We Got A Flat - Announcing the Bulleid LB and PWD Flat Wagons

[murphaph]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

You wouldn't have got GNR ones down in Cork........

I wonder did any of the Ford cars get shipped over the border by rail at all. This whole area is quite fascinating and this traffic didn't exist in later eras, so anyone wanting to model a train load of cars needs to be looking at the 60s and earlier it seems. Might encourage more folks to model the era!

[jhb171achill]

46 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I wonder did any of the Ford cars get shipped over the border by rail at all. This whole area is quite fascinating and this traffic didn't exist in later eras, so anyone wanting to model a train load of cars needs to be looking at the 60s and earlier it seems. Might encourage more folks to model the era!

I have a notion that all Fords sold in the north were shipped in from Britain. Senior used to drive Fords in the 50s and 60s, when living in the north, and they all came from Dagenham. Only exception was a Ford Prefect - but he bought that in Dublin in 1951 as he was living there then.

[Galteemore]

Quite possibly, dependent upon tariff deals at the time. Post WW2, Morris motors built a sub-plant in Dublin to re-assemble CKD Minors. CKD stood for ‘completely knocked down’. Each car basically arrived from GB as a kit and was reassembled in Eire. This got around the tariff on importing brand new - assembled - cars. Cross-border export would have varied, I suspect, as to how high tariffs were. Late 1930s were the worst I think for imposed duties. 

[Westcorkrailway]

I heard from somwhwre that Ford in cork provided the police in the north (RUC) with there cars. They came across the border in a tarp or something. I can’t remember the details. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Westcorkrailway

[Mayner]

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

I wonder did any of the Ford cars get shipped over the border by rail at all. This whole area is quite fascinating and this traffic didn't exist in later eras, so anyone wanting to model a train load of cars needs to be looking at the 60s and earlier it seems. Might encourage more folks to model the era!

Apart from movements from the Factory to Cork Goods, Cars are likely to have been moved as individual wagon loads or small cuts of wagons in mixed goods trains rather than moving cars in train loads.  

Wagons in loose coupled goods trains were usually marshalled in station order to simplify shunting en-route.  A goods leaving Cork for Dublin would have wagons for Mallow (1st Stop) and the Kerry Road marshalled next to the loco, followed by wagons for Charleville 2nd stop and so-forth.

Up to the 80s there were assembly plants for the major marques in the Republic Dublin had Leyland/BMC (Austin, Morris, Wolsley) General Motors, VW, Toyota and Nissan, and Wexford had a Renault plant.  So potential car, light commerical and farm machinery on goods trains from Dublin and Wexford.

Its likely new car traffic ceased by the early 70s remember seeing double deck car transporters with "Blue Dragon" branding during the late 60s

The BMC/Austin 1800 in the photo of LB23318 is likely to have started its journey on a mixed goods train out of Kingsbridge Goods

Looking at Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE and NIR the LB flat wagons are not listed in the 1979 edition, while the PW Flats (1973-4 H van conversions) are classed as Ballast Wagons

The 1987 edition indicates that the 1973-4) PW Flats and some GSWR Dropside Ballast Wagons were still on the books but whether they were actually in use is open to question.  I saw several PW Flats (cut down H Vans)waiting scrapping at Mullingar in 1993, CIE tended to redundant 20T Vac braked Flat wagons dating from the mid-1960s for P.W use from the late 70s (Hiab, Sleeper, spoil skips). Nice photo of a 20T Vac Brake flat loaded with sleepers a Lansdown Road (possibly DART works) in the 79 & 87 editions of L&RS of CIE & NIR

Edited December 9, 2023 by Mayner

[leslie10646]

14 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Another GSR Era photograph. This one from 1929 (see the much older cars) on the wagons on the left)

I have pre-ordered 3 flat wagons I hope to mix in some other 4w flats such as 2 generic CIE flats made from British ones and maybe one of the GNR ones Leslie had if they can be found.

Nice piece of social history, WCR.

Now, I wonder what the three guys with the open newspaper are reading so avidly. Looks like the back pages, so maybe the Gee-Gee results?

[Ironroad]

For those that might be interested, there was some discussion previously on the topic of cars being carried in flat wagons, refer to the thread Ernies Massive 1930's to 2005 Photo Archive, Apr 6 & 7 2021.

26 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Nice piece of social history, WCR.

Now, I wonder what the three guys with the open newspaper are reading so avidly. Looks like the back pages, so maybe the Gee-Gee results?

I was thinking the same thing, you beat me to it. A classic scene.

[Westcorkrailway]

13 hours ago, murphaph said:

 Might encourage more folks to model the era!

Myself and scahalane have probobly sold a few of these IRM wagons at the mere mention of the Ford train!

24 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Ernies Massive 1930's to 2005 Photo Archive, Apr 6 & 7 2021.

 

Roughly page 17 for those who want to investigate themselves. It includes an S class shunting around cars and the fords train in Albert quay. Among other goodies 

 

[leslie10646]

16 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Myself and scahalane have probobly sold a few of these IRM wagons at the mere mention of the Ford train!

Roughly page 17 for those who want to investigate themselves. It includes an S class shunting around cars and the fords train in Albert quay. Among other goodies 

 

The wagons are now probably out by now. Does someone make that era Ford Anglia in 4mm?

Yes, it IS Page 17 - an E Class by the way (easy mis-type).

[Galteemore]

19 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

The wagons are now probably out by now. Does someone make that era Ford Anglia in 4mm?

Yes, it IS Page 17 - an E Class by the way (easy mis-type).

Leslie - I thought so too but it is actually an S class shunting cars at Strabane! 

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

42 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

The wagons are now probably out by now. Does someone make that era Ford Anglia in 4mm?

Yes, it IS Page 17 - an E Class by the way (easy mis-type).

I have an Anglia van so I presume the car is available from Oxford diecast.

[murphaph]

13 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Quite possibly, dependent upon tariff deals at the time. Post WW2, Morris motors built a sub-plant in Dublin to re-assemble CKD Minors. CKD stood for ‘completely knocked down’. Each car basically arrived from GB as a kit and was reassembled in Eire. This got around the tariff on importing brand new - assembled - cars. Cross-border export would have varied, I suspect, as to how high tariffs were. Late 1930s were the worst I think for imposed duties. 

This was Booth Poole I guess. My father's first "proper job" was there and he remained in the motor trade all his life.

[Galteemore]

2 minutes ago, murphaph said:

This was Booth Poole I guess. My father's first "proper job" was there and he remained in the motor trade all his life.

Could be. The main company name was GA Brittain in Portobello - I used to pass it when walking from Rathgar to Trinity

[murphaph]

According to this German wiki page, Booth Poole was taken over by Brittains in 1971:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booth_Poole_%26_Company

My father had left them by then to start his own business.

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

The wagons are now probably out by now. Does someone make that era Ford Anglia in 4mm?

In the Oxford website there is a few light blue anglias in 1:76. Marks models had olive green ones before. 

[WRENNEIRE]

I know a man......
Mk 1 2 door Cortina, 2 Anglia vans and saloon and a Zodiac
Would they have come from Cork?
Oxford diecast and a Corgi (in plastic)

[leslie10646]

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

The wagons are now probably out by now. Does someone make that era Ford Anglia in 4mm?

Yes, it IS Page 17 - an E Class by the way (easy mis-type).

Turns out, as Galteemore has observed,  that both E and S Class shunting cars on that page .....

Did they build the 1959 version in Cork? Or do we have to hunt down models of the 1953 - 1959 version.

Hold on, isn't this thread meant to about "Flats"?

Are they sold out yet, Lads?

[Ironroad]

Are these the pre ISO containers (from Parkside/Peco) that Fran has indicated were carried by these flat wagons?   If so were they private owner  or were any owned by CIE and in what liveries etc.?

In a thread titled Irish/CIE Coal Wagons, Mayner posted a picture (Aug 17 2020) of CIE open 5 plank wagons carrying British Leyland containers of this type dating from about 1970. So is it possible that British Rail owned containers of this type were also  seen on Irish Rails (as produced by Bachmann)?

    

Edited December 9, 2023 by Ironroad
typo

[Westcorkrailway]

4 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

The wagons are now probably out by now. Does someone make that era Ford Anglia in 4mm?

In the Oxford website there is a few light blue anglias in 1:76. Marks models had olive green ones before. 
 

escorts and cortina’s went across the city railway apparently, even after the west cork was closed. Only C class could venture down there though as the Victoria road curve was very sharp. The 141s could not do it….only done in case of overflow
 

Zodiacs, zephyr, consuls, Thames vans, anglia 100e and 105e would have ran there in the late 50s and early 60s

Edited December 9, 2023 by Westcorkrailway

[MOGUL]

15 hours ago, Mayner said:

Apart from movements from the Factory to Cork Goods, Cars are likely to have been moved as individual wagon loads or small cuts of wagons in mixed goods trains rather than moving cars in train loads.  

Wagons in loose coupled goods trains were usually marshalled in station order to simplify shunting en-route.  A goods leaving Cork for Dublin would have wagons for Mallow (1st Stop) and the Kerry Road marshalled next to the loco, followed by wagons for Charleville 2nd stop and so-forth.

Up to the 80s there were assembly plants for the major marques in the Republic Dublin had Leyland/BMC (Austin, Morris, Wolsley) General Motors, VW, Toyota and Nissan, and Wexford had a Renault plant.  So potential car, light commerical and farm machinery on goods trains from Dublin and Wexford.

Its likely new car traffic ceased by the early 70s remember seeing double deck car transporters with "Blue Dragon" branding during the late 60s

The BMC/Austin 1800 in the photo of LB23318 is likely to have started its journey on a mixed goods train out of Kingsbridge Goods

Looking at Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE and NIR the LB flat wagons are not listed in the 1979 edition, while the PW Flats (1973-4 H van conversions) are classed as Ballast Wagons

The 1987 edition indicates that the 1973-4) PW Flats and some GSWR Dropside Ballast Wagons were still on the books but whether they were actually in use is open to question.  I saw several PW Flats (cut down H Vans)waiting scrapping at Mullingar in 1993, CIE tended to redundant 20T Vac braked Flat wagons dating from the mid-1960s for P.W use from the late 70s (Hiab, Sleeper, spoil skips). Nice photo of a 20T Vac Brake flat loaded with sleepers a Lansdown Road (possibly DART works) in the 79 & 87 editions of L&RS of CIE & NIR

remember seeing double deck car transporters with "Blue Dragon" branding during the late 60s

Intriguing, tell us more please or even better pics of them!

Edited December 9, 2023 by MOGUL

[Mayner]

54 minutes ago, MOGUL said:

remember seeing double deck car transporters with "Blue Dragon" branding during the late 60s

Intriguing, tell us more please or even better pics of them!

No photos only a kid at the time probably 1st time I saw a car transporter lorry. Arrival of car transporters moving cars direct from the factory/importers to the dealers probably spelt the death knell of transporting cars by rail in Ireland. 

Originally registered in Cork to serve the motor industry closed 2015, appears to have expanded to the UK. https://www.tuugo.info/CompanyPictures/blue-dragon-transport/034000552183

 

 

[DiveController]

On 8/12/2023 at 3:37 PM, jhb171achill said:

You wouldn't have got GNR ones down in Cork........

Sure, you never know what would have been tacked onto the back of a Belfast-Cork Enterprise 

Edited December 10, 2023 by DiveController

[Westcorkrailway]

24 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Sure, you never know what would have been tacked onto the back of a Belfast-Cork Enterprise 

Well I’ve seen so much Ex-GNR stuff working the west cork line I thought the gnr flats were a genuine possibility!

[raymurph]

On 8/12/2023 at 8:27 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Another GSR Era photograph. This one from 1929 (see the much older cars) on the wagons on the left)

I have pre-ordered 3 flat wagons I hope to mix in some other 4w flats such as 2 generic CIE flats made from British ones and maybe one of the GNR ones Leslie had if they can be found.

Lovely photo. If you gave anyone of those fellas a push they might start.

[patrick]

 It seems that there was no shortage of auto traffic on the Midland in the mid sixties.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

50 minutes ago, patrick said:

 It seems that there was no shortage of auto traffic on the Midland in the mid sixties.

 

And not exclusivly fords either. 

[flange lubricator]

1 hour ago, patrick said:

 It seems that there was no shortage of auto traffic on the Midland in the mid sixties.

 

And no shortage of Oil and Grain either.

[Irishswissernie]

I'm not sure if these are Bulleid LB flats but a bit of variety on this CCR Trip, Tractor ,Van and car. No doubt the LB's would have seen the same variety.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Yes, I forgot. Tractors also were transported new from the factory. I presume it’s a Ford Supermajor. 

[Robert Shrives]

Ordered a 3 pack PW set just now - if a layout ever gets built they are likely to be siding fodder but good to show the chassis design.    I imagine as a flat useful as a barrier for overlength traffic  as well. I mugged one up based on the car photo as well. 

Viz the BR Conflat in Irish guise I would think they would sell as well. Another Dapol wagon project?

Robert   

[leslie10646]

30 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Ordered a 3 pack PW set just now - if a layout ever gets built they are likely to be siding fodder but good to show the chassis design.    I imagine as a flat useful as a barrier for overlength traffic  as well. I mugged one up based on the car photo as well. 

Viz the BR Conflat in Irish guise I would think they would sell as well. Another Dapol wagon project?

Robert   

Yes, giving that serious consideration, but it would be a GN one, I think. Thanks to the guys posting the flats on goods - few (well a few) seem to be triangulated chassis. Most appeared to be flats like that below my double beets - which I sell separately!!!!

The more photos I look at the more containers, and other goods on flats etc, I seem to discover.

I hope that the Lads have checked if the BR container will fit inside their wee corrugated - there are plenty of pics around of two half containers in those wagons ......

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

I'm not sure if these are Bulleid LB flats but a bit of variety on this CCR Trip, Tractor ,Van and car. No doubt the LB's would have seen the same variety.

 

 

A closer look at the flats in Ernies Cork City Train

The first two wagons are basically Midland and GSWR variants of an 'Irish Standard" flat wagon introduced during WW1. 

Apart from the running number the ratchet arrangement for holding down the handbrake level was a standard feature on Midland wagons.

In terms of numbers the 88 LB was fairly insignificant in terms of the actual number of flats in service on CIE the GSWR/ "Irish Standard" type would have predominated into the late 60s, CIE introduced approx. 500 steel floored 20'-20T Flat Wagons for general use and container traffic in the Mid-1960s, possibly leading to the demise of the LBs which were no longer 'on the books" by 1979

 

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

I'm not sure if these are Bulleid LB flats but a bit of variety on this CCR Trip, Tractor ,Van and car. No doubt the LB's would have seen the same variety.

 

I think those may be old MGWR carriage trucks, built for carting the horse carriages of the gentry about.

Edited December 10, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

I think those may be old MGWR carriage trucks, built for carting the horse carriages of the gentry about.

The ex-MGWR Flat is 2297m the final type of Timber Truck introduced by the Midland 2288-2302, originally "intended to carry sawn timber and long deals"

The Carriage Trucks were more complex in design fitted with Vacuum Brakes in order to run in passenger trains.

Pre-amalgamation Carriage Trucks lasted in service until the early 60s just about possible that cars were carried on Carriage Trucks in passenger trains in GSR/CIE days. There is a nice photo in Great Sputhern Railways An Irish Railway Pictorial"  of 321 with the 12:30 Kingsbridge-Cork in GSR days with a pair of Carriage Trucks coupled next to the loco, followed by a pair of Horseboxes a couple of  coaches and a long string of non-passenger coaching stock and vans.

SLNCR

Going back to the question of whether cars were transported on the SLNCR Page 2 of N W Spinks book features a delightful J J Smith picture of Sir Henry approaching Enniskillen on the 06:30 freight from Sligo Quay on 5th July 1957, a flat wagon carrying a car is coupled next to the coach for the 7:20pm mixed at the rear of the train (17 wagons +Coach+Brake Van). Difficult to identify the type or car or flat, but possibly a "Free to Free" movement from the 'south" through Northern Ireland to Donegal under customs bond.  Its possible that new cars from Cork to Donegal would have been routed over the Limerick-Sligo Line and the SLNCR to Enniskillen rather than through Dublin to maximise the GSR/CIE share of the 'line haul' from Cork to Donegal. The SLNCR basically survived as what the Americans call a 'Bridge Line" with the GNR offering lower freight rates than CIE for traffic from Dublin, Meath and Louth to Sligo, than the Midland route.

[jhb171achill]

10 minutes ago, Mayner said:

The ex-MGWR Flat is 2297m the final type of Timber Truck introduced by the Midland 2288-2302, originally "intended to carry sawn timber and long deals"

The Carriage Trucks were more complex in design fitted with Vacuum Brakes in order to run in passenger trains.

Pre-amalgamation Carriage Trucks lasted in service until the early 60s just about possible that cars were carried on Carriage Trucks in passenger trains in GSR/CIE days. There is a nice photo in Great Sputhern Railways An Irish Railway Pictorial"  of 321 with the 12:30 Kingsbridge-Cork in GSR days with a pair of Carriage Trucks coupled next to the loco, followed by a pair of Horseboxes a couple of  coaches and a long string of non-passenger coaching stock and vans.

 

That explains that then - not carriage trucks. Both those wagons are MGWR in John Edgington's photo - both have MGWR builder's plates - same type exactly, presumably.

Edited December 11, 2023 by jhb171achill