CIE Standard coach (laminate stock)

[Junctionmad]

If there was enough of a market for that in RTR then there would be. Most would not want it or not be willing to pay for it.

 

The point is, that good scratch builders can out perform rtr. Rtr is a compromise , that's it's nature

[Glenderg]

You think say Tony mills 21mm models with working inside Valve gear would be beaten by rtr. Hah

 

Yes I know what inside motion is, no need to bold it.

 

Did tony mills make a better version of a MM 141/181 by himself? No.

 

i professionally scratch build stuff for people. As well as well as having a hand in the manufacture of RTR, so I'm fairly well placed to tell you your argument is gobbledeegook.

[Garfield]

OK, folks... for everyone's sake I'm going to lock this thread for the night and re-open it in the morning, when hopefully those getting all hot and bothered will have had a chance to sleep on it, and see things with a fresh (read: relaxed) perspective.

 

Hopefully no further action will be needed...

 

 

(That's genuine archive footage of Wrenneire on duty up in Mala Mala above, in case anyone's wondering)

 

And in the meantime, here's a pic of some laminates to keep you all happy:

 

 

 

See y'all bright and early!

Edited November 10, 2015 by Garfield

[Warbonnet]

Okay gents, thread reopened. Please take heed of the warnings both Patrick and I issued yesterday/last night. Last thing we want to do is hand out infractions and bans and lock threads. Please keep on topic, it should be about the laminate coach and nowt else. Thank you.

[Weshty]

Well just to inform you that thanks to this thread SSM enterprises have horsed into a few outstanding actions. As a result we have some lovely new accessories in the pipeline for all you Park Royal, Laminate and 50's Bredin enthusiasts. More anon.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Weshty

[Junctionmad]

Yes I know what inside motion is, no need to bold it.

 

Did tony mills make a better version of a MM 141/181 by himself? No.

 

i professionally scratch build stuff for people. As well as well as having a hand in the manufacture of RTR, so I'm fairly well placed to tell you your argument is gobbledeegook.

 

 

Perhaps I did not explain myself well.

 

What I meant was. To me , their are scratch builders at the top of the gsme, that will always produce exquisite stuff.

 

Below that we have rtr enthusiasts , kit bashes, and ordinary mortals.

 

Hence we benefit from ALL models released , whether high quality , medium quality or whatever. Because we can choose to purchase or not and we set the standards for our layouts. If we want we can detail and improve rtr model too.

 

So wether a model s injection moulded, resin, 3D , it's up to us to decide what's acceptable for us. Critism of models is misplaced, simply let your wallet do the talking. If we were all to wait for top class rtr Injection moulded, we'd have little stock on our layouts.

 

Yes MM set the bar quite high , but in reality it's up to each of us to decide what our " bar " is.

[jhb171achill]

Now that's seriously good news from Wsehty!

 

It's great that we can now have authentic CIE trains. For younger enthusiasts, used to identical rakes of DD, Mk3, Mk2, NIR, Mk4, or (in recent years) Craven stock, do bear in mind that prior to 1980 trains with all the same type of carriages twere virtually unheard of.

 

All through the sixties, seventies, and eighties, trains of non-a/c stock would be a complete mix, a typical make up being a mixture of Cravens, Park Royals, Bredins (pre late 70s), several types of laminates, and prior to 1974 still the occasional old wooden bogie of GSWR origin, or an ex GNR K15. These would be trailed by a four or six wheeled tin van, a BR van or a Dutch van. Until about 1969 there were still at least two old wooden six-wheeled passenger brakes in use, by now in black'n'tan. (The only six wheelers ever to get that livery, incidentally).

 

All of the above are now available in model form. Excellent news.

Edited July 30, 2018 by jhb171achill

[Warbonnet]

Perhaps I did not explain myself well.

 

What I meant was. To me , their are scratch builders at the top of the gsme, that will always produce exquisite stuff.

 

Below that we have rtr enthusiasts , kit bashes, and ordinary mortals.

 

Hence we benefit from ALL models released , whether high quality , medium quality or whatever. Because we can choose to purchase or not and we set the standards for our layouts. If we want we can detail and improve rtr model too.

 

So wether a model s injection moulded, resin, 3D , it's up to us to decide what's acceptable for us. Critism of models is misplaced, simply let your wallet do the talking. If we were all to wait for top class rtr Injection moulded, we'd have little stock on our layouts.

 

Yes MM set the bar quite high , but in reality it's up to each of us to decide what our " bar " is.

 

Please keep on topic, it should be about the laminate coach and nowt else. Thank you.

 

It's quite a simple request really.

[jhb171achill]

Am I imagining it or was there a kit at one time of a laminate brake?

[Mayner]

Am I imagining it or was there a kit at one time of a laminate brake?

 

Worsley Works produce sets of scratchbuilders parts for the Laminate 1449-1496 64 Seater Standard open and the 1908-1913 main line Brake Standards

 

Worsley Works Laminate Brake on temporary bogies finished with Comet Castings SSM decals

Hopefully Des is about to announce the correct 8' Irish lightweight Commonwealth Bogies

Edited November 10, 2015 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

That's it, Mayner, thanks.

[Kirley]

Well just to inform you that thanks to this thread SSM enterprises have horsed into a few outstanding actions. As a result we have some lovely new accessories in the pipeline for all you Park Royal, Laminate and 50's Bredin enthusiasts. More anon.

 

Hope you are including roofs in your current plans Des.

[Weshty]

Mayner called it correctly.

 

 

I've finalised the Irish Commonwealth bogie, a very different creature than its UK counterpart. Note that it comes as a mirrored set. This will be sold with an etched bogie and wheels (like the 42' bogie flat). I hope to provide buffers and cast gangway as well.

 

[RedRich]

Looks good Des.

 

Rich,

[Riversuir226]

Mayner called it correctly.

 

 

I've finalised the Irish Commonwealth bogie, a very different creature than its UK counterpart. Note that it comes as a mirrored set. This will be sold with an etched bogie and wheels (like the 42' bogie flat). I hope to provide buffers and cast gangway as well.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20807[/ATTACH]

 

Nice one Des, they look the business

[josefstadt]

Looks great Des. Just one small point. I think that the two angled bars (indicate by the arrows in the photos) should be horizontal.

 

Model

 

Prototype

[Weshty]

I am fully aware that the bar is higher than it should be, though the prototype angle does vary depending on how laden the coach is.

 

Changing the angle would require a complete redesign of the donor etches and a two month delay at the very least. This project had been on the long finger for four years so if I didn't build it now, it would never get done, and ergo, no irish commonwealth. And I don't see anyone else rushing to design,etch and spend 3 nights sweat soldering 1.5mm x 1.5mm brass gubbins together Well, maybe one or two, you know who you are.

 

The pattern is only 40mm in length, not the 160mm it appears on the scree

n

I will be releasing it as it is, caveat emptor, and given it is in white metal, snip the bar at one end and adjust to your heart's content. Simples.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Weshty

[jhb171achill]

If anyone's ever interested, arrangements can be made via myself for you to get up close, measuring and and photographic, with this type of bogie on several Downpatrick coaches.

[josefstadt]

I am fully aware that the bar is higher than it should be, though the prototype angle does vary depending on how laden the coach is.

 

Changing the angle would require a complete redesign of the donor etches and a two month delay at the very least. This project had been on the long finger for four years so if I didn't build it now, it would never get done, and ergo, no irish commonwealth. And I don't see anyone else rushing to design,etch and spend 3 nights sweat soldering 1.5mm x 1.5mm brass gubbins together Well, maybe one or two, you know who you are.

 

The pattern is only 40mm in length, not the 160mm it appears on the scree

n

I will be releasing it as it is, caveat emptor, and given it is in white metal, snip the bar at one end and adjust to your heart's content. Simples.

 

Fair play Des. That's why I said 'small' point.

[Horsetan]

Meanwhile, the IFM Park Royals are sold out, so it looks like we're in for a long wait to see if another batch is produced....

[jhb171achill]

I think someone did a brass kit for the PR - maybe Worsley?

[Horsetan]

I think someone did a brass kit for the PR - maybe Worsley?

 

Just checked; yes, Worsley still do. The door to a Park Royal is still open.

[Blaine]

Meanwhile, the IFM Park Royals are sold out, so it looks like we're in for a long wait to see if another batch is produced....

 

How many were made RTR?

[Horsetan]

How many were made RTR?

 

No idea. You'd have to ask IFM.

[Noel]

Just checked; yes, Worsley still do. The door to a Park Royal is still open.

 

But as I understand it, WW are not complete kits, hence the builder has to source quite a few separate components to complete it including the roof.

[jhb171achill]

Correct, Noel.

[flange lubricator]

On 11/10/2015 at 10:33 PM, Weshty said:

Mayner called it correctly.

 

 

I've finalised the Irish Commonwealth bogie, a very different creature than its UK counterpart. Note that it comes as a mirrored set. This will be sold with an etched bogie and wheels (like the 42' bogie flat). I hope to provide buffers and cast gangway as well.

 

Any update on these Weshty ? 

[Weshty]

Good lord, is it three years??   If there is a demand for them, I'll get the moulds made in the next few weeks.  Let me know folks.

[jhb171achill]

I'm digging this up because the title of the thread is relevant.

IRM have, as we have lately seen, to be complimented on the way they ask questions of their customers and listen to the answers, then explain what issues THEY must deal with before producing another high-end model.

The ballasts, cements, and now ferts are a great addition. I wonder, though, would IRM consider perhaps taking one of the varieties of laminates not already covered by other manufacturers, or even an AEC railcar, and making an equally high-End RTR model of one of those?

[DiveController]

Yup! Anything produced from this era I would buy since my only other resource would be to buy from another manufacturer who has been heavily criticized by modelers and manufacturers alike at various times. If a high quality laminate 1449-, 1429- or Park Royals appeared I would buy a rake maybe 10 of each, even if brakes, mails, PTOs were not viable to be produced with them, (Jon, I know they didn't run in rakes). They'd look superb among other stock. One or two would have to be resprayed if necessary into a silver livery such as a 1429-. AEC railcars, I would see myself buying three or four pretty much like I have each of the MM 141 in B'n'T and Supertrain plus spares to renumber to more of the class. Again I'd be interested in earlier liveried A classes if/when they are produced. However, if we're having a discussion on at the viability of a CIE plough van, I don;t know if this would ever be realized. It's a shame more limited runs can't be produced like the 111 class locos. Maybe Accurascale sales can be used to subsidize greater variety in the tiny market for Irish models or it's back to resin models, I suppose.

 

[Railer]

I'd be in the same boat guys. If IRM threw open the ordering book for a rake of 8-10 of either laminates or Park Royals I'd be all over both. 

[Warbonnet]

8 hours ago, DiveController said:

However, if we're having a discussion on at the viability of a CIE plough van, I don;t know if this would ever be realized. It's a shame more limited runs can't be produced like the 111 class locos. Maybe Accurascale sales can be used to subsidize greater variety in the tiny market for Irish models or it's back to resin models, I suppose.

 

Hi Kevin,

Okay, I think you've read the wrong way into our recent discussion on the plough vans.

There are very few, if any, more niche items to be made than the CIE plough van. We thought 1,000 would be a struggle to sell, as a rake of ballast wagons only needs two plough vans, hence asking is 1,500 of them actually viable. Rakes of items, whether they be wagons or coaches, are more viable certainly. Nobody wants a rake of plough vans, that's for sure. That's why we've asked you all for support to make it happen, so everyone is kept as happy as possible. 

The 111s are viable as they are just an 071 in a different livery. Locos are sexy, and few more sexy than the 071s, so you can sell lots of them. A lot more 071s were made than any plough van will ever be. Accurascale and IRM are two separate entities, so both must be viable and succeed. We cant make 5,000 plough vans and leave 3,000 to rot on the shelves using Accurascale money. It doesn't work that way sadly!

As for coaches, I'm sure we will look at them. Locos too. But these things take time, lots of it, and we have a packed schedule which costs a f**k ton of money to produce first, so we dont want to get ahead of ourselves and lay claim to everything and leave everyone waiting for years. These things will happen, but it takes time. It's far more likely to be produced now than it was a few years ago, I think that's what everybody needs to remember. 

Sorry for taking your quote out above, but I feel it is most important to stop the rumour mill going into overdrive, especially when the narrative is incorrectly interpreted. We're an approachable bunch as you said, so just ask us out straight about these things.

Cheers,

Fran

  

[jhb171achill]

Fran, Pat et al;

I am sure I speak for the vast majority here in appreciating your practical approach to your various projects. It is refreshing to see this type of interaction (same as with ECM trains a few years ago), where the manufacturer engages with potential clients. Not all is practical, or ever will be; but where it is, this is the best way to go about it.

It simply isn't possible to realistically model the 1980s / 90s without beet, fert and bubbles. How often we see superb layouts, with excellent locomotives and coaches, all perfectly modelled, weathered, and in keeping with the era portrayed; then around the corner comes a 141 or a 201 trailing an identical rake of BR ventilated banana vans with a BR brake van endowed with a CIE roundel! Leslie, for the four wheeled era, SSM and IRM, also Irish Freight Models and others I may have missed, have made this unnecessary.

It is equally impossible to model 1950-86 - a FAR longer period, without AEC railcars. A powered and unpowered one are really needed. The unpowered one could have an option of being used as a pre-Dart push/pull as well. Such a basic body shape will cover the GNR, CIE, UTA and NIR, through three decades almost.

They never ran singly, therefore a pair would be necessary. For what my tuppence ha'penny is worth, I'd certainly want two pairs, maybe three. Despite this post not being up 24 hours, as seen above others have already indicated a similar interest. Liveries included GNR navy & cream, UTA green, NIR maroon and grey, CIE green and black'n'tan. (I'd hate to see one in ICR or NIR "red bull" livery!).

Also, I would echo what others have said in terms of buying a good few Park Royals or whatever you decided to do from the CIE 1955-70 stable. Shtick me on the order list.

[DiveController]

13 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Kevin,

Okay, I think you've read the wrong way into our recent discussion on the plough vans.

There are very few, if any, more niche items to be made than the CIE plough van. We thought 1,000 would be a struggle to sell, as a rake of ballast wagons only needs two plough vans, hence asking is 1,500 of them actually viable. Rakes of items, whether they be wagons or coaches, are more viable certainly. Nobody wants a rake of plough vans, that's for sure. That's why we've asked you all for support to make it happen, so everyone is kept as happy as possible. 

The 111s are viable as they are just an 071 in a different livery. Locos are sexy, and few more sexy than the 071s, so you can sell lots of them. A lot more 071s were made than any plough van will ever be. Accurascale and IRM are two separate entities, so both must be viable and succeed. We cant make 5,000 plough vans and leave 3,000 to rot on the shelves using Accurascale money. It doesn't work that way sadly!

As for coaches, I'm sure we will look at them. Locos too. But these things take time, lots of it, and we have a packed schedule which costs a f**k ton of money to produce first, so we dont want to get ahead of ourselves and lay claim to everything and leave everyone waiting for years. These things will happen, but it takes time. It's far more likely to be produced now than it was a few years ago, I think that's what everybody needs to remember. 

Sorry for taking your quote out above, but I feel it is most important to stop the rumour mill going into overdrive, especially when the narrative is incorrectly interpreted. We're an approachable bunch as you said, so just ask us out straight about these things.

Cheers,

Fran

  

I'm not sure what happened here or what narrative was mis interpreted exactly. I maybe didn't realize how niche the CIE plough would be as a model. It's not just the number of prototypes but also the number of modelers potentially interested in running or displaying models from that period. I know there were only a few ploughs and I understand that no one wants to buy a rake of them which is why I stated regarding laminates ..."even if brakes, mails, PTOs were not viable to be produced with them". If you guys are seriously intending to consider this earlier at some point then I'm very pleased to hear that. I didn't think that might be viable based on the number of modelers, models being  produced much later when  the cost will be higher etc. I stand corrected as you'll know the economics of this.. Anyway, these were just my thoughts, and weren't meant to derogate in any way.

K

[sayhall27]

Hi all just want to say the work of all the people creating Irish models is fantastic for us wanting to protray an Irish railways scene.

John look at silver fox models they do both an AEC and BUT railcar pair as a kit or ready to run along with many other Irish "delights" I'm considering looking I to them myself after a number of projects first.