IRM Latest! The High Queens of Ireland - IRM Celebrates 10th Birthday With GSR 800s

[Niles]

I'm pretty certain I've seen pictures of a six wheeler stuffed between an 800 and bogie stock, so a head start for anyone with the Hattons stock.

And, as pointed out, Bulleid opens work for 801... 

[Mol_PMB]

At least one 6-wheeler in each of these:

JMR_GSR_802_Kingsbridge_l1940s | [Photographer: John Macartn… | Flickr

RNC_GSR_802_Limerick_Jct_22_May_1949 | [Photographer: Robin … | Flickr

GNR set in Cork:

DLGH_GSR_802_Glanmire_Rd_21_June_1951 | [Photographer: David… | Flickr

Pullman in this set?

RNC_GSR_801_Hazelhatch_4_May_1955 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr

Typical mix of panelled and flush bogie stock:

JoM_GSR_800_Straffan_m1950s (2) | [Photographer: John O'Mear… | Flickr

"I'm Spartacus 800!" 

KAM_GSR_GNR_800_801_Inchicore_08_July_1963 | [Photographer: … | Flickr

 

[Galteemore]

The old Airfix LMS period III coaches could help make up a passable rake for a late 30s 800 in GSR trim. If you are running it at scale express speeds they will certainly pass the 2’ rule. 

[Rush and Lusk]

Congratulations to IRM/Accurascale for a fantastic evening in Malahide - Fran, Paul, Paddy and the always riveting Jonathan. Great company, nice food and of course, super new models on display. 

Below we see A46 depart Malahide for Drogheda with a rake of H Vans meeting the wonderful GSR 800 crossing the estuary towards Dublin. This is followed by the lovely Hunslet hauling some cement wagons.

Regards,

George  

 

[skinner75]

Not my era (thankfully, says my wallet!), but sure looks the part!

[Mol_PMB]

17 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

The old Airfix LMS period III coaches could help make up a passable rake for a late 30s 800 in GSR trim. If you are running it at scale express speeds they will certainly pass the 2’ rule. 

Not far off - for comparison this is a former GSR carriage which was preserved by the RPSI in GSR livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

 

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

In response to your post I have had a look at the photos of these. They are remarkably complex and the frame and axlebox arrangement is very unusual, which would be a challenge in most scales. Although the main frames are plate frames the full height of the loco, the axleboxes are mounted in a separate set of bar frames which may form part of the suspension. The locos are also tiny. What scale/gauge combination were you thinking of? The prototype was 1'10" gauge and because of the position of the wheels immediately inside the frames and the transmission arrangement with vertical rods you couldn't use a track gauge wider than prototype without affecting the whole shape of the loco. 7mm scale on 12mm track? In that scale it ought to be 12.83mm but 12mm is an established gauge and would allow slightly broader wheel tyres.

Or you could have something a bit bigger:

Guinness loco G3

I've seen the G3 version.

I have a set of drawings!! I'm in, if you're in!

1'10" gauge in 4mm scale translates to about 7.9mm! For the sheer madness of replicating it, I think it should be designed for this - 2mmFS disc wheels could be used as being nearly correct width.

Drivetrain: there's some terrifically small bevel and spur gears (MOD 0.2 and 0.3) available from Germany which are used in 1:87 DC/RC road vehicles.

The track itself could be cut-down OO9 to start with - the paved-in track used for tram systems looks eminently suitable.

[Weshty]

46 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Not far off - for comparison this is a former GSR carriage which was preserved by the RPSI in GSR livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

 

I have the transfers / decals for the GSR ...so if interested!

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

interesting cause in the diagrams of the CIE livery that we have on the website. The lining appears yellow on CIE liveries 

It does, but I’m sure it’ll be white….!

[Westcorkrailway]

4 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

It does, but I’m sure it’ll be white….!

Probobly just a case of it would look stange in a livery diagram like that if the lining was white!

[murphaph]

13 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I'm no expert on these locos, I'm just looking at photos:

Thurles 1961, no snail:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53453950801/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468545416/

Inchicore 1963, no snail:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505733957

Amiens St 1964, no snail:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251716485

 

Much appreciated. I wonder would this 800 in late CIE dark green livery + no snail not be perhaps the most popular option of it were available? It's the era with the most overlap with the diesel age and the available Murphy Models 121s and even 141s as well as the IRM A's. A lot of people will be modelling that early 60s era I think. I know I am modelling it precisely for the ability to mix steam with EMD diesels.

[Westcorkrailway]

Snail or no snail. 800/801 will look perfect besides Black and Tan 141s, sulzers and such. Will look even better next to a silver A class

[jhb171achill]

46 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Much appreciated. I wonder would this 800 in late CIE dark green livery + no snail not be perhaps the most popular option of it were available? It's the era with the most overlap with the diesel age and the available Murphy Models 121s and even 141s as well as the IRM A's. A lot of people will be modelling that early 60s era I think. I know I am modelling it precisely for the ability to mix steam with EMD diesels.

Strictly speaking, if it's in the no-snail or Cultra livery, it will only be (a) sittinmg in a siding in Thurles, or (b) sitting in a museum! While in traffic, all three had snails in CIE times.

As to the "dark" green, all CIE steam locosmotives which were painted green always had the dark version. So did buses, so did lorries. The post-1955 lighter shade was ONLY applied to coaching stock, railcars and diesel locomotives. And a note on that - when the railcars were introduced, dark green was the livery, so any future AEC model would need to have a dark green option plus a light green option. G601, E401, B101, A & C class diesels, and many carriages and tin vans, were silver when new, but by 1957 were being repainted the lighter green.

Since CIE only inherited the rump end of the GNR in late 1958, all CIE repaints of GNR carriages were the lighter green, never the darker. Many actually weren'ty repainted until after black'n'tan came in.

Now; all good rules have good exceptions.

While the above is the general rule, in the early 1950s - before the light green livery appeared at all - 802 was repainted in a lighter shade, evidently not unlike the light shade introduced after 1955. A new batch of coaches of the 1951-3 style (CIE's versions of "Bredins", basically) also appeared in this livery, and unlined. It was not deemed to be successful and repaints into standard gark green of the day followed pretty quickly.

Thus, in terms of actual running, 800 had two variations (GSR green, CIE green). 801 had two at least, plus a possible third. While she carried the same two liveries, at some stage her number and nameplates received a red background instead of blue. I do not know whether the red appeared before or after, or at the same time as, the livery change.

802 had original GSR livery, then the experimental colour with red plates, then standard CIE green with red plates. Tender markings on all three always had either the GSR crest or the CIE symbol.

[minister_for_hardship]

11 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Strictly speaking, if it's in the no-snail or Cultra livery, it will only be (a) sittinmg in a siding in Thurles, or (b) sitting in a museum! While in traffic, all three had snails in CIE times.

As to the "dark" green, all CIE steam locosmotives which were painted green always had the dark version. So did buses, so did lorries. The post-1955 lighter shade was ONLY applied to coaching stock, railcars and diesel locomotives. And a note on that - when the railcars were introduced, dark green was the livery, so any future AEC model would need to have a dark green option plus a light green option. G601, E401, B101, A & C class diesels, and many carriages and tin vans, were silver when new, but by 1957 were being repainted the lighter green.

Since CIE only inherited the rump end of the GNR in late 1958, all CIE repaints of GNR carriages were the lighter green, never the darker. Many actually weren'ty repainted until after black'n'tan came in.

Now; all good rules have good exceptions.

While the above is the general rule, in the early 1950s - before the light green livery appeared at all - 802 was repainted in a lighter shade, evidently not unlike the light shade introduced after 1955. A new batch of coaches of the 1951-3 style (CIE's versions of "Bredins", basically) also appeared in this livery, and unlined. It was not deemed to be successful and repaints into standard gark green of the day followed pretty quickly.

Thus, in terms of actual running, 800 had two variations (GSR green, CIE green). 801 had two at least, plus a possible third. While she carried the same two liveries, at some stage her number and nameplates received a red background instead of blue. I do not know whether the red appeared before or after, or at the same time as, the livery change.

802 had original GSR livery, then the experimental colour with red plates, then standard CIE green with red plates. Tender markings on all three always had either the GSR crest or the CIE symbol.

Or (c) being dragged dead somewhere!

[murphaph]

Ah so it sat in Thurles from 61 to 63? When was 800 last in steam? I'm likely going to order the dark green FS version as it's the closest to my desired era by the looks of it. As it almost certainly can't be regauged to 21mm without major alteration I will probably use it as an "ornament" on the layout some day, parked up on that proverbial siding in Inchicore. I want to buy one more as a way of supporting the project even if I can't run it.

[Horsetan]

8 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Ah so it sat in Thurles from 61 to 63? When was 800 last in steam? ...

As far as I understand it, it had been out of use from 1960 onwards.

802 had been cut up as early as 1957, since her tender was still in existence at that time and Bulleid had considered using it for his Turf Burner experiments.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Niles said:

I'm pretty certain I've seen pictures of a six wheeler stuffed between an 800 and bogie stock, so a head start for anyone with the Hattons stock.

And, as pointed out, Bulleid opens work for 801... 

Yes, you have. main line Cork trains at that time were an absolute mixture of just about anything. Look at just about any picture of an 800 - or, for that matter, a 400, a Woolwich or anything else - on the Cork line and you'll be hard put to find any image which shows a train with more than one vehicle of the exact same type. Certainly, a uniform rake of identical carriages, like nowadays as standard, on ANY line in Ireland much before 1970 was rare to never.

[Colin_McLeod]

Which one, which one??

Spoilt for choice.

Edited 20 hours ago by Colin_McLeod

[Galteemore]

19 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

As far as I understand it, it had been out of use from 1960 onwards.

802 had been cut up as early as 1957, since her tender was still in existence at that time and Bulleid had considered using it for his Turf Burner experiments.

800 was last in steam in 1958. 801 was retubed to work a tour in 1961.

[Colin_McLeod]

Happy Birthday  IRM and what a great looking model.

Number 800 pre ordered with Flying Snail and sound.

[GSWR 90]

3 hours ago, Horsetan said:

I've seen the G3 version.

I have a set of drawings!! I'm in, if you're in!

1'10" gauge in 4mm scale translates to about 7.9mm! For the sheer madness of replicating it, I think it should be designed for this - 2mmFS disc wheels could be used as being nearly correct width.

Drivetrain: there's some terrifically small bevel and spur gears (MOD 0.2 and 0.3) available from Germany which are used in 1:87 DC/RC road vehicles.

The track itself could be cut-down OO9 to start with - the paved-in track used for tram systems looks eminently suitable.

Or they could be made OO scale if you combine them with the 5’3” converter wagons

Edited 19 hours ago by GSWR 90

[Horsetan]

2 minutes ago, GSWR 90 said:

Or they could be made OO scale if you combine them with the 5’3” converter wagons

That's an idea! A converter wagon etch as well!

[Patrick Davey]

I've always wanted to build a model of Cultra - no excuse now for not getting started! 

[Andy Cundick]

Saved again wrong gauge and i already have Tailte built and Macha as a rolling chassis not the best choice for either Valencia or Courtmacsherry.Andy

[Northroader]

[ttc0169]

Congratulations to IRM on their 10th birthday,

Well done on your choice of locomotive -sound fitted 800 has been ordered

[Niles]

23 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

As yet, I haven't found a photo of an 800 hauling a Park Royal, but I'm sure it happened.

I would say it's at least possible in the case of 801 and maybe 800.

802 was withdrawn in 1957 so less likely though marginally possible. (Open to correction but I think the first Park Royals in service were on the Dublin suburban which 802 most certainly would not have appeared on ).

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Niles

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Patrick Davey said:

I've always wanted to build a model of Cultra - no excuse now for not getting started! 

Best thing about Cultra is none of the exhibits run, so you can dispense with the need for motors and gears 

[Galteemore]

2 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Best thing about Cultra is none of the exhibits run, so you can dispense with the need for motors and gears 

You don’t even need to get obsessive about accurate livery 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

You don’t even need to get obsessive about accurate livery 

And it's a proper 'Rule 1' collection - a whole host of different gauges, eras and regions of Ireland. 

Though if I had to pick a bit of the collection to model it might be the DeLorean overtaking the Bessbrook & Newry tramcar...

(Are they still near each other and separate from the main railway hall? It's been a long time since I visited)

[Patrick Davey]

1 hour ago, Horsetan said:

Best thing about Cultra is none of the exhibits run, so you can dispense with the need for motors and gears 

But there's audio playing in the gallery, so sound chips needed.

[LNERW1]

The announcement video brought me here- the EPs look stunning and I have no reason to doubt that the finished models will be just as brilliant. 350 euro well spent anyway, if I do end up getting one. Best of luck with this one lads, not that you'll need it.

[Colin R]

There goes a bit more of the pension pot

[Mayner]

There are several photos of 800s hauling main line passenger trains between 1946-55 in the  book "Classic Irish Steam"  Archives of the Irish Railway Record Society  published by the IRRS 2020.

(a) 801 Macha re-starting 11:25 Cork-Dublin train from an unscheduled stop at Hazlehatch. The caption notes "By the close of 1955 No801 & her two sisters of the 800 Class would be displaced from the principal services on the Dublin-Cork main line by the CIE A Class Metrovick diesels.

The 8 coach train appears to be lead by a pair of pre-Amalgamation bogie break vans of different design (possibly ex-GSWR), a pair of early 1950s Inchacore built side corridor coaches, the remainder of the train appears to be made up of a mixture of older stock of a number of different designs.

(b) 802 Tailte passing Straffan at speed on Dublin-Cork excursion train Sunday 22 April 1951. Train appears to be made up of a mixture of ex-GSWR & Bredin stock, 1st coach appears to be a GSWR 6w full break, 2nd coach arc roofed ex GSWR corridor coach, 3rd GSWR Clerestory coach, followed by Bredin stock with elliptical roof profile.

(c) 802 Tailte again 3/4 front view passing Straffan at speed on the 12:00 Cork-Dublin Sunday 25 July 1948, 1st Coach 6w possibly luggage van (no projecting guards duckets) 2nd coach Bredin profile possibly Full Brake, remaining coaches likely to be early GSR/late GSWR design.

(d) The really interesting one. 800 Maedbh taking water at Ballybrophy Sunday 6 November 1949 on the Dublin-Cork "Centenial Express"  1st coach appears to be an ex MGWR 6w Full brake elliptical roof and style of pannelling, the two visible coaches in the train appear to be early 1900s GSWR corridor stock.

(e) 800 Maedbh undated photo entering Amiens St with a GNR rake (7-8) with the Cork-Dublin section of the Enterprise. The train ran October 1950-September 1953 (Once daily in each direction)

[Colin R]

It just occurred to me that I should have asked if the Queens will convert to 21mm Gauge?