Another view on Accuruscale

[spudfan]

Some discussion here on another forum about Accuruscale wagons.

Accurascale Wagon Packs - New Railway Modellers Forums

[Ironroad]

Inclined to agree with the sentiment that selling in multiple packs can be a turnoff, but understand the the business reasons for it.   I'm not too happy with the combinations the MK 2b coaches are being sold.

[murphaph]

It'd be interesting to know how much extra you'd be paying per wagon if they were sold individually packaged. 

With the cost of shipping at an all time high right now, I'm guessing that would feed in significantly. You would be shipping a lot fewer wagons per container if they all had their own box.

For the moment I prefer the multipacks as I suspect the cost per wagon is a good bit less and the boxes take up less space in storage.

[murphaph]

Maybe if folks want a particular wagon or coach from a multipack, they could start a classified thread to find a swap partner in advance of purchase.

[Mayner]

 

 

11 minutes ago, murphaph said:

It'd be interesting to know how much extra you'd be paying per wagon if they were sold individually packaged. 

With the cost of shipping at an all time high right now, I'm guessing that would feed in significantly. You would be shipping a lot fewer wagons per container if they all had their own box.

For the moment I prefer the multipacks as I suspect the cost per wagon is a good bit less and the boxes take up less space in storage.

Packaging is a significant % of manufacturing cost, model railway items likely to be above average due to the small size and delicate nature of the product. 

https://www.libertypackaging.com/blog/bid/97272/a-look-at-packaging-costs

A single box for 2-3 items would substantially reduce the packaging set up/tooling cost the material costs would be pro-rata.

Obviously Accurascale items would be expected to sell in substantially larger volumes that IRM an the packaging cost lower.

[BosKonay]

Generally we've gone for subjects that lend themselves to 'rakes' (like the mk2b's so you can assemble a complete train from a few packs). The pack idea lets us increase the volume we will sell, reduce packing and shipping costs (we ship less 'air' across the world) and makes the RRP lower. Our latest HUO run, is a triple pack at just £69.95 for three, when our larger competition are selling older tooled, single wagons at £35-45 each, versus the £23 each we can do the HUO for

[Broithe]

57 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Maybe if folks want a particular wagon or coach from a multipack, they could start a classified thread to find a swap partner in advance of purchase.

I did something along those lines in Lidl a couple of weeks ago.

I had gone for supplies - "not buying any beer this week!" - but there was a woman there who wanted just a single can of Guinness for her Christmas cake - of course there were only 4, 8 and 12 can multipacks available.

For some reason, the 8-pack had the lowest unit price, so I got one and gave her one of the cans.

On my return home, I expected to be strongly congratulated on my high sense of seasonal goodwill - but, of course, it looked like I had just bought beer anyway - and I'd, obviously, also drunk a can on the way home...

 

Bah, humbug!

[connollystn]

The reality is that Accurascale (and I.R.M.) are bringing models of rolling stock to the market that otherwise may not have been produced in any shape or form by other manufacturers. The thread in that forum [New Railway Modellers] about Accurascale wagon packs will be a minority view. Modellers should be more than grateful for the amount of investment in both money and time that manufacturers go through to get their product to you. Murphaph made a useful suggestion (see above) which should help those who only want one item from a multi-pack.

PS. I only want one Rolo..................

[jhb171achill]

Some of us are lucky enough to be in a position to go out and buy half a dozen multi-packs of anything we want (provided Mrs. Woman doesn’t find out!), but I’m sure we all remember saving hard to have enough pocket money for one Hornby 4-wheeled wagon.

I can recall giving up any hope of buying a “Flying Scotsman” at about £5 when pocket money ran at a shilling or two a week…..

However, if I was one of the younger or budget modellers today, given the quality of IRM or Accurascale stuff, I’m quite sure it would be feasible to buy a pack of three (employing the Bank of Mum & Dad) and keeping one and selling the other two individually to others in the same boat…..?

[Westcorkrailway]

28 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Some of us are lucky enough to be in a position to go out and buy half a dozen multi-packs of anything we want (provided Mrs. Woman doesn’t find out!), but I’m sure we all remember saving hard to have enough pocket money for one Hornby 4-wheeled wagon.

I can recall giving up any hope of buying a “Flying Scotsman” at about £5 when pocket money ran at a shilling or two a week…..

However, if I was one of the younger or budget modellers today, given the quality of IRM or Accurascale stuff, I’m quite sure it would be feasible to buy a pack of three (employing the Bank of Mum & Dad) and keeping one and selling the other two individually to others in the same boat…..?

The hardest part of getting a mortgage from bank of mum and dad is justifying spending any money at all on trains in the first place. Never mind trying to explain how a train the same size as there phone costs as much of not more!

[Ironroad]

As I said I understand the business logic of multiple packs. This can also make perfect sense for modellers putting together rakes of wagons. But I'm not so sure about three packs of coaches.  With regard to the MK2b coaches it would be a lot more flexible if two and three packs were on offer. This would open up the possibility of purchasing rakes of 2, 3, 4, 5. 6, 7, 8, 9, rather than the current 3, 6, 9, that is being offered. And in fact as packaged all three packs must be purchased to create a prototypical rake, when I believe as few as 7 was prototypical on the Enterprise. Personally I have three packs on order but would have opted to buy more had there been more flexibility, that is I would have ordered both  liveries rather than just one.       

[BosKonay]

40 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

As I said I understand the business logic of multiple packs. This can also make perfect sense for modellers putting together rakes of wagons. But I'm not so sure about three packs of coaches.  With regard to the MK2b coaches it would be a lot more flexible if two and three packs were on offer. This would open up the possibility of purchasing rakes of 2, 3, 4, 5. 6, 7, 8, 9, rather than the current 3, 6, 9, that is being offered. And in fact as packaged all three packs must be purchased to create a prototypical rake, when I believe as few as 7 was prototypical on the Enterprise. Personally I have three packs on order but would have opted to buy more had there been more flexibility, that is I would have ordered both  liveries rather than just one.       

I guess that bears the question would you prefer a triple pack of coaches for €199.99 or single coaches at €89.99

[Ironroad]

15 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

I guess that bears the question would you prefer a triple pack of coaches for €199.99 or single coaches at €89.99

That's missing the point I was making.  But YES I would prefer and would accept paying a premium for a pack that contained the specialty items, IE the driving trailer and restaurant car rather than being forced to buy them separately in packs that contain a total four additional coaches. Forcing customers to buy more than they can accommodate on a layout to create a prototypical train is a bit unreasonable. Secondly I didn't actually advocate selling the coaches separately but did suggest that selling in twos and threes would make more sense than simply selling them in lots of three.  Were that the case I would have ordered a total of fourteen coaches rather then the nine I have on order. 

[Warbonnet]

27 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

That's missing the point I was making.  But YES I would prefer and would accept paying a premium for a pack that contained the specialty items, IE the driving trailer and restaurant car rather than being forced to buy them separately in packs that contain a total four additional coaches. Forcing customers to buy more than they can accommodate on a layout to create a prototypical train is a bit unreasonable. Secondly I didn't actually advocate selling the coaches separately but did suggest that selling in twos and threes would make more sense than simply selling them in lots of three.  Were that the case I would have ordered a total of fourteen coaches rather then the nine I have on order. 

Forcing? Really? Come on, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. I think that's a poor choice of words, to be fair. 

[Ironroad]

10 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

Forcing? Really? Come on, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. I think that's a poor choice of words, to be fair. 

Please have the good grace to take constructive comments on board. As I've said twice already the approach you have taken was at least for me a disincentive to buy more that I otherwise might have.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Ironroad
typo

[NIRCLASS80]

13 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

Forcing? Really? Come on, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. I think that's a poor choice of words, to be fair. 

Please force me to sell the house to buy a fleet of 80's!!!

[Warbonnet]

19 hours ago, Ironroad said:

Please have the good grace to take constructive comments on board. As I've said twice already the approach you have taken was at least for me a disincentive to buy more that I otherwise might have.

Constructive comments are welcome, appreciated and taken on board, but there is no need for the hyperbole. 

At the end of the day, NIR is a niche in a niche that is Irish outline model railways. While on face value these coaches can be perceived as "just a relivery of British Rail Mark 2s" its not as simple as that. The tooling required for the grille, genny and driving car, not to mention the correctly widened bogies adds up and we need to make sure that this large extra investment is covered. Triple packs are the most viable and fiscally common sense way for us to do this. We are very sorry that you are dissatisfied with this approach, but it was either this way, or no Enterprise Mark 2s at all.

Thanks,

Fran  

[RedRich]

Is there a position in the government for a Minister of Complaints. There should be. There's a few nailed on candidates for the position on here..

Rich,

[StevieB]

21 hours ago, Ironroad said:

That's missing the point I was making.  But YES I would prefer and would accept paying a premium for a pack that contained the specialty items, IE the driving trailer and restaurant car rather than being forced to buy them separately in packs that contain a total four additional coaches. Forcing customers to buy more than they can accommodate on a layout to create a prototypical train is a bit unreasonable. Secondly I didn't actually advocate selling the coaches separately but did suggest that selling in twos and threes would make more sense than simply selling them in lots of three.  Were that the case I would have ordered a total of fourteen coaches rather then the nine I have on order. 

Sorry, but what are you moaning about? You would have bought fourteen coaches but you’ve bought nine instead. Sell any surplus on eBay or on this website.

Stephen

[Ironroad]

Wow, lesson learned I'll say no more other than to point out that, what prevails here is'-

“A mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members' strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action.”

 

[David Holman]

My own thoughts are these are not toys, so are being bought by grown ups. Likely as not on a budget, but not exactly pocket money. As niche items, they are not going to sell in the thousands, so the prices will inevitably be higher.

 You only have to look around to see how much rtr models cost now - the new Bachmann double Fairlie is well over £200, for an 009 loco, for example. Indeed, not sure that adult railway modelling has ever been cheap, although the quality of what is available these days is exponentially better than 20-30 or more years ago, which means ever greater value.

[jhb171achill]

"Adult" modelling has never been cheap anywhere, and where cheap models are available of anything, it's a case of compromising quality. ("You get what you pay for"). Undoubtedly, the words "compromise" and "quality" do not even fit in the same sentence in IRM-land.

Any hobby is expensive at a serious end. Look at golf clubs / green fees, or what serious-head fishermen or cyclists cough up in support of their hobbies.....

[spudfan]

From Derails

New Accuruscale Siphon bogie wagon. £54.95 each. 10% discount  on two or more.

ACC2411-W2938W Accurascale OO gauge Siphon G - Dia. O.33 - BR Carmine Red, W2938W (derails.co.uk)

Edited December 16, 2021 by spudfan

[Mayner]

11 minutes ago, spudfan said:

From Derails

New Accuruscale Siphon bogie wagon. £54.95 each. 10% discount  on two or more.

ACC2411-W2938W Accurascale OO gauge Siphon G - Dia. O.33 - BR Carmine Red, W2938W (derails.co.uk)

Interesting comparison with the Lima Siphon G which was considered to be a good model by the standards of the time https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/24060-lima-siphon-g/

[BosKonay]

22 minutes ago, spudfan said:

From Derails

New Accuruscale Siphon bogie wagon. £54.95 each. 10% discount  on two or more.

ACC2411-W2938W Accurascale OO gauge Siphon G - Dia. O.33 - BR Carmine Red, W2938W (derails.co.uk)

Or buy direct from accurascale.com with delivery from Dublin 

[spudfan]

My point in posting was that they do sell wagons singly. Bearing in mind the size of the UK market compared to the market for Irish models here they probably commission a larger run of the UK models. It might be feasible economically to sell wagons singly for the large UK market but might not be feasible here. Then there is the 10% discount on two or more which gives a discount of £16.49 on three of the siphons, that gives a price of £148.36. Converting to € that is cheaper than the three Mark 2b coaches , but that is probably down to the economy of scale between the two markets. It would be interesting to see a per unit price for the Mark 2b coaches if packaged and sold as single units. But if you only bought one coach there would probably be an add on delivery charges. The initial outlay for a pack of three units may seem expensive but when you factor in all costs to be recouped it is probably the most economical way of doing it. Be that as it may it does not address the issue if somebody only wants one or two single units, but most of the models they sell are based on wagons than ran in rakes rather than single vans.

I admit that if you are stuck for space for your layout six coaches may be too long for you to accomodate and maybe four would do. Maybe there is a niche for units to be sold in single units. If the extra unit was sold with the multi pack that might negate the need for a delivery charge on the single item if bought on it's own. I think it's a matter of the customer letting their needs be known and for the manufacturer to gauge whether it is worth while to cater for it.

 

[Georgeconna]

 I don't mind the Multi packs if they keep the price down, I am lucky to be able to have the sponds to get these. Good idea in buying a pack a flogging the rest. The multi packs are grand for the long trains for sure.

And that's probably the main issue for me and others is space and the Length of the Irish Trains, so has me thinking about Modelling and how to Model an Irish layout properly.  Ie Mk.3 lengths and block trains but thats my own issue!!

Grand with a 141 and a few cravens to muck about with. but even a Large 12ft layout with proper rake of Mk.3's looks daft.

 

 

[murphaph]

Hopefully some decent MK3 push pulls will be along sooner rather than later and then you can run a DVT +  2 intermediate + 121 totally prototypically.

 

[GSR 800]

Alright I'll give my two cents.

I think a fair point is raised, multipacks ultimately lower the flexibility of the consumer as to what they can or cannot purchase, what they have to purchase with. Speaking from experience as a younger modeller, multipacks have put the brakes on purchasing sometimes due to cost. However..

Most of what IRM has produced up to now rolling stock wise has been outside of my preferred era

Wagons bought in rakes of three is just common sense in my opinion, ballasts, bubbles etc ran in uniform(ish) trains. If I want to buy wagons, I will generally buy a rake. If Accurascale/IRM release a H van, cattle wagon, palvan etc I'd want to buy them in large numbers, therefore I want value for money, which I will get from multipacks. Also better use of packaging.

Coaches are trickier. I'm not really a fan of 'just buy the packs and sell off what you don't need', but ultimately it comes down to a cost benefit analysis for the manufacturer, what can be produced at a profit and a reasonable price. We're a small market, so that trade off is important, and ultimately thats what has to make sense first to deliver the product. I don't think there should be a pile on of 'don't be ungrateful' but I think the question/criticism has been answered pretty thoroughly by IRM.

Yes, it's not the ideal for everyone, it's a compromise, but a necessary one to get these goods to market, according to the people who are manufacturing it. Better something (which is high quality too) than nothing?

So when are the laminates, the steel sides, Sambo in GSR and CIE guise, Pat the vertical boiler, Dick the mare....

 

[connollystn]

Hi guys, the moaning and complaining stops here. I remember a time when I'd go to the ends of the Earth to get my hands on any Lima 'CIE' model (I certainly know that some of you did also), they were desperate times. We've come from one extremity to another. 20 years ago we had nothing and now, we have models that compare to the best. I practically shed a tear when I got my Murphy Models 121 - it is so good and didn't think anything else would ever compare - then I.R.M. produced the A class. It [A Class] is the model I was waiting for most of life and still can't believe they've actually come to fruition. If I'm desperate enough for a wagon I'll buy a multi-pack - certainly better than any respray of a British Rail prototype. I commend the guys, Patrick Conboy et al, for their hard work and dedication to bringing us such fantastic models. We Irish Railway Modellers owe them a lot of gratitude.

[BosKonay]

12 hours ago, spudfan said:

My point in posting was that they do sell wagons singly. Bearing in mind the size of the UK market compared to the market for Irish models here they probably commission a larger run of the UK models. It might be feasible economically to sell wagons singly for the large UK market but might not be feasible here. Then there is the 10% discount on two or more which gives a discount of £16.49 on three of the siphons, that gives a price of £148.36. Converting to € that is cheaper than the three Mark 2b coaches , but that is probably down to the economy of scale between the two markets.

 

If you compare like with like - use the Mark 2b BR examples - https://accurascale.com/collections/mark-2-coaches

Three of them will cost you €209.82, or €188.38 with the 10% discount.

On the basis that we are manufacturing some 5 times more UK / Accurascale Mk2's than Irish, charging only €199 for three Irish examples is actually only possible by having the large volume of UK examples subsidise the price.

[murphaph]

I'd also be concerned that sales of the EGV's and diners individually would be very difficult to predict. A lot of chaps might buy those to complete Lima rakes. Selling them in what are essentially complete rakes must make it easier to predict the numbers required.

I definitely prefer this triple pack "problem" than the alternative problem which is what we have with the Cravens... namely no high quality RTR GSV at all.

I think we should all be able to do deals here. I will be in the market for a couple of standards to renumber as I have the space to run full length specials but the 9 coaches in the bumblebee livery isn't "enough" so I would be in the market for a couple more. If someone has a typical layout in the box room and 9 coaches would look ridiculous, I could take a couple of standards off their hands. Everyone's a winner.

I'm sure suitable buyers and sellers can meet each other in the classifieds right here

 

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, murphaph said:

I'd also be concerned that sales of the EGV's and diners individually would be very difficult to predict. A lot of chaps might buy those to complete Lima rakes. Selling them in what are essentially complete rakes must make it easier to predict the numbers required.

I definitely prefer this triple pack "problem" than the alternative problem which is what we have with the Cravens... namely no high quality RTR GSV at all.

I think we should all be able to do deals here. I will be in the market for a couple of standards to renumber as I have the space to run full length specials but the 9 coaches in the bumblebee livery isn't "enough" so I would be in the market for a couple more. If someone has a typical layout in the box room and 9 coaches would look ridiculous, I could take a couple of standards off their hands. Everyone's a winner.

I'm sure suitable buyers and sellers can meet each other in the classifieds right here

 

That issue applies no doubt to a number of types of vehicles “at the end of the train”; BR vans, Dutch vans, tin vans in their several varieties, EGVs and TPOs.

6 hours ago, murphaph said:

I'm sure suitable buyers and sellers can meet each other in the classifieds right here

 

You could always flog them on fleabay for €799.99 each + postage + customs + duty + import + delivery +  taxes…..