Mol_PMB]

Agreed. I don't think 21mm gauge track is a licence to print money. 

Imagining IRM's point of view, promoting 21mm gauge adds extra challenges and costs to design models to suit multiple gauges, which may compromise the design of the more numerous 16.5mm gauge versions. Doesn't feel like good business sense, so I can appreciate their position.

For those of us who do like 21mm gauge, whether for 4mm scale 5'3" or 7mm scale 3' gauge, there are a host of different wheel and flanegway standards in use. However, for the flexitrack most of those don't matter, it's only the actual track gauge that needs to be agreed*. And that's 21mm, right? I've seen mention of 20.2mm as a theoretical EM-equivalent but is there anyone actually using it?

 

For comparison, here's an example plastic sleeper base for 22.2mm gauge, Swiss metre gauge in 1:45 continental O scale (one of my other projects). In that scale there are multiple standards too, the older RTR stuff was 22.5mm gauge with coarse wheels and flangeways, but more recent RTR models and most high-end models and scratchbuilt models use a finer scale and 22.2mm gauge. This track base takes Peco code 100 flat-bottom rail.

* there may be other issues such as bullhead vs flat-bottom, sleeper spacing, wooden vs concrete etc, but those are matters of appearance not compatibility.

[Angus]

Also not convinced there is anything to "Cash in on" here.

Most of the finescale societies (2mm, 3mm, S Scale etc) have produced their own plain track bases. These are all pretty similar, normally six sleepers on a web through which the rails are threaded.

 

The 2mm Scale Association's 8' 6" product is shown above. From memory the development of the tooling for these was a considerable investment that had to be backed by the product development fund financed by the society's membership subs.

The only commercial offerings that are similar are from British Finescale who offer a the above for standard N Gauge but for code 40 rails, finer than all commercially available track.

They do offer points kits in other scales 00, 00SF & EM but as can be appreciated these are all scales with a large following.

I doubt the interest 21mm gauge matches even the smaller of the specialist societies.

That's not to say it can't be done.

It just needs a co-ordinated effort and investment from those interested.

Edited February 9 by Angus

[DJ Dangerous]

You're probably all correct, and I'm just too optimistic about the hobby growing and more modellers buying track further down the line...

See what I did there?

 

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Agreed. I don't think 21mm gauge track is a licence to print money. 

Imagining IRM's point of view, promoting 21mm gauge adds extra challenges and costs to design models to suit multiple gauges, which may compromise the design of the more numerous 16.5mm gauge versions. Doesn't feel like good business sense, so I can appreciate their position.

 

For information, IRM already design and promote almost every single model as 21mm-friendly.

Only the very first releases were 21mm-unfriendly.

I, and most modellers I speak with in private, now take this as the standard for Irish models, thanks to IRM's perseverence.

A 21mm-unfriendly model would be quite a surprise - save for something like a steam loco where it proves unfeasable or impossible.

Forgot to add that the 2024 run of Mk2D's from Murphy Models were also 21mm-friendly.

To the naked eye, Murphy Models locos to date don't look to be 21mm-friendly, but I haven't measured, and members have converted them to 21mm:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9 by DJ Dangerous
EDIT: Mk2D's

[Horsetan]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

.....For those of us who do like 21mm gauge, whether for 4mm scale 5'3" or 7mm scale 3' gauge, there are a host of different wheel and flanegway standards in use. ....

I was only aware of P4/S4 standards being applied, via those published by the Scalefour Society, so that's what I chose to use.

To make a small fortune in finescale anything, you usually have to start with a large one. Otherwise, like integrated Irish public transport, nothing would ever get done.

[StevieB]

I think that we’re missing a trick here in that RTR EM gauge track, both plain and points, is already available from Peco, albeit via the EM gauge society only. Is there a case for a 21mm gauge society, TOM gauge for short, offering both finescale and P4 standards, to do the same?

Stephen

[DJ Dangerous]

8 minutes ago, StevieB said:

I think that we’re missing a trick here in that RTR EM gauge track, both plain and points, is already available from Peco, albeit via the EM gauge society only. Is there a case for a 21mm gauge society, TOM gauge for short, offering both finescale and P4 standards, to do the same?

Stephen

That there is a big part of the problem.

The track is not available to everyday modellers, it’s hidden behind paywalls and membetship fees and secret societies.

21mm would be doomed if it followed that same route, if it ever started in the first place.

If a modeller goes onto the Accurascale website, Mark’s Models website, Rails of Sheffield website, or wherever, they’ll buy track that’s either in stock or available to order.

The majority won’t find the 21mm option, or even know of it’s existence, if it’s hidden away.

People say that 21mm is a niche within a niche, and they are correct, but keeping it a secret from the majority of modellers won’t change that.

I’d be happy to be involved in crowd-funding 21mm track, but only if it was going to be exposed to a broad audience.

None if this hiding it away nonsense.

[Mol_PMB]

I suspect that the most practical way forward involves Templot and 3D printing. 

I think 3D printed track bases for both plain line and turnouts would actually be very easy to produce, with an understanding of Templot and 3D printers. Certainly people are churning them out in other gauges and I think the track gauge is just a simple input parameter to Templot  

However, 3D is not my strength. My mind works best with 2D stuff like etches and laser cutting. So I don’t draw in 3D CAD and I don’t have a 3D printing capability. 

We do have some people on the forum who are good at 3D printing. 

 

[Mayner]

26 minutes ago, StevieB said:

I think that we’re missing a trick here in that RTR EM gauge track, both plain and points, is already available from Peco, albeit via the EM gauge society only. Is there a case for a 21mm gauge society, TOM gauge for short, offering both finescale and P4 standards, to do the same?

Stephen

If there is a level of support for 21mm modelling as Dave suggests the first step would be to form a group to promote the gauge, develop an agreed set of standards and commission companies to produce track, drop in wheelsets and other components.

One of the biggest challenges facing a 4mm 5'3" group would be agreeing on a set of standards that would "meet the needs of the many" as Dave put it, in particular the questions of wheel profile, running clearances and minimum radius curve.

Adapting a 5'3" Standard using or derived from one of the "finescale" Standards such as P4 or EMF would potentially involve the costly replacement of the NMRA RP25 wheelsets fitted to the majority or RTR Irish outline locos and stock, a high level of precision in baseboard and track construction and larger minimum radius curves than commonly used in OO.

The majority of my (mainly steam outline) locos and stock run on EMF profile wheels set with a Back to Back dimension of 19.3mm together with a flangeway gap of 1mm through pointwork similarly derived from EM Standards.

Brendan on this forum sets the existing wheelsets on re-gauged IRM to a Back to Back of 19mm, similarly David uses a Back to Back of 19mm on his 7mm 3' Gauge (21mm models) with a 1mm flangeway gap. 

The 19.3 B-B based on EM standards may reduce hunting (side to side wobble) and on plain track compared with a 19mm B-B and reduce the risk of a wheel set "dropping down" where the track is slightly wide to gauge.

Personally a 4mm 5'3" track standard derived from the Double O Gauge Association "Intermediate" https://doubleogauge.com/standards/ or NMRA (United States) https://www.nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practices possibly with the gauge reduced to 20.2 or even 19mm may be a better option to 'meet the needs of the many" than using a P4 or EM derived standard.

The selecting a narrower gauge that 21mm in combination with an "Intermediate" standard would reduce the narrow gauge effect compared with OO, potentially allow smaller radius curves that feasible with EM or P4 and potentially allow scale width steam outline locos to be modelled with plastic injection molded or 3D printed bodies.

Personally I have never seen the absence of ready to lay 21mm gauge track or pointwork an issue, scratch or kit building steam Irish outline locos was always a greater challenge. A lot of my influence came from American modelling where traditionally there was a preference for hand-laid track (spiked to wooden ties) even on Basement Empire style layouts.

Using a bit of lateral thinking a  group could sponsor/commission 5'3" 3D printed or plastic injection molded track bases and custom order 5'3" gauge pointwork through Marcway Models Sheffield https://marcway.net/point.php

Ultrascale could be commissioned to produce "drop in" wheelsets for diesel outline locos, or potentially commission a machine shop to produce replacement stepped axles for the recent generation of RTR locos with revolving roller bearing caps.

David on this Newsgroup commissioned Marcway to produce track and points for both his 7mm Broad and Narrow Gauge Layouts, while modellers in New Zealand have commissioned local manufacturers to produce brass rail and injection molded track bases in a number of scales.

So it can be done if there is sufficient interest and a will, particularly with the availability of "21mm friendly" locos and stock from IRM & MM something that was unimaginable 20 years ago.

 

[StevieB]

I prefer to keep the track at 21mm and make the standards fit that. Anything else means you aren’t modelling 5’ 3”. I like the OO gauge standards.

Stephen

 

[Horsetan]

28 minutes ago, Mayner said:

....Using a bit of lateral thinking a  group could sponsor/commission 5'3" 3D printed or plastic injection molded track bases and custom order 5'3" gauge pointwork through Marcway Models Sheffield https://marcway.net/point.php

Ultrascale could be commissioned to produce "drop in" wheelsets for diesel outline locos, or potentially commission a machine shop to produce replacement stepped axles for the recent generation of RTR locos with revolving roller bearing caps....

3D-printed 21mm track could be an opportunity for "PlugTrack" - Martin Wynne's Templot-derived track.

Ultrascale - if you can get round the now 1 year waiting time for orders to be processed, why not?

[Mol_PMB]

I agree that the right gauge is 21mm.

I have seen 20.2mm mentioned in several places but is anyone actually using this? I can't see the point of inventing a new gauge that doesn't match either the prototype or what the modellers have already. 

19mm is almost indistinguishable from P4, and there are already established parts, standards, gauges, wheelsets etc for that. P4 may well be a valid option for Irish modelling, but it's not one that we need to provide new bits for. 

With 21mm, the basic plain track would be the same regardless of wheel standards. From the point of view of track standards, the differences are in the positioning of checkrails, and to a lesser extent wing rails, on pointwork. But these can be dealt with at the click of a button with the Templot / Plugtrack approach.

 

8 hours ago, Mayner said:

Adapting a 5'3" Standard using or derived from one of the "finescale" Standards such as P4 or EMF would potentially involve the costly replacement of the NMRA RP25 wheelsets fitted to the majority or RTR Irish outline locos and stock, a high level of precision in baseboard and track construction and larger minimum radius curves than commonly used in OO.

This is true, and another issue may be the need to add suspension or compensation to rolling stock, which in some cases will require a new or completely rebuilt chassis. It's all possible and I admire the excellent results achieved by those who do so, but it's not going to appeal to many potential new 21mm modellers. 

So far, I've dodged the issue by not building any points. But I recognise that I have a mix of wheel standards on my rolling stock which may need resolving before I run things on a layout. Swapping wheelsets isn't too hard if there's a source of alternatives, but that's a bit of a challenge. 

I haven't got the patience to wait a year for Ultrascale, and I don't think many potential new 21mm modellers would have either! I wonder how much longer Ultrascale will continue to trade; it may not be a good idea to base the development of a new set of parts on a single supplier with such long lead times and an apparent reluctance to increase capacity or outsource manufacture to improve delivery times.

Even in OO, RTR manufacturers have tended towards finer wheel profiles over time, though there remains a lot of variety out there. 

My gut feel is that the 1mm flangeway would be a place to start, which would match what quite a lot of people are using already (as listed above by John) and would tolerate the finer OO wheelsets as well as EM. In P4, the checkrail gap would need to be reduced slightly to provide full wheelset guidance at the crossing nose.

 

 

[StevieB]

10 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

That there is a big part of the problem.

The track is not available to everyday modellers, it’s hidden behind paywalls and membetship fees and secret societies.

21mm would be doomed if it followed that same route, if it ever started in the first place.

If a modeller goes onto the Accurascale website, Mark’s Models website, Rails of Sheffield website, or wherever, they’ll buy track that’s either in stock or available to order.

The majority won’t find the 21mm option, or even know of it’s existence, if it’s hidden away.

People say that 21mm is a niche within a niche, and they are correct, but keeping it a secret from the majority of modellers won’t change that.

I’d be happy to be involved in crowd-funding 21mm track, but only if it was going to be exposed to a broad audience.

None if this hiding it away nonsense.

Both EM and 21mm are very much minority scales so a society taking the financial risk of providing RTR track is surely the only way forward.

Stephen

[Mol_PMB]

With traditional injection moulding there was a huge up-front cost in the tooling, which had to be funded by a society as you say.

But with modern 3D printing technology such as the Templot / Plug track process it's apparently possible to design and print custom turnout and track bases with a few clicks of a button. 

I don't think the traditional approach is the only way forward.

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

..... I haven't got the patience to wait a year for Ultrascale, and I don't think many potential new 21mm modellers would have either! I wonder how much longer Ultrascale will continue to trade; it may not be a good idea to base the development of a new set of parts on a single supplier with such long lead times and an apparent reluctance to increase capacity or outsource manufacture to improve delivery times....

As you know, Ultrascale is a one-man band. I've never seen a wait time shorter than 5 months. In many ways, he's a victim of his own successful products because, as soon as he manages to reduce the lead times, word gets round and everyone piles their orders in, leading to an immediate lengthening of wait times, sometimes longer than previously!

It's not inconceivable that customers have dropped dead before receiving their order...

[Mayner]

Use of a marginally narrower gauge than 21mm.

One of the arguments against using 21mm gauge with EM or RP25 profile wheels for modelling Irish steam outline locos is whether to compromise by widening/distorting the body to allow the wheels and running gear to fit or whether to reduce the gauge. The issue with wheel clearences with sheet metal bodies in P4 as the wheels are basically scaled down from the prototype as opposed to a compromise designed to allow reliable running in a limited space. 

The use of 20.2mm as opposed to the prototypical 21mm is not significantly different from the EM Gauge Society use of 18.2mm for Standard gauge compared to P4 18.83. The EM (Eighteen Millimeter) Gauge was initially developed to provide a more protypical gauge and wheel standards than OO and subsequently widened to 18.2mm. 18mm appears to have been selected as a results of the limitations of the techniques and components availabe at the time.

While not my personal taste reducing the gauge below 21mm would potentially allow modellers to use steam outline locos with plastic injection moulded, die-cast or 3D printed bodies without major modification. 

Stephen once said that it was not practicable to produce an EM gauge rtr version of the Accurascale Manor s it was not practicable to achieve sufficient running clearance as a result of the characteristics of the meaterials used, similarly its necessary to modify the running board and splashers of Bachmann LMS 3F & 4F 0-6-0s and 0-4-4T for EM or S4 gauge.

I have built several 21mm gauge steam outline locos from etched kits using Gibson OO/EM profile wheels, acheiving sufficient running clearance on locos such as an SSM J15 or GNR S was challenging, basically paper thin clearances between wheels splasher sides.

There are similar issues converting the 1st generation of MM B141/181 Class to 21mm gauge the original RP25 profile wheels foul on the bogie sideframe. Two of my B141s are fitted with Ultrascale wheelsets, the third retains it original Bachmann wheelsets on new axles with ther rear of the bogie sideframes ground away to provide clearance.

Components:

One of the advantages of forming a society, group or becoming a trader is the ability to source componets in bulk potentially at a trade rate or discount.

Wheels axles.

For example Markits fitted an order (1000+) wagon & coach wheel sets on 28mm axles (suitable for 21mm gauge) into their production schedule when I placed an order several years ago.

Similarly Markits were willing to produce a 21mm gauge axle suitable for their steam loco driving wheels based on a minimum production quantity of 1000. Markit wheels are extremely robust, relaatively simple to use and ideal for intensively used locos. I am not sure if the business is currently in operation as I understand that the owner was ill.

Utrascale may be willing to reduce their 12 month lead time if a group or society were to place a bulk order for 'drop in wheelsets" for Irish GM diesels, or a bulk order for replacement diesel locos placed with an Irish or UK machnie shop.

Track points.

While Templot plug track may be suitable for finescale use, a simpler system based on a one piece 3D printed sleeper strip with integral rail fixing is likely to be more attractive for general use particularly those using re-gauged RTR quipment with their existing RP25 wheels pushed out to Irish "Broad Gauge"

Injection moulded plastic flexible track bases may be worth considering a number of UK cottage industry suppliers including SMP(Marcway) C&L produced EM flexible track using plastic bases many years before Peco produced their EM gauge track system in colloboration with the EM Gauge Society.

Similarly a society could comission Marcway to produce a bulk order of 21mm gauge points as opposed to producing 21mm gauge points to order.

[Horsetan]

Late news: the Markits option may no longer be available, as the death of its proprietor Mark Arscott has been announced.

[David Holman]

As well as being very sad news, that is a real blow, leaving just Gibson and Ultrascale as the only option for kit builders.

Mayner's comments nicely clarify the 21mm gauge issues: works with metal bodied, steam locos, but not with plastic or resin. That said, if a loco has no splashers, there are no clearance problems - though not many of these on the Irish scene.

 EM gauge may not be perfect for 4mms scale, but has been a practical option for about 70 years now - though also the time it has taken to get limited commercial support for track!

 I think modern image has a chance with 21mm while Andy Cundick clearly knows how to make it work with steam and diesel on Valencia Harbour. I suspect that what we are looking at here though is a workable option to convert rtr to 21mms and, for now at least, it remains more in the realm of kit and scratch building.

[Mayner]

Really sorry to hear about Mark's passing, I enjoyed his sense of humour and we had several long telephone  conversations often late at night (living in different time zones) when placing/following up on orders and ending up talking about life in general.

Marks willingness to incorporate a run of wheelsets with 28mm pin point axles into his production allowed me to produce a range of "21mm friendly" wagons of which I sold over 300 in RTR and Kit form over a 3 year period and built up a nice collection for my own use.

Oddly enough one of my customers used EM for modelling the Irish Broad gauge for many years, but last year commissioned me to assemble a D17 in OO feeling that he just has not got the time to work in EM as he get older.

In "Railway Modelling" published about 65 years ago Cyril Freezer (Author & long time Editor Railway Modeller) commented that it took 'approximately twice as long" to get something up and running in EM as OO, which I believe still applies today.

Edited February 11 by Mayner

[Rob R]

I have no axe to grind on this as you are all modelling the wrong scale anyway

No point messing with 20.2mm gauge or whatever, if 21mm doesn't suit then save yourself a load of time and effort and stick with 16.5mm.

There is no snobbery amongst the modellers of the Irish scene and nobody will look down their noses at you for using the "wrong" gauge track.

Generally, if you are going to model any minority scale/gauge combination then you are going to have to get your hands dirty and do some scratchbuilding along the way, for the 4mm/21mm gauge that means track and especially pointwork.

For the few parts of the system that used Bullhead then the existing C&L (or similar) injection moulded chairs and sleepers can be used, fairly straight forward with a bit of practice, pre machined crossings and blades are readily available for those that need them and Templot can generate the templates (with a bit of practice or a helpful friend). The pain of doing yards of plain track can be eased with the latest developments in Templot plug/COT track and a home 3d printer (or another friend who has one?).

Flatbottom plain track is feasable with a home FDM 3d printer as my experiments with the S Scale code 75 are showing and no doubt Paul will document his progress on Broombridge in the fullness of time. Even the cheapest of the FDM printers will do it and the material cost (sleepers, not rail!) is just pennies.

Of course back in the "old days" the likes of Mike Sharman, Colin Binnie and Roy Link would have just milled up a simple brass die and squirted hot plastic around the kitchen with their homemade injection moulding machines - in fact Roy did with his 7mm/14mm gauge NG track although that needs the rails spiking down through the pre-moulded holes.

If someone was going to put their hands in their pockets for a  few sleepers worth of injection moulded plain track base is there a consesus on what rail size to use?

Code 75, 83 or 100?

Enough of my rambling..

Rob

 

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Rob R said:

....If someone was going to put their hands in their pockets for a  few sleepers worth of injection moulded plain track base is there a consesus on what rail size to use?

Code 75, 83 or 100?

Code 75, I would have thought.

EDIT to add: I did wonder, if you were just wanting to mess with 21mm first, whether there might be some mileage in taking a short length of RTR 16.5, sawing the sleepers down the middle and then inserting/glueing in your own plasticard fillers to space things out to 21mm. I remember reading about someone who did this when he needed some quick plain track for a fiddle yard in P4, but only had some OO to hand. He was surprised to find his rough method worked.

Obviously you'd still need a track gauge or two to ensure the rails were correctly spaced, but this sounds a relatively cheap way of trying things out.

Edited February 11 by Horsetan

[Rob R]

A frequently used dodge by S scalers for fiddleyard track.

[Horsetan]

27 minutes ago, Rob R said:

A frequently used dodge by S scalers for fiddleyard track.

Sometimes improvisation is the only thing available.

[Rob R]

19 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Sometimes improvisation is the only thing available.

Lazyess is the mother of invention.

[Rob R]

A batch of 21mm gauge sleeper bases in production for someone on here who is brave enough to give it a go.

No name, no pack drill

[Mol_PMB]

I'd like to try some of them, please!