What determines a re-run of a model?

[mmie353]

What determines a manufacturer to look at re-releasing a model, I am referring to the 141. From the prices they are fetching lately on ebay, is it not worth by anyone to look at producing another run of them? To be honest, I am pretty tapped out at the moment with the 121's and I would like to order more A class, but I would look at getting some more 141's and 181's if there was another run, in the next couple of years? 

I know that we are asking for more and more of new models not released yet but think I am not the only one that would look at getting more of any other models that have been released already. 

I have admired all the models that Paddy Murphy has given us, as for any other models I have purchased from other manufacturers. I cannot thank them all enough for all their efforts in bringing us what they have in the way of models for the Irish market, fair play to ye all. 

Mark

Edited July 2, 2020 by mmie353

[Railer]

I'd second this, and I've brought it up a few times, another run 141/181s would sell very well I feel. To me they are still the best running locos released by PM.

[NIRCLASS80]

It would be a brave decision to rerun production on these just at present. Although demand may seem high some did sell fairly slowly and they now have a lot of other Irish related products to compete with.   It also doesn’t take many people to be looking for one for prices on eBay are through the roof.  

Very tricky situation  

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by NIRCLASS80

[Edo]

Yeah another run of the 141/181s would be great - I'd be buying multiples as I missed out the first time around - I think a more modern version would be good as the forthcoming 121s and IRM's A class are going to considerably raise the bar for standards and detail.

but not this year or next as we'll all be a bit skint with whats in production at the moment........

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Edo

[NIRCLASS80]

I would imagine a C Class will be a possibility from IRM soon after the A Class. 

[Railer]

19 minutes ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

I would imagine a C Class will be a possibility from IRM soon after the A Class. 

As far as I'm aware, IRM intended to do the C class first believe it or not. I think it was was Richie telling me that the day they measured up the A class he was expecting to survey the C. 

[WRENNEIRE]

I mentioned this before people!
The cost of a re run would be prohibitive because of the numbers involved
There are 18 various models with a run of 504 of each, over 9000 all told
this is just about the minimum run that could be made in order for MM to make a few bob
China at the moment wants bigger runs, so to do a run of 2000, your model would be costing in the €250 - €300 bracket or more depending on whether they would even entertain making the model or not

Not going to happen!

[jhb171achill]

If a “C” appears, I’m selling the car....!

[WRENNEIRE]

So only buying one JHB?

 

[NIRCLASS80]

Fancy a few NIR MV’s myself!

[flange lubricator]

2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If a “C” appears, I’m selling the car....!

Along with the family silver the house and any shares   , never mind bitcoin or gold just but irish diesel locomotives !

[flange lubricator]

7 minutes ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

Fancy a few NIR MV’s myself!

That is what would make the C/B201 a good proposition multiple liveries including NIR  , three versions , Crossley engine version , Maybach and GM645 .

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by flange lubricator

[Warbonnet]

1 hour ago, Railer said:

As far as I'm aware, IRM intended to do the C class first believe it or not. I think it was was Richie telling me that the day they measured up the A class he was expecting to survey the C. 

Nope, that's bull. Was always going to be the A. I wouldnt believe everything I hear! 

[DiveController]

I wouldn't have thought that it would be viable to do a full run several models in 4 liveries for the 141/181, 9000 models as Dave says. I thought when people referred to a rerun, they were talking about maybe one new unweathered number in each livery which might give you 2000 models which is a lot to sell. If modelers wanted more they could renumber or weather to their needs.

If the Chinese do not want to do less than 2k units in a run, that would potentially be problematic not just for a MM rerun but also so other niche models like JM designs may wish to do or some of the 1970s wagons such a magnesites or barytes ever seeing the light of day.

Does this mean that the Chinese are saturated with injecting enough plastic for the world that they're now able to dictate what's worth their while on a bigger scale and will this bring in another workforce to undercut the Chinese just as this work previously moved to China from Europe and the Americas?

EDIT: Forgot to say that then there is buyers expectations and comparisons being drawn with state of the art locos such as the upcoming A if the original tooling was used and available. Many would not want to have to fiddle with tiny switches or have to install aftermarket sugar cube speakers or remove the cab only for it not to fit back perfectly and expectations would lead to comparisons still being drawn between something designed recently and nearly 2 decades ago  

Edited July 2, 2020 by DiveController

[Noel]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

If a “C” appears, I’m selling the car....!

I'll have to sell my tesla shares.  

[Noel]

39 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I wouldn't have thought that it would be viable to do a full run several models in 4 liveries for the 141/181, 9000 models as Dave says. I thought when people referred to a rerun, they were talking about maybe one new unweathered number in each livery which might give you 2000 models which is a lot to sell. If modelers wanted more they could renumber or weather to their needs.

If the Chinese do not want to do less than 2k units in a run, that would potentially be problematic not just for a MM rerun but also so other niche models like JM designs may wish to do or some of the 1970s wagons such a magnesites or barytes ever seeing the light of day.

Does this mean that the Chinese are saturated with injecting enough plastic for the world that they're now able to dictate what's worth their while on a bigger scale and will this bring in another workforce to undercut the Chinese just as this work previously moved to China from Europe and the Americas?

EDIT: Forgot to say that then there is buyers expectations and comparisons being drawn with state of the art locos such as the upcoming A if the original tooling was used and available. Many would not want to have to fiddle with tiny switches or have to install aftermarket sugar cube speakers or remove the cab only for it not to fit back perfectly and expectations would lead to comparisons still being drawn between something designed recently and nearly 2 decades ago  

Not quite sure where you are going with that Kevin. The 141,181s were actually produced by Bachmann and over 7000 of them were made over two years and pretty much sold out within 8 years. IRM looks like they have raised the bar a good few notches with their Deltic, A class and class 37, and MM's forthcoming 121 looks like it has also raised the MM bar significantly, so if the 141/181 were ever financially profitable to re-run I suspect the market might expect an update with them too (eg built in speakers, open grills, more lighting options, detailing changes, easy access decoder slot), which could blow costs out of the water. Reading between the lines the market for Irish models seems to have expanded significantly over the past 5 years with a new base of customers entering, who probably missed out on the BGMs first time around. IRM are best placed to run their own internal numbers. Personally I'd love to see old CIE 2 axle wagons, C class, Park Royal and laminates, but the younger age profile of newly arrived customers may have never seen such let alone travelled on them, so bogie hell it may have to be if that's what the market wants. If I was a gambler which I'm not, I'd hang onto my BGMs and off load them next year on eBay for silly money in the expectation that somebody would one day produce refreshed versions that are even better than the current locos. Hard to believe, but to date MM 141s are still the best running locos I've ever operated. Their diminutive size is perfect for typical sized layouts. Not sure now where I was going with this!   

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

So only buying one JHB?

 

A half-share. I’ve only 2 cars.

[DiveController]

3 hours ago, Noel said:

Not quite sure where you are going with that Kevin.    

I think the post is pretty clear, you've basically reiterated what I was saying with a few personal desires. Think we're saying the same thing mostly. 

[leslie10646]

4 hours ago, Noel said:

 Hard to believe, but to date MM 141s are still the best running locos I've ever operated.    

Don't denounce me to the Steam Stasi, or The Ethics Committee,

but I have to agree with Noel - they were a game-changing loco. When I was laying Portadown Junction, I used the 141 to test every inch of new track, then to be sure, I ran a steam loco over it!

[jhb171achill]

Indeed - and oul steam-head HERE has SIX of ‘em!

Question - will the 121s have the same power unit in them?

[DiveController]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying at all that the 141 are not excellent locos. I have all of them and some renumbered for my era but this thread is about doing a rerun of the 141 /181 in particular, and whether that might be a viable proposition or not at some point is the subject that Mark was broaching

Edited July 2, 2020 by DiveController

[Noel]

13 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying at all that the 141 are not excellent locos. I have all of them and some renumbered for my era but this thread is about doing a rerun of the 141 /181 in particular, and whether that might be a viable proposition or not at some point is the subject that Mark was broaching

Ultimately some day somebody will inevitably produce more 141/181s because they were the most widely used diesel locos to run in Ireland spanning 4 decades. The 7500 of them out there being privately held and/or traded will not satisfy future demand by the ever growing Irish hobby base. I fear toy 22k yo-yo sets may hit the market before an update of baby GMs. Only time will tell, first world problems, huh?  

[RKX]

Who has the tooling for the 141/181s? Murphy or Bachman? 

With injection moulding, the big cost is in the tooling. As that exists, and the desire for the product seems to be there, then you'd imagine a Clondike could be made in producing a couple of the most popular liveries.

[DiveController]

Maybe someday, yes I agree. It's hard to gauge future demand although thankfully greater availability of any model creates its own demand as I have said before. The question would be whether production would be economically viable and whether the loco would have competition.

If 141s became available in the morning I probably would not rush to buy them if I had to compromise on what else I had to purchase... 17 A class variant liveries to choose from and a dozen 121 class would be way higher on my list. 

Easy for me to say I have sufficient 141/181s which took me quite a while to acquire second hand after they had 'sold out' many years before.

Would I like to see a new 'second generation' 141 with lights sound, speakers better access while retaining all the fine running characteristics, .. sure!

Say they were available, but there was also CIE/GNR railcar several liveries, possibly intermediates coaches, some laminates, PRs, maybe rtr GSR/CIE steam loco, I still hold off on a new batch of 141s unless funds were unlimited.

Now, there are others out there that may have just come to Irish modeling even more recently that don't even have a single 141 and would like a bunch. When the original 141s were produced there much less rtr 'competition' out there. I don't think that is the case in the golden era of Irish modelling.

Anyway, production is way above my pay grade, so as you say, I'll leave it to MM, IRM and others to figure all that out. Anyone else who wants to jump into the market, sure, go ahead if you've done your research i say

Edited July 2, 2020 by DiveController

[DiveController]

12 minutes ago, RKX said:

Who has the tooling for the 141/181s? Murphy or Bachman? 

With injection moulding, the big cost is in the tooling. As that exists, and the desire for the product seems to be there, then you'd imagine a Clondike could be made in producing a couple of the most popular liveries.

True, that's what I've been saying. The only way you'd do this is if the tooling is owned, available, still intact enough for an additional more limited run. But if what Wrenneire is saying above is correct your loco might still be expensive for a loco that might not quite be as cutting edge as the A class or 121 and comparisons WILL be made

[K801]

I don't know much about setting up contracts between a manufacturer and a purchaser but maybe a line can be inserted to say ( for example) 9000 units now with a future option of another 2000 units within the next 5 years not exceeding a 15% rise in costing

So, if there was a demand in the year 2025 for 121s or As like there is now for the 141/181s , another run could be done

 

 

 

 

[mmie353]

Interesting comments to this one, I know when IRM did a couple of runs of their bubbles, it made sense as they have the molds for them, provided that there was interest in the market for them, and I think they sold well for them. I was thinking of them with reference to the 141's and the 181's and asking, which lead to this thread, what would it take for someone to do another re-run of them locomotives. 

When I am looking at the prices that the 141's are making on ebay lately, I was thinking, it is not something to consider? Definitely not this year, my wallet is taking some hammering at the moment, but there seems to be a demand for them. That is why I was thinking, hmm in the next few years? 

I can see from what Wrenneire has said now when the quantity of a required run and that is a huge cost 250 to 300 Euro. I do not mean to scare anyone over there but there are locomotives sold over here in the US for approx $300 a pop and they do contain DCC sound in them for that. Not like the Hornby TTS sound but like for example, Athearn have a couple of models I have seen for this price with Tsunami sound decoders in them. People would expect to have all the bells and whistles if they are paying 250 euro for a loco, including I. So with a cost of a run without DCC sound built in, would be hard to swallow for 250 euro.

I know there was a period of a few years where the Lima 201's were also making crazy money on ebay at the time, then when Paddy Murphy announced the re-run of them, the prices dropped a lot on them. Even those today look like people are looking for crazy money for those once again today. From comments I have read over the years, the quality of those is nothing compared to the ones that he did the re-run on. They are an example of a re-run done. I know that there are still some new available to purchase which I did not know and I instantly pulled a trigger on a few. 

Going back to IRM, I can see them release more Liners, Taras, ballast wagons etc in the future.. It makes sense that there is the possibility they can make money from molds that they own. Of course the lads at IRM are the only ones that know what future plans for releases they have in the pipeline, after what they have announced they were going to release.. Well that is my 2 cents on this one. 

[Mayner]

The big question is whether there is enough demand for it to be financially worthwhile for Murphy Models to do a re-run of the B141/181 given Kader (Bachmann) minimum production run  without re-tooling.

Since producing the Murphy Models Kader (Bachmann) has focused on high volume manufacture for its own in house brands, ceased manufacturing for competitors in the US and UK market like Walthers and Hornby and moved away from low volume OEM commissions like Paddy Murphy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Group.

Kaders focus on its own brands lead to the growth of a cottage industry (by Far Eastern standards) of smaller factories with smaller minimum production runs than Kader who became OEM manufacturers for companies like Atlas,  Hornby,  Walthers and the large number of "Commissioners" & retailers who market limited runs of one off models such as Kernow, Hattons and Rails that appeared during the last 10 years.

There is a possibility that re-tooling may be required for a repeat run of the small Bo Bos, as the tooling may have been made from a softer material such as aluminium rather than steel to keep the cost down for a limited production run for the Irish market and have become life expired, Kader may be reluctant to hand the tooling over to another factory without some form of compensation  if they are unable or unwilling to produce a repeat run for Murphy Models.

[connollystn]

Are there no model railway producers who manufacture their models in Europe? Is everything made in the Far East?

[spudfan]

To me I would accept a new 141/181 reissue as they are. They are still a high quality locomotive. If the moulds are in an acceptable condition there would be no retooling costs. I can happily live without some of the latest super dooper detailing. Anyone who missed out on the 141/181 earlier issue would be only too glad to purchase them as they are. If reissued as they are and if it is not up to the standard you want just don't buy them.

Edited July 3, 2020 by spudfan

[Railer]

29 minutes ago, spudfan said:

To me I would accept a new 141/181 reissue as they are. They are still a high quality locomotive. If the moulds are in an acceptable condition there would be no retooling costs. I can happily live without some of the latest super dooper detailing. Anyone who missed out on the 141/181 earlier issue would be only too glad to purchase them as they are. If reissued as they are and if it is not up to the standard you want just don't buy them.

For me it's their running qualities that tops them off. It's also the hardest part to replicate in a possible re run IMO as you will have a different factory. 

For me, the 071s, while they have very good running qualities and smooth they justs aren't as buttery smooth and quiet as the BGMs.

[Noel]

45 minutes ago, Railer said:

For me it's their running qualities that tops them off. It's also the hardest part to replicate in a possible re run IMO as you will have a different factory. 

For me, the 071s, while they have very good running qualities and smooth they justs aren't as buttery smooth and quiet as the BGMs.

Agree 100% rolling stock appearance can be irrelevant if it doesn't run well like the prototype. Like you I found the MM BGMs the finest runners ever by a long chalk.

[WRENNEIRE]

MMIE
The Murphy 201 was no a re run
The original 201's were manufactured by Lima in Italy, whereas the MM ones were done by his manufacturer in China
Regarding a re run there are some costs involved
The moulds etc which are owned by PM have to be taken out of storage
The factory floor has to be cleared of its previous job
Then the models are made painted and detailed, boxed and readied for shipping
Then the factory floor is readied for the next job
So irrespective of the amount of models being produced all these different jobs incur the same cost which adds dramatically to a small production
Hornbys Limited Editions are usually 1000 - 2000 models whereas the regular production runs are in the 10,000 range

[connollystn]

I have to agree with the guys about the MM 141/181s, they have great running qualities and nothing since has matched them. As regarding a re-run, the only locomotive that seems viable is the 201 which has had a number of logo and livery updates since they were last produced. In reality, we need to be looking at getting something that's current rather than producing re-runs of prototypes which haven't operated on the rail network in over 10 years.

[spudfan]

The mm 121 class will be with us shortly and they can hardly be classed as current IR stock  (black and tan, original silver seem to be popular  preorders)) also the "A" class is eagerly awaited again hardly "current" rolling stock. Just because the 201 is currently running on our rails does not mean someone will want to buy it. If they want a 141/181 they want a 141/181.

Regarding 141/181, when they were initially issued MM had the development costs to recoup. If they were reissued as is, surely having no development cost to recoup could be reflected in the price? Maybe that would allow a price point below the 121 or the "A" class. By all means keep additional unrepresented models coming but not everyone has the where withall to fulfil their needs when a model hits the shops. Me, I would like one of the small CIE shunters. It would be great for someone entering the hobby. Add in a couple of IRM wagon packs, some sidings and you are set up.

Anyway it is refreshing that we can argue over something like this. Not so many years ago there would have been nothing there to argue over!

Edited July 3, 2020 by spudfan