Might-have-beens

[jhb171achill]

Recent mention of the proposed Sligo Leitrim Garrett and the NIR push/pull coach at Downpatrick (which never turned a wheel in actual traffic) prompted me to seek this out.

This is from a 1948 issue of CIE’s “Cuisle” magazine, showing a proposed diesel-electric locomotive; family resemblances to what would become the B113 class (all two of them) are obvious.

Strangely, the “flying snails” are back to front!

Edited May 4, 2020 by jhb171achill

[airfixfan]

Would this has something to do with the 6 pairs of Sulzer engines ordered by 1948. The engines were for new Diesel locos cancelled by the Milne report. However with contracts signed they ended up stored at Inchicore before being used for the B101 class a few years later

[irishthump]

29 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Would this has something to do with the 6 pairs of Sulzer engines ordered by 1948. The engines were for new Diesel locos cancelled by the Milne report. However with contracts signed they ended up stored at Inchicore before being used for the B101 class a few years later

Those engines were originally to be used for 6 double engined locos to be used for express passenger services.

[Midland Man]

Are any persevered and is there a kit to build them?

[Lambeg man]

Is it just me? Clicked on the picture link and got - The file you were looking for could not be found

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

Are any persevered and is there a kit to build them?

No, it's an artist's impression - they were never built.

 

1 hour ago, Lambeg man said:

Is it just me? Clicked on the picture link and got - The file you were looking for could not be found

I'll try to fix this.

2 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Would this has something to do with the 6 pairs of Sulzer engines ordered by 1948. The engines were for new Diesel locos cancelled by the Milne report. However with contracts signed they ended up stored at Inchicore before being used for the B101 class a few years later

Very possibly!

OK, the pic of this thing seems to have disappeared; here it is.

 

[Lambeg man]

Thanks JHB, got it now. What a strange looking beast. Is that a door in the middle of the front panel? The bogies appear a tad flimsy as well.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Lambeg man

[Garfield]

This drawing pre-dates the construction of 1000 and 1001 (B113 and B114), which apparently got underway in 1949, so it's likely this is an artist's impression of what these locos would look like when complete, rather than having anything to do with the proposed twin-engined locos.

I recall seeing an outline drawing of what the twin-engined Sulzers were supposed to look like some time ago. From what I remember, they would essentially have been 'stretched' versions of the first two prototypes, but possibly would have had tri-axle bogies.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, it's an artist's impression - those bogies would be better suited to the Schull & Skib!

I am intrigued as to why the "flying snails" are the wrong way round...........

[RichL]

The design has a very Swiss 'feel'  in outline - Sulzer influence, maybe?

A bit like these designed for Romania, but with a door in the front, hence 3-window cab instead of 2 windows?

[Broithe]

24 minutes ago, Garfield said:

This drawing pre-dates the construction of 1000 and 1001 (B113 and B114), which apparently got underway in 1949, so it's likely this is an artist's impression of what these locos would look like when complete, rather than having anything to do with the proposed twin-engined locos.

I recall seeing an outline drawing of what the twin-engined Sulzers were supposed to look like some time ago. From what I remember, they would essentially have been 'stretched' versions of the first two prototypes, but possibly would have had tri-axle bogies.

That's no reason not to produce a short run of them.

Do you have a timescale yet?

[jhb171achill]

Now THERE'S a layout idea. Buy one of those Swiss things, or something broadly similar, and paint it green...................!

[minister_for_hardship]

What is protruding from the cab roof? A whistle? Some economy with the single wiper too. 

[jhb171achill]

11 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

What is protruding from the cab roof? A whistle? Some economy with the single wiper too. 

Yes, actually many early diesels had single wipers, and there was actually a plan investigated to put whistles off scrapped steam engines onto new "A" classes, believe it or not!

[NIR]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

I am intrigued as to why the "flying snails" are the wrong way round...........

Maybe everyone was struggling with the idea of something powered yet not having a front end and a back end. Did those Drumm battery electrics ever have a flying snail?

Edited May 4, 2020 by NIR

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, NIR said:

Maybe everyone was struggling with the idea of something powered yet not having a front end and a back end. Did those Drumm battery electrics ever have a flying snail?

Quite possibly....

The Drumms did end up as hauled coaches in CIE green, yes. being the older (darker) green, this came with two (normal!) "snails" on each side, spaced as usual on carriages, about a third and two thirds along the sides.

[Irishswissernie]

36 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

there was actually a plan investigated to put whistles off scrapped steam engines onto new "A" classes, believe it or not

Probably another Swiss idea. All the SBB Swiss electric locomotives and railcars  built prior to the Class 450 and 460 in the late 1990's had whistles rather than horns. I last visited the Gottard in 2016 just prior to the opening of the Alptransit Base tunnel and the Class Re 4/4'' and Re 6/6'' were sounding the whistles in salute at the numerous photographers on the North ramp around Wassen.

[Galteemore]

It’s still one of the nicest features of the London Underground, too! 

[Noel]

4 hours ago, Midland Man said:

Are any persevered and is there a kit to build them?

If its the Sulzer 101 class 12 were built in 1956 which seems a bit later. B103 is held by preservation group ITG in storage 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_101_Class

There is a resin kit available from Silverfox if that is the loco you mean. (see below)

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/ir-ie-101-class-b-class-a1a-a1a-brcw/

 

 

[Old Blarney]

53 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Quite possibly....

The Drumms did end up as hauled coaches in CIE green, yes. being the older (darker) green, this came with two (normal!) "snails" on each side, spaced as usual on carriages, about a third and two thirds along the sides.

Might there be a Beaumont amongst these? Multiple photographs of Drumm Train A. Images from Gettyimages.

https://www.gettyimages.ae/photos/archival-photos-drumm-train?family=editorial&phrase=archival photos Drumm Train&sort=best#license

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Old Blarney

[Galteemore]

Brilliant pics. Dev features large, of course, but also Sean T O’Kelly and Sean Lemass. Thanks for these ! P

Edited May 4, 2020 by Galteemore

[Old Blarney]

Where is this location? 

[jhb171achill]

31 minutes ago, Old Blarney said:

Might there be a Beaumont amongst these? Multiple photographs of Drumm Train A. Images from Gettyimages.

https://www.gettyimages.ae/photos/archival-photos-drumm-train?family=editorial&phrase=archival photos Drumm Train&sort=best#license

 

I doubt it, Old Blarney - he had an aversion to public events of any sort! Had he been invited (and he could well have been) he would more than likely have turned it down.... 

I had, indeed, searched the faces in those photos before, and there's no sign of that moustache.....!

[Old Blarney]

The Drumm as I remember them! Batteries removed and driving windows plated over. Returning to the Drumm Trains and their carrying The Flying Snail, I believe I'm correct in stating C or D did so. I have seen a colour photograph of one of these two sets stabled in Foxrock sidings. A certain individual, may read this, and post his picture of the set! Here's hoping! Who might the young lad be? For a second or two, I believed it is I!

  

[jhb171achill]

I too have seen that picture, Old Blarney, though I can't just place where! Yes, it would have been C & D - the others, I think, were long gone.

[K801]

is there any video anywhere of the Sulzers in action?

[Old Blarney]

7 hours ago, K801 said:

is there any video anywhere of the Sulzers in action?

I looked through "youtube", but cannot find anything there on our Sultzer locomotives. Lots of still images on various sites. Somewhere at the back-of-my-mind there is an image of a 101 travelling between Waterford and Dungarvan. I'll continue my hunt for moving images. 

[NIR]

2 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

I looked through "youtube", but cannot find anything there on our Sultzer locomotives. Lots of still images on various sites. Somewhere at the back-of-my-mind there is an image of a 101 travelling between Waterford and Dungarvan. I'll continue my hunt for moving images. 

Think that was posted on here around three months ago.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by NIR

[BSGSV]

15 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

Where is this location? 

Could be the Curragh on one of the test runs?

[Midland Man]

The Curagh siding or the Salins juntion?

[airfixfan]

On 5/4/2020 at 7:35 PM, Garfield said:

This drawing pre-dates the construction of 1000 and 1001 (B113 and B114), which apparently got underway in 1949, so it's likely this is an artist's impression of what these locos would look like when complete, rather than having anything to do with the proposed twin-engined locos.

I recall seeing an outline drawing of what the twin-engined Sulzers were supposed to look like some time ago. From what I remember, they would essentially have been 'stretched' versions of the first two prototypes, but possibly would have had tri-axle bogies.

The first 2 main line diesels were ordered in 1946 and indeed 1001 was out shopped in January 1950 during the time of this draft design

 This suggests that this draft design was for the 2 Express passenger diesel locos planned in 1946. By the time the Milne report of Dec 1948 cancelled this order firv6 mixed traffic diesels the diesel engines had been ordered but CIE could not cancel the contract due to penalty clauses. The engines were shipped to Inchicore before being returned to England years later for the 12 Sulzer locos built by BRCW in 1956/57

Shows the danger of using some secondary sources that refer to each other. This is how mistakes become so called facts it took me finding an article on the Sulzers in IRRS Journal 86 to realise my mistake. Should have known Garfield was correct!

Edited May 8, 2020 by airfixfan

[Mayner]

CIEs first diesel proposal was heavily influenced heavily by a visit senior management possibly the Chairman & General Manager to the United States and included a single ended diesel locomotive and a luxury diesel tourist train. The American visit and a drive for economy may have influenced CIEs operating methods from the late 1940s to the 70s with many main line services down to one or two passenger/mail trains daily in contrast to the more frequent passenger services under GSR management & the 1946-7 timetable.

Its possible that the tourist train may have been influenced by some of the American Streamliners of the 1940s.

Its possible the Chairman (ex DUTC?) after his visit to America had the vision of a single daily "Streamliner" setting out from Kingsbridge for Cork with an A and possibly a couple of B units and stainless steel coaches, with through cars for Waterford, Cork Limerick and Tralee, before being brought back to reality by scarce post war resources and dwindling passenger traffic.

The delay in implementing the diesel programme and decision to build the first diesel locos at Inchacore was mainly due to the lack of capacity of the British locomotive builders and shortage of raw materials.

The engineers at Inchacore basically got it right with the selection of a Sulzer engine and Metrovicks electrical equipment for 1100 & 1101 but the locos were let down by the use of plate frame bogies which were rough riding not unlike similar bogies used in the Southern Diesels, EE Type 4 & Peaks. At the time decision to use plate frame rather than the more satisfactory cast steel bogies  used in the LMS Twins and American locos may have been forced on CIE by supply problems and cost with setting up to produce a small number of broad gauge bogies.

Has anyone an artists image or a drawing of the proposed twin-engined Sulzers? The twin-engined diesels and diesel Tourist Train are two of the most intriguing might of beens on Irish Railways.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Mayner

[Arbhin]

The engine in that picture looks a bit like an old engine from Nederland. Just after the war the NS was looking for an engine to exchange with steam engines. They came up with this beast: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_1000_(elektrische_locomotief)#/media/Bestand:Spoorwegmuseum_loc_NS_1010.jpg

They have been used up till 1982. But were known for trouble. 

[jhb171achill]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 11:35 AM, Arbhin said:

The engine in that picture looks a bit like an old engine from Nederland. Just after the war the NS was looking for an engine to exchange with steam engines. They came up with this beast: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_1000_(elektrische_locomotief)#/media/Bestand:Spoorwegmuseum_loc_NS_1010.jpg

They have been used up till 1982. But were known for trouble. 

A peculiar looking beast indeed!

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2020 at 3:23 AM, K801 said:

is there any video anywhere of the Sulzers in action?

The only chance I can think of is if anyone took ciné of 106 on the last-ever run of them, an IRRS special about February or March in - I think - 1978. I was on it, and managed a cab run (in a CROWDED cab; "health'n'safety", and the poor driver's nerves, be damned!) from Lansdowne Road to Dalkey.

I did not have a high-end camera then, and the pics I took are nothing different to those taken by many others with better cameras. Perhaps someone like Walter McGrath or Tony Price was on that trip? If so, and IF they took "moving" images, they will now be with the IRRS.

Some old clips of trains on the north Wexford line and the Mallow - Waterford may show them - they were regulars on the latter until the 121s largely displaced them. There are bits of wobbly colour film on youtube here and there covering that.

[K801]

I wish the IRRS would post more of there old diesel videos on YouTube, probably had to get volunteers to convert the film