Hattons launch 'Irish' range of Genesis Coaches

[jhb171achill]

USES FOR SIX-WHEELERS IN THE DIESEL ERA

As most will be aware, 6-wheelers lasted in day to day use here for decades longer than in the neighbouring island. 

Mass dieselisation, however, kicked off here to a greater extent, earlier than in Britain.

Therefore, while six-wheelers would never have been seen in Britain being trailed round by class 47s, or tacked onto the back of a Metro-Cammell railcar set (sorry, “DMU” in brexitese), such was commonplace here; see numerous pictures of brand new A & C class diesels hauling a rake of 1890s six-wheelers to Youghal, Valentia Harbour, or in Wisht Caark.

So, what goes with what?

To start, where were 5-wheelers actually seen in passenger-carrying use?

Until around 1900, all the railways of Ireland overwhelmingly used 6-wheelers, usually 30ft, but as short as 27ft (CBSCR) or as long as 37ft (BCDR).

Bogies started taking over then, and by the mid 1920s, while six-wheelers greatly outnumbered them, they had made considerable inroads into main line trains. By the start of the CIE era, most main line services had bogies, but very large stocks of 6-wheelers remained.

The first wave of mass dieselisation was the AEC railcars which would populate the GNR and CIE in 1950 and 1953 onwards.

There is photographic evidence of ancient six-wheelers tagged onto the end of these. Offhand, I can think of photos taken on the Harcourt St line if a 3-car AEC towing a MGWR 3rd of 1890s origin, and a similar scene of a 4-car towing a similar vehicle on the South Kerry. With Albert Quay retaining some very old six-wheelers to the end, it’s highly probable thus happened on the CBSCR too.

As we’re aware, prior to the advent in 1972 of the Mk 2 sets, almost every passenger train going way back, was a mixture of all sorts of carriage types. 

As far as 6-wheeler stock was concerned, this resulted in a possibility of these appearing in trains otherwise made up of bogies, or even complete 6-wheeled sets, on any branch or secondary service, and on Cork and DSER suburban traffic; also DSER and Youghal summer excursions.

After the delivery of the A & C classes in the mid-50s, this would have resulted in six-wheelers being hauled by these diesels right up to the demise of the last of them in 1963. 

Thus, silver or green A & C classes are suitable DIESEL haulage for them, as are AEC railcar sets. And, of course, these diesels plus the 6-wheelers rubbed shoulders in (typically) mixed rakes with (new) Park Royals and laminates, and older Bredins and wooden bogies.

While main line loco-hauled trains by the diesel era rarely saw them, busy days saw exceptions. I’ve seen a picture of a train somewhere near Hazelhatch, I think, steam hauled about 1957/8, with old wooden bogies and at least one 6-wheeler.

All of the above relates to passenger carrying 6-wheelers.

Full vans, however, were another matter.

In addition to the above, these were very much to be seen on main lines as well, right into the dawn of the black’n’tan era. After the entire remaining fleet of passenger-carrying ones were withdrawn in 1963, about half a dozen full vans survived. Several, as followers of the Hattons thread will know, even managed to gain the black’n’tan livery (no passenger ones ever did).

Despite passenger-carrying ones having become rare on main lines in the 50s, these last few vans ironically ended their days on main line trains, carrying mailbags usually. About three were still on the books up to 1969/70, but the latest photographic evidence I’ve seen is an old GSWR 6-wheeler full brake tagged onto an up Galway mail hauled by a B121 as late as 1968.

So, in summary; a modeller could mix and match them with absolutely anything ancient or modern until the end ifvthe grey’n’green era, and steam, in 1963. The full van version, either in later (light green) livery or black tan, can be added onto a train right up to 1970.

Suitable diesel haulage, then:

Passenger-carrying: steam, silver or green A or C; and theoretically a brand-new grey B121.

Non passenger (full van): the above, plus B141/181 in black or black’n’tan.

When the first locos were repainted in “Supertrain” livery in 1972, the very last two six-wheeled vans had been out of use some three or four years.

The Hattons range are very close indeed to GSWR design. However, by some quirk, in later days (early 1960s), the vast majority of passenger-carrying ones were of MGWR origin (very different) while the majority of old full vans were ex-GSWR.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by jhb171achill

[popeye]

Good info there GHB, I would like to see a picture of one of those 5 wheelers.

Never heard of that before. 

[jhb171achill]

16 minutes ago, popeye said:

Good info there GHB, I would like to see a picture of one of those 5 wheelers.

Never heard of that before. 

I’ll just add a wheel to my post!

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

.The first wave of mass dieselisation was the AEC railcars which would populate the GNR and CIE in 1950 and 1953 onwards.

There is photographic evidence of ancient six-wheelers tagged onto the end of these. With Albert Quay retaining some very old six-wheelers to the end, it’s highly probable thus happened on the CBSCR too.

 

yes.

1 (2 the odd time) 6 wheel coaches would be placed at the end of the Railcar sets. 

[DJ Dangerous]

On 8/11/2023 at 7:42 PM, Edo said:

If only you knew somebody in the business.....

 

And if only YOU knew somebody who could bribe IRM with lemon cookies!

 

On 8/11/2023 at 4:48 PM, jhb171achill said:

Yes, absolute last coaches in maroon were early to mid 50s, but really the period 1945-50 is when there would have been more of a mix.

 

I'd probably buy one or two coaches, but it's quite a restrictive period as regards pulling power.

Now, if Hatton's were to launch them AFTER an IRM steam loco had been formally announced, that would change my perspective.

Are the Hattons Genesis range 21mm-friendly? Sorry if that's already been asked / answered, too lazy to go back over the thread.

[Galteemore]

The Hattons range will not be 21mm friendly, I suspect. With footboards etc I imagine clearances would be tight 

[Westcorkrailway]

30 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

.

Are the Hattons Genesis range 21mm-friendly? Sorry if that's already been asked / answered, too lazy to go back over the thread.

No there not going to be. 

[Ironroad]

17 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

I'd probably buy one or two coaches, but it's quite a restrictive period as regards pulling power.

Now, if Hatton's were to launch them AFTER an IRM steam loco had been formally announced, that would change my perspective.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Snap up what's available when you can.   And we already have had releases of three locos that hauled them

[DJ Dangerous]

18 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Snap up what's available when you can.   And we already have had releases of three locos that hauled them

 

When I go to the Chinese, the chicken curry and egg fried rice come together, and I like my trains like my Chinese. All delivered together and loaded with MSG and chilli.

[Westcorkrailway]

41 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Snap up what's available when you can.   And we already have had releases of three locos that hauled them

People who purchased murphy models products got far better value before IRM came along and made the rolling stock. I’d recommend anyone who wants these get them now. Because often the hattons 6 wheelers sell out the day of or even before release.

[DJ Dangerous]

19 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

People who purchased murphy models products got far better value before IRM came along and made the rolling stock. I’d recommend anyone who wants these get them now. Because often the hattons 6 wheelers sell out the day of or even before release.

 

Wait, what? The 1945-1950 maroon coaches are already available? I thought JHB was just gauging interest?

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Wait, what? The 1945-1950 maroon coaches are already available? I thought JHB was just gauging interest?

Just gauging interest! If they DO go ahead with this, it will be several years before they're ready. If they want more than one livery in a re-run, I've sent them GSWR, early GSR and late GSR. Late GSR (post-1933) would probably be the most popular.

This is GSR livery as seen after the early 1930s....

[jhb171achill]

Here’s another. Lighting shows it more accurately here - looks a bit brownish in the first shot.

This is of course one of Cyril Fry’s models, a Bredin coach.

 

[DiveController]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Here’s another. Lighting shows it more accurately here - looks a bit brownish in the first shot.

This is of course one of Cyril Fry’s models, a Bredin coach.

 

OK, OK,.... despite my earlier post regarding the lack of motive power for this era, I had forgotten how good the coaching stock from GSR look and yes I would obviously buy a rake or two if they were available. 

I'll be honest though, I'd be happier if IRM had taken a stab at these rather than Hattons.

So the expectation would be a rake of various 4 and 6 wheel bogies sufficient to make the Cork-Rosslare Boat Train. I have a red-lined Black loco that has been sitting idle for a decade 

Actually Hattons could throw in a Pullman while they're at it 

Edited November 14, 2023 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, DiveController said:

 

Actually Hattons could throw in a Pullman while they're at it 

Now THERE’s an idea!

[TimO]

@jhb171achill a little away from the core of this thread. How did the Bredins differ from later GSR wooden bogie coaches and early CIE wooden bogie coaches, ie before laminates and Park Royal’s?
 

Did they use similar chassis and bogies?

 

[jhb171achill]

22 minutes ago, TimO said:

@jhb171achill a little away from the core of this thread. How did the Bredins differ from later GSR wooden bogie coaches and early CIE wooden bogie coaches, ie before laminates and Park Royal’s?
 

Did they use similar chassis and bogies?

 

The GSR-built stock were all several varieties of “Bredins”, with two distinct side profiles, the earlier ones being straighter sides. There was nothing built in the 1940s, so the 800s and so on were hauling trains of “modern” Bredins plus older wooden stock (of low and high roof types, plus an occasional clerestorey, and even the odd six-wheeled full brake).

The CIE stock built in 1951-3 was broadly similar to the Bredins, but solid timber frames rather than laminated.

Then came the Park Royals in 1955/6, followed by the ACTUAL laminates, in their several batches and configurations, and the 24XX series dining cars.

All of the above bar the Park Royals bore the same overall family resemblance to the Bredins.

Later, many of the 1951-3 wooden-framed vehicles were rebuilt, for example as BSGSVs. Even among enthusiasts, everything of that era tends also to be referred to generically as “laminates”, even though the framework of the bodies was solid timber rather than laminated; but of course you can’t tell that externally!

I’ll post a few pics later of different types.

[TimO]

@jhb171achill Thank you. Did this wide variety of Bredins and CIE 1951-53 stock run on basically the same chassis and bogies?  Designed and built in Inchicore?

Were the true laminates on the same chassis?

I’m looking forward to your photos. Plenty of scope for new IRM models here.

[Mayner]

There was a lot of detail variation among early CIE coaching stock, 1st batch Coaches were 60' long on GSR bogies and welded version of the GSR underframe, length increased to 61'6" for second and subsequent batches of coaches, Bullied triangulated underframe under coaches introduced 54-55.

1954 Side Corridor Standard Bulleid underframe and Commonwealth Bogies GSRPS Tralee 1992-3

1463 "Laminate" 1958 Open Standard Mullingar 1983 Laminate (Aluminium-insulation-ply panels) body re-skinned with aluminium on timber framing late 1980s.

The main spotting difference between the 51-53/5 stock and the Laminates was the shape of the toilet windows and the end profile. The toilet compartments on some Bredin and 51-53 stock were placed at the centre rather than the end of the carriages.

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, TimO said:

@jhb171achill Thank you. Did this wide variety of Bredins and CIE 1951-53 stock run on basically the same chassis and bogies?  Designed and built in Inchicore?

Were the true laminates on the same chassis?

I’m looking forward to your photos. Plenty of scope for new IRM models here.

There were differences in chassis and bogies, yes. Mayner’s post above pretty much summarises it, but when I post a few pics that should help too. The earlier (up to 1953) CIE stock had basically the same type of chassis and bogies as Bredins; later ones had bogies more like those in Park Royals. The chassis looked different too, though I would not be well up on the actual specification.

[exciecoachbuilder]

On 16/11/2023 at 1:52 AM, Mayner said:

There was a lot of detail variation among early CIE coaching stock, 1st batch Coaches were 60' long on GSR bogies and welded version of the GSR underframe, length increased to 61'6" for second and subsequent batches of coaches, Bullied triangulated underframe under coaches introduced 54-55.

1954 Side Corridor Standard Bulleid underframe and Commonwealth Bogies GSRPS Tralee 1992-3

1463 "Laminate" 1958 Open Standard Mullingar 1983 Laminate (Aluminium-insulation-ply panels) body re-skinned with aluminium on timber framing late 1980s.

The main spotting difference between the 51-53/5 stock and the Laminates was the shape of the toilet windows and the end profile. The toilet compartments on some Bredin and 51-53 stock were placed at the centre rather than the end of the carriages.

 

 

 

It was actually the late 1970's that the "rebuild's" we're done.  Paul.

[DiveController]

On 15/11/2023 at 1:10 PM, TimO said:

@jhb171achill Thank you. Did this wide variety of Bredins and CIE 1951-53 stock run on basically the same chassis and bogies?  Designed and built in Inchicore?

Were the true laminates on the same chassis?

I’m looking forward to your photos. Plenty of scope for new IRM models here.

The earlier GSR bogie stock mostly had 57’ under frames on compartment and clerestory coaches except for a few unique coaches on the Rosslare boat train with 60’ and 66’ frames. Later coach production switched to 60’ which persisted into only a few early CIE era coaches after which 61’6 became the standard length for decades to follow. I’m a long way from any of my references books and  I’ll try to post more detail when I can, but the vast majority of CIE coaching stock after c1953, PRs and laminates to follow were all on the Inchicore built 61’6” chassis 

[jhb171achill]

Correct. There were chassis design differences too, though I’m not fully aware of the technical details.

The Rosslare stuff was, of course, long pre-GSR.

[jhb171achill]

Back to the Hattons 6-wheelers.

Lately, it's been asked / discussed on this forum, who models the DNGR.

As possibly expected, despite Greenore's absolutely perfect setting for a medium sixed dockside terminal, the answer is few if any. With those thoughts in the back of my head, while researching something unrelated in the last few days I came across a picture of an older type of DNGR six-wheeler which unlike their normal design, which was pure LNWR, this one was more akin to the "generic" Hattons type, i.e. GSWR-esque in proportion and appearance.

This, of course, lays open the possibility that since Hattons already do LNWR liveried models of these, it would barely be necessary to do a new run of them. So, behold, an EXISTING ready-to run rake of DNGR coaches!

But take the six-wheelers, not the four wheelers; while the LNWR had these, the DNGR didn't.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

So, a DNGR layout: a pile of Provincial and other wagons, lots of goods vans and cattle trucks, not so much other types, GNR brake vans, the above coaches and you're just leftr with locos.

SSM GNR 2.4.2T kit, and perhaps for passing the three fut rule, some sort of 0.6.0ST painted black. An 00 Works 0.6.0 GN UG - if possible to get - would do well also.

DNGR job done!

[DJ Dangerous]

On 22/11/2023 at 5:24 PM, jhb171achill said:

Back to the Hattons 6-wheelers.

Lately, it's been asked / discussed on this forum, who models the DNGR.

As possibly expected, despite Greenore's absolutely perfect setting for a medium sixed dockside terminal, the answer is few if any. With those thoughts in the back of my head, while researching something unrelated in the last few days I came across a picture of an older type of DNGR six-wheeler which unlike their normal design, which was pure LNWR, this one was more akin to the "generic" Hattons type, i.e. GSWR-esque in proportion and appearance.

This, of course, lays open the possibility that since Hattons already do LNWR liveried models of these, it would barely be necessary to do a new run of them. So, behold, an EXISTING ready-to run rake of DNGR coaches!

But take the six-wheelers, not the four wheelers; while the LNWR had these, the DNGR didn't.

 

 

Speaking of...

Hornby LNWR vs. Hatton's SE&CR Genesis coach.

First impressions, the Hornby body fidelity and the printing is not quite as good as the Hatton's Genesis range, the couplings and buffers droop a little, and I'm not a fan of the battery powered lighting.

Overall, the Hatton's Genesis are definitely a superior range, and very competitively priced.

Still, for €20 odd on Black Friday, the Hornby yoke was worth it.

 

 

[leslie10646]

Yeah, not a patch on them ......  ?????

There are significant differences in the paint job, but I'm not a LNWR expert to comment. You'll need to double click my image to see it at a decent size!

Can't comment on the batteries, as mine are unlit, they're kept in the Portadown sidings for AOH and GAA specials.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by leslie10646

[Westcorkrailway]

3 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Speaking of...

Hornby LNWR vs. Hatton's SE&CR Genesis coach.

First impressions, the Hornby body fidelity and the printing is not quite as good as the Hatton's Genesis range, the couplings and buffers droop a little, and I'm not a fan of the battery powered lighting.

Overall, the Hatton's Genesis are definitely a superior range, and very competitively priced.

Still, for €20 odd on Black Friday, the Hornby yoke was worth it.

 

 

20 quid for 6 wheelers sounds like a perfect excuse to come to make CBSCR short bogey coaches.  

[jhb171achill]

On 15/12/2023 at 10:42 AM, leslie10646 said:

Yeah, not a patch on them ......  ?????

There are significant differences in the paint job, but I'm not a LNWR expert to comment. You'll need to double click my image to see it at a decent size!

Can't comment on the batteries, as mine are unlit, they're kept in the Portadown sidings for AOH and GAA specials.

 

Good thinking! jhbSenior took a photo of a long rake of DNGR 6-wheelers at Scarva in, I believe, 1944…

[jhb171achill]

….and, in a similar vein, when the GNR took over the day to day running of the DNGR in the 1930s, their stock started appearing on the DNGR, which displaced a lot of older DNGR stock. The NCC bought some carriages, and these were used primarily on the Larne line locals as far as I can gather. Senior recalled seeing a coach in DNGR livery on a Carrickfergus or Larne local, I would guess in the late 1930s.

[Murph]

WOW !!!!   Gotta get a rake of them

[DJ Dangerous]

On 21/12/2023 at 1:53 PM, Murph said:

WOW !!!!   Gotta get a rake of them

 

A rake of OO Gauge coaches for your N Gauge layout?

To all who may be interested, as of right now, the following four Genesis coaches are the only ones still available to pre-order.

Even though the images says that they're sold out, they ARE available to pre-order, at this moment.

All the rest are showing as unavailable.

1. https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056107/hattons_originals_h4_6bs_1702a_6_wheel_brake_2nd_100_in_cie_light_green/stockdetail

2. https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056108/hattons_originals_h4_6bs_1702b_6_wheel_brake_2nd_101_in_cie_light_green/stockdetail

3. https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056100/hattons_originals_h4_6bt_1701a_6_wheel_brake_3rd_102_in_cie_dark_green/stockdetail

4. https://www.hattons.co.uk/1056101/hattons_originals_h4_6bt_1701b_6_wheel_brake_3rd_90_in_cie_dark_green/stockdetail

Enjoy!

[DJ Dangerous]

As of half eleven this morning, all four of the aforementioned coaches are still available to pre-order.

[Metrovik]

Excuse my question but I'm a little late to the party on this, would these coaches be out of place behind the early livery 121 class? Having shockingly bought something new for a change I need to stretch out the use of these as much as I can.....

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Metrovik said:

Excuse my question but I'm a little late to the party on this, would these coaches be out of place behind the early livery 121 class? Having shockingly bought something new for a change I need to stretch out the use of these as much as I can.....

Yeah as far as I know it was certainly possible for the grey 121 to do such a thing but it would have been quite a rare occurrence if it did happen. 
 

Worth pointing out the above is only relevent to the light green/black n tan coaches. I reckon there was very little to no chance a 121 ever had an excuse to haul around a livery that was almost extinct by the time of there introduction 

Edited January 14 by Westcorkrailway