Irish Rail Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Evening guys, What type of wood do you use a base? I'm thinking 8'4 as next part of my layout.. I remember sundela use to be popular in the UK years ago.. Cheers MJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 burnthebox Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Hi IR, if it's the baseboard you're talking about, you've only just beaten me to that question, as I'm about, at last to start planning my layout. I'm very sure someone will be along soon with all the answers as to the various types available. I think there's a fairly good variety available now, not like when the choice was planks, or planks, !! best of luck anyway, & don't forget the photo's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Broithe Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Some chat about foam boards here - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/4587-PVC-foamcore-baseboards?highlight=baseboards . A lot can depend upon whether it's a permanent structure, or not.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BosKonay Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Chat to Dave from Model rail baseboards on here. I'm only sorry I built my first section from timber and ply before meeting him! http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/forumdisplay.php/44-modelrailbaseboards-com Edited June 4, 2015 by BosKonay Added Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Irish Rail Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 Thanks folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Junctionmad Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 The simplest is braced plywood. I've see a lot of MDF and it has pros and cons. Stay away from sundela type stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 burnthebox Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 The simplest is braced plywood. I've see a lot of MDF and it has pros and cons. Stay away from sundela type stuff. Pardon me sir's but what's "braced plywood " as I'll be needing this kind of info at this time as I'm now in the planning stage of my layout !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 UP6936 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 It is a plywood surface which is braced underneath with cross members Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Broithe Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 It is a plywood surface which is braced underneath with cross members This sort of thing, with a plywood sheet on top. The amount of bracing required depends upon the thickness of the top sheet. The holes aren't strictly necessary, but reduce the weight slightly and can be handy to pass wiring through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Noel Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 22 years ago when I constructed the boards for 'old new layout' (ie kingsbridge), I used 9mm ply screwed and glued on to a lattice timber frames made up of of 3x1" edges and 2x1" cross members. Easy to cut, drill and especially friendly for track pins (see layouts forum). Now materials have moved on since then. I tried the sort MDF that was available 22 years ago, but it was a nitemare to get it to take track pins, far too hard. However I understand there are now softer grades of MDF available that are stable yet accept track pins. Had such been available then I might have tried it. But happy with the ply setup which seems to have stood the test of time so far. Our layout has three split levels so some base boards sections were not straight forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Irish Rail Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 Good info thanks lads.. I used MDF with cork flooring as a top for the track on the port section seems to have been a good choice.. just wa ted to check in case anything new had come on the market Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dhu Varren Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Braced plywood is the way to go for a basic baseboard. Sundeala is not good on it's own for baseboard tops, as it tends to sag in the long term, even if braced. However plywood on it's own is not ideal, as although it will take track 'nails' as sold by Hornby, it will not take the finer track 'pins', as sold by Peco, and can be noisy, especially if ballasting the track with glue down ballast. I have always used the braced plywood method, but where track is going to be laid, I put down insulation softboard or sundeala either nailed or screwed to the plywood, and covered with a layer of 2 - 3mm of cork, either from sheets supplied by model shops, or cork tiles from DIY shops which tend to be cheaper. The cork is glued down with PVA wood glue, and provides, together with the softboard/sundeala, a sound deadening surface which takes, and holds, track 'pins' easily. The scenic parts of the baseboard can be left as the plain plywood top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Broithe Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 There certainly seems to be a general feeling against Sundeala amongst current modellers, some of the pro-Sundeala camp may be as a result of using it many years ago - the modern stuff seems to be quite different from how it was twenty/thirty years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Blaine Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 There certainly seems to be a general feeling against Sundeala amongst current modellers, some of the pro-Sundeala camp may be as a result of using it many years ago - the modern stuff seems to be quite different from how it was twenty/thirty years ago. Dont forget too, Sundeala was hard to get outside of the UK for a long time, a lot of books/magazines swore by the stuff and yet when you went to get it in Ireland it was unavailable. It depends on if the layout is to be portable or not, personally marine ply would be my preference for a portable layout as the main element Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mayner Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) "Sundeala" is a trade name for softboard or woodfibre insulation board it may be sold under a different trade name in Ireland. I used it on top of chipboard or mdf on open and solid top baseboards in N gauge, and it worked very well with Peco flexible track, could push in the Peco track pins with a small pliers and resulted in extremely quiet reliable running. For framing I have used everything from traditional 2X1" softwood to braced ply. Ply is probably one of the better options as softwood tends to be more expensive and the poorer grades tend to warp and twist. Edited June 4, 2015 by Mayner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dunluce Castle Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Chipboard top for us, haven't had any problems with it so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Broithe Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 The modern Sundeala K board is made from waste paper. My memory of the older stuff suggests that it had much longer wood fibres in it. http://www.sundeala.co.uk/sundealak/ I did do a chipboard layout in a covered external situation - car-port - and we had no issues with is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kinvara-Train Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Ply-Wood only no Paper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kinvara-Train Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 This sort of thing, with a plywood sheet on top. [ATTACH=CONFIG]19179[/ATTACH] The amount of bracing required depends upon the thickness of the top sheet. The holes aren't strictly necessary, but reduce the weight slightly and can be handy to pass wiring through. The Best:banana: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dave Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 As a cabinet maker first and foremost, I would not use Sundeala, it is very unstable and needs a lot of support it was originally designed to be bonded to a more stable substrate like plywood. The problem with plywood is quality, most of the plywood that is imported into Ireland is from the far east and is full of voids and is not properly laminated. It can and does de-laminate and collapse when you try to put a screw through it. Even marine ply is not proper marine ply any more. To use a decent plywood you would have to use Birch ply which is 5 times the cost of normal ply. When I started to design my first commercial baseboard I tried ply and Birch ply, the Birch ply was brilliant but commercially too expensive and the end cost of the baseboard was too high. That's why I use MDF, not the crap that you get in B&Q. I use Medite Premier MDF, it is very high quality and is incredibly stable because there is no grain it doesn't suffer from expansion and contraction the other products do. It's how the baseboard is constructed that's important. I use 15mm for the frame which is a torsion box design with a 9mm top resulting in a very strong but light baseboard. I have been making them for 3 years now without any problems with warping or twisting that you get from ply and softwood frame. With regard to track pins I don't have a problem getting them in, I use the Peco ones that are more like needles than pins! Sure the odd one bends but on the whole they are fine. Here's a few pics of some recent baseboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dave Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Ply-Wood only no Paper Why would you use paper for baseboards Walter??? Or do you mean MDF which is of course not related to MDF at all, a common misconception. All though I can't for the life of me understand why you dislike MDF so much given that you bought quite a few baseboards from me!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kinvara-Train Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 no choice at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dave Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Not a very nice statement to make Walter, neither are the misinformed ones you keep throwing out about MDF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Noel Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 As a cabinet maker first and foremost, I would not use Sundeala, it is very unstable and needs a lot of support it was originally designed to be bonded to a more stable substrate like plywood. The problem with plywood is quality, most of the plywood that is imported into Ireland is from the far east and is full of voids and is not properly laminated. It can and does de-laminate and collapse when you try to put a screw through it. Even marine ply is not proper marine ply any more.To use a decent plywood you would have to use Birch ply which is 5 times the cost of normal ply. When I started to design my first commercial baseboard I tried ply and Birch ply, the Birch ply was brilliant but commercially too expensive and the end cost of the baseboard was too high. That's why I use MDF, not the crap that you get in B&Q. I use Medite Premier MDF, it is very high quality and is incredibly stable because there is no grain it doesn't suffer from expansion and contraction the other products do. It's how the baseboard is constructed that's important. I use 15mm for the frame which is a torsion box design with a 9mm top resulting in a very strong but light baseboard. I have been making them for 3 years now without any problems with warping or twisting that you get from ply and softwood frame. With regard to track pins I don't have a problem getting them in, I use the Peco ones that are more like needles than pins! Sure the odd one bends but on the whole they are fine. Here's a few pics of some recent baseboards. [ATTACH=CONFIG]19180[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19181[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19180[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19182[/ATTACH] Those baseboards look superb. As I said earlier I successfully used ply 22 years ago, but if I was starting out again now I would certainly give serious consideration to a modern MDF that takes track pins. My RC model aircraft workbenches were constructed from MDF and they take a lot of load pressure unlike model rail baseboards which have static loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dave Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 MDF has moved on Noel, it used to be very nasty stuff. I can stand on mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Broithe Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 MDF has moved on Noel, it used to be very nasty stuff. You will sometimes hear horror stories about MDF being toxic - it does, however, like many natural woods do, have some issues to contend with. http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/faq-mdf.htm A lot of the problem is more a result of modern machinery producing finer and more easily inhalable dust. It's not a huge issue for an amateur. And you won't get splinters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Dave Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 You will sometimes hear horror stories about MDF being toxic - it does, however, like many natural woods do, have some issues to contend with. http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/faq-mdf.htm A lot of the problem is more a result of modern machinery producing finer and more easily inhalable dust. It's not a huge issue for an amateur. And you won't get splinters! Yes good dust extraction is a must, but if your cutting it with a rough blade the dust particles are quite big. But on my workshop panel saw the blade is a fine cutting blade and the dust is like flour. Also sanding produces very fine dust, before I dispatch any order I hoover the baseboards thoroughly and wipe them down to ensure they are dust free when they are dispatched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 jhb171achill Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Long time since I sawed a baseboard, but I used to do so outdoors for the reasons of dust, no matter what stuff I was using.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Irishrailwayman Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Evening guys, What type of wood do you use a base? I'm thinking 8'4 as next part of my layout.. I remember sundela use to be popular in the UK years ago.. Cheers MJ The book "First steps in railway modelling" by CJ Freezer has a detailed discussion on building baseboards. Marks Models and other outlets should have it available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Irish Rail Posted June 5, 2015 Author Share Posted June 5, 2015 The book "First steps in railway modelling" by CJ Freezer has a detailed discussion on building baseboards. Marks Models and other outlets should have it available. Cheers IRM I've already built the first section of my layout.. http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/168-Fingal-County I had just wondered had there been any advancements since I built it a few years ago Cheers for the tip though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 BosKonay Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Looking forward to new installments Irish rail± Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 irishthump Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 The book "First steps in railway modelling" by CJ Freezer has a detailed discussion on building baseboards. Marks Models and other outlets should have it available. That book is nearly 30 years old. I hope it has been revised to take into account the advances in building materials.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Irish Rail Posted June 5, 2015 Author Share Posted June 5, 2015 Cheers Boskonay. .. have to blame the well timed Marks Models sale and adverts on Facebook I got 7071, 071 and Galway EGV to complete my set and few Oxford die casts. . My outline is a hornby complete trackmat type design at the moment extended to 8x4 and spur line towards the port with a loop bringing the trains back.. Or something like that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 GSR 800 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I have MDF on my layout,I believe it is waterproof,that's what the builder said. Very durable stuff although the shed did need a good vacuuming after(due to the dust) but it seems more sturdy than the rest of the shed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 skinner75 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I have MDF on my layout,I believe it is waterproof,that's what the builder said. Very durable stuff although the shed did need a good vacuuming after(due to the dust) but it seems more sturdy than the rest of the shed! You don't want to go breathing in dust from MDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 GSR 800 Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Definitely,it can cause serious lung damage. One of the few cons of MDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Irish Rail
Evening guys,
What type of wood do you use a base?
I'm thinking 8'4 as next part of my layout..
I remember sundela use to be popular in the UK years ago..
Cheers
MJ
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