Feast or Famine - Passenger Stock for A's and 121's

[Broithe]

On 9/14/2020 at 9:45 PM, jhb171achill said:

Yes, indeed - SO many rural trains in the 60s were 2 or 3 coaches and a van - sometimes just one.

Trawling two photo collections last week (for a reason!), I found a Limerick - Ballina train with a 121 hauling nothing more than a single laminate and a tin van! Usually, though, that service was 2 or 3 + van.

I was on that service with 2 + van, Loughrea with a solitary coach - the unique one on that line which had no need for a van as they plugged it into the mains at night in Loughrea, having fitted it with storage heaters, and 3 laminates with tin van Rosslare - Limerick.

Just before the railcars arrived in Limerick, I went down to poke about in Ireland’s last city terminus with proper trains. I watched as the Nenagh train was backed into the platform, then the Rosslare one, awaiting their couple of passengers each....both sets were a BR van and just one Craven.

There's a couple of pictures of a 'single' at Ballybrophy on eBay now.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-COLOUR-SLIDE-GM168-1645-LIMERICK-BALLYBROPHY-AT-BALLYBROPHY-2-4-96/402434640232

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-COLOUR-SLIDE-GM168-BALLYBROPHY-LIMERICK-BALLYBROPHY-IRELAND-2-4-96/402434640221

[Irishswissernie]

The Ballybrophy E Bay slides are by Graham Roose. I have acquired a few more of his . Here are some single coach + van ones.

Ennis 24 Feb 1999 & Cloughjordan 11 April 1999

 

 

 

 

[murphaph]

Such pictures clearly show that a mkI GSV model would be even more viable than the mkIId ones. You will never see pictures of a mkIId train like that to my knowledge.

Many people have smaller layouts. It would be ideal to be able to run short but prototypical trains like the above. Loads of Cravens out there waiting for that GSV

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Such pictures clearly show that a mkI GSV model would be even more viable than the mkIId ones. You will never see pictures of a mkIId train like that to my knowledge.

Many people have smaller layouts. It would be ideal to be able to run short but prototypical trains like the above. Loads of Cravens out there waiting for that GSV

 

Very true - and of course no Cravens - either singly or in a train of ten of them - could EVER run WITHOUT a van..... nor could anything else going back to steam days!

[DJ Dangerous]

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

Such pictures clearly show that a mkI GSV model would be even more viable than the mkIId ones. You will never see pictures of a mkIId train like that to my knowledge.

Many people have smaller layouts. It would be ideal to be able to run short but prototypical trains like the above. Loads of Cravens out there waiting for that GSV

 

Although it's possile that the Mk2D EGV's shared a lot with the rest of the Mk2D's, making it easier from a manufacturers point of view.

What bogies do the Irish GSV's run on?

[BSGSV]

2 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Although it's possile that the Mk2D EGV's shared a lot with the rest of the Mk2D's, making it easier from a manufacturers point of view.

What bogies do the Irish GSV's run on?

B5's.

[DJ Dangerous]

2 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

B5's.

The Cravens run on B4's?

[BSGSV]

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

The Cravens run on B4's?

Yes, B4's, but without the dampers generally on UK bogies. The dampers are (or aren't) each end of the bogie beside the springs. Looking at a few photos should make it clear.

[DJ Dangerous]

Wasn't there sume furore here on the forum a few years back, with some folk complaining about the bogies on the Murphy Models Cravens?

[skinner75]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Wasn't there sume furore here on the forum a few years back, with some folk complaining about the bogies on the Murphy Models Cravens?

There was a 'wobble' to them, which can be seen in the vid below. The fix was to add some shims I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqYh8Ei-zUI

[DJ Dangerous]

13 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

There was a 'wobble' to them, which can be seen in the vid below. The fix was to add some shims I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqYh8Ei-zUI

I remember that one alright, but I thought that there was something else a few years earlier about the bogies being incorrect or something.

[Railer]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I remember that one alright, but I thought that there was something else a few years earlier about the bogies being incorrect or something.

It's that the wheel sets are underscale. Some then posted pics of their Cravens fitted with correct scale wheels improving the look of the model but it makes them sit higher than the rest of RTR Irish stock.

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, Railer said:

It's that the wheel sets are underscale. Some then posted pics of their Cravens fitted with correct scale wheels improving the look of the model but it makes them sit higher than the rest of RTR Irish stock.

Thank you, better memory than mine!

[hexagon789]

5 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Yes, B4's, but without the dampers generally on UK bogies. The dampers are (or aren't) each end of the bogie beside the springs. Looking at a few photos should make it clear.

That's an interesting point and one I'd never noticed before!

3 hours ago, skinner75 said:

There was a 'wobble' to them, which can be seen in the vid below. The fix was to add some shims I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqYh8Ei-zUI

Surely that's quite realistic for a Craven hammering it up the Cork Road at eighty?

[StevieB]

2 hours ago, Railer said:

It's that the wheel sets are underscale. Some then posted pics of their Cravens fitted with correct scale wheels improving the look of the model but it makes them sit higher than the rest of RTR Irish stock.

The correct size wheelsets do make the Cravens sit higher but it’s easy enough to lower the ride of the body on the bogies.

Stephen

[Noel]

3 hours ago, skinner75 said:

There was a 'wobble' to them, which can be seen in the vid below. The fix was to add some shims I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqYh8Ei-zUI

Yes, they were RPSI model cravens, not Murphy Models, and yes the wobble was pretty severe. It was a shame because they were gorgeous looking coaches. IMHO it is no use looking great if a model runs poorly. I understand there was a fix released via marks models, a brass shim spring. I made up a plastic card shim for my wobbly RPSI Cravens placed on the boogie pivot, it was partially successful but not entirely. It an easy fix but perhaps unacceptable at that price point for an RTR model to need to be remedied by customers who may not have the tools nor the experience to fix. ARTR (almost RTR) is not the same as RTR.  I managed to pick up some inexpensive MM IE/IR tippex cravens on eBay some years ago with a view to respraying them in RPSI blue and cream to join the RPSI boxed set and make up a rake of 6 or 7 of them, but before that I need to learn how to use a lining pen as there is pretty fine black lining on that livery that is not easily paintable.

My personal view is were are benefiting from an unparalleled time of 'Feast', thanks to MM, IRM, SF, PW, IFM, MIR, JM, SSM, Bachmann, OO, etc.

[Niles]

51 minutes ago, Noel said:

with a view to respraying them in RPSI blue and cream to join the RPSI boxed set and make up a rake of 6 or 7 of them, but before that I need to learn how to use a lining pen as there is pretty fine black lining on that livery that is not easily paintable.

That's why we used stick-on stripe on the real 1508, as @mphoey will attest! 

[Noel]

13 hours ago, murphaph said:

Such pictures clearly show that a mkI GSV model would be even more viable than the mkIId ones. You will never see pictures of a mkIId train like that to my knowledge.

Many people have smaller layouts. It would be ideal to be able to run short but prototypical trains like the above. Loads of Cravens out there waiting for that GSV

 

Yes agree those pics show how CIE/IR prototypical branch trains can be short and can better suit layouts confined by space. The GSV is available RTR as is the Dutch GSV from SF, or one can kit bash a Lima or Bachmann GSV, or stick Bill Bedford brass sides on a donor. It would be amazing to have an IRM GSV to their standards, but the numbers may not stack up, especially as Cravens stocks have dried up to go with them. I suspect most folks who want a GSV probably already have an SF version or two. I've three and two kit bashed ones (Lima BSK Donor + Bachman BCK donor).

Love those pics posted by @Irishswissernie 

[mphoey]

23 hours ago, Niles said:

That's why we used stick-on stripe on the real 1508, as @mphoey will attest! 

and 1508 is the only rpsi volunteer painted craven

[jhb171achill]

On 9/16/2020 at 9:34 PM, Noel said:

I suspect most folks who want a GSV probably already have an SF version or two. I've three and two kit bashed ones (Lima BSK Donor.....

What’s really needed are various “tin vans” for the era of grey 121s and black or green “A”s, or earlier black’n’tan 141s, as the BR vans didn’t exist until early 70s.

[hexagon789]

10 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

What’s really needed are various “tin vans” for the era of grey 121s and black or green “A”s, or earlier black’n’tan 141s, as the BR vans didn’t exist until early 70s.

Iirc they were delivered in batches both alone and with the first batches of AC MkIId stock, during the course of 1972.

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

What’s really needed are various “tin vans” for the era of grey 121s and black or green “A”s, or earlier black’n’tan 141s, as the BR vans didn’t exist until early 70s.

From a manufacturers point of view, would the Tin Vans share anything with any other model? The undercarriage or the ends, for example?

When it comes to the GSV's / BR Vans, I guess that they don't share anything with any Irish stock at all, do they? If not, do they share much with the BR Mk1 BCK's and BSK's that they were based on?

Would it make more sense for a manufacturer doing a run of BR Mk1 brake coaches (hint, hint, Accurascale team) to do the Irish GSV's at the same time?

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

From a manufacturers point of view, would the Tin Vans share anything with any other model? The undercarriage or the ends, for example?

When it comes to the GSV's / BR Vans, I guess that they don't share anything with any Irish stock at all, do they? If not, do they share much with the BR Mk1 BCK's and BSK's that they were based on?

Would it make more sense for a manufacturer doing a run of BR Mk1 brake coaches (hint, hint, Accurascale team) to do the Irish GSV's at the same time?

The tin vans shared a body profile (loading gauge) with the later "laminate" coaches, but nothing much else. To do justice to models, you'd probably have to do almost all of their design as one-offs - certainly, if Murphy / IRM standards were to be attained. Makes them appear less viable, but I've said it before - virtually all 1960s trains, and late 50s diesel trains, are quite simply as unrealistic without one as without a locomotive.

The two BIG missing links in the 1950-75 period are AEC railcars and "tin vans". Many wagons too, but Provincial's cattle wagons, corrugated ("tin?") open wagons, and above all, the ubiquitous "H" vans, solved that through kits. Maybe when Leslie's sold out of them, someone will do RTR ones!

Your idea about a run of British Mk 1s along with CIE's "BR Vans" is an interesting one, indeed; I am sure we'd welcome IRM's thoughts on that type of idea.

One complication is that there was not a single type of "BR Van". The CIE genny vans were made from several different original varieties of British coach - thus, it would almost certainly only be feasible to do one type - but that would be fine.

Generator vans truly are the next stage needed, hopefully.

[Ironroad]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The two BIG missing links in the 1950-75 period are AEC railcars and "tin vans".

Could not agree more, and would be more than happy to see just one version of a genny

[DiveController]

On 9/14/2020 at 7:50 PM, DiveController said:

And therein lies the problem with trying to convert narrow 9"0 or 9'6" english stock in pseudo irish stock. While there are brass etched sides etc that can be used, they're applied to stock that has the wrong end profile.

The Irish stock was unique in that respect, taller with a stocky square and wider end profile.  Some were very noticeable wider at 10'2 or more, wider at the level of the contrail and operating on broad gauge track, wherein lies another modeling problem ...

Well if you were to do 'tin vans' there is not only a market for the hooded luggage van, but also the heating and luggage van and the 4w TPO and the Heuston tool vans for the modernist to tack onto spoils/ PWD  and whatever else it did 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, DiveController said:

Well if you were to do 'tin vans' there is not only a market for the hooded luggage van, but also the heating and luggage van and the 4w TPO and the Heuston tool vans for the modernist to tack onto spoils/ PWD  and whatever else it did 

Exactly!!!!

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, DiveController said:

Well if you were to do 'tin vans' there is not only a market for the hooded luggage van, but also the heating and luggage van and the 4w TPO and the Heuston tool vans for the modernist to tack onto spoils/ PWD  and whatever else it did 

The question is whether there is sufficient demand to sell 3000 of each type @€65 or 1000 of each type @ €195 each to provide a similar return on investment  to the commissioner.

When I introduced the JM Design tin van kits approx 10 were commissioned as rtr models in the €150 price range which covered my costs but did not return a profit.

While there is reasonable interest in the re-run of the heating and luggage van kits only two people have expressed an interest in the TPO/heuston Tool Van.

[DiveController]

I guess I'd go for the 2000 @ €130 each. I'm just putting that out there for a number of reasons.

If you look at other manufacturers offering that pass the 2ft rule and all that stuff, a modest quality product is being offered at not too much less than that price or maybe that much if you have to but it from eBay with shipping and fees etc. Personally, I'd prefer to have two quality products than three mediocre ones for the same price (I'm not referring to JM designs at all in this, you know I have your kits).

IRM has demonstrated that people will pay more for a quality product possibly more than they (or their spouses) would have anticipated in hindsight. Rtr products are always going to appeal to more modelers than kits and scratch built (some love to build and kit bash but more will take an rtr and devote the time to something else). Kit and scratchbuilding can be as costly or costlier than a rtr product even with a higher price point.

Irish outline has become more popular. There will also be more models that require suitable rolling stock than at any time previously especially with after the launch of both the 121 and A classes. Newer modelers will be more comfortable starting to build with rtr to start. Lots of reminiscences on this forum on modelers coming or returning to Irish outline when prompted by an rtr model sitting in a shop window infant of their eyes.

Modelers dislike not being able to complete a train or layout and may be disappointed when rtr rolling stock is not available from a manufacturer that they have themselves supported when purchasing other products (whether a particular manufacturer produces those products or not come down to a mix of economics/goodwill/reputation and I'll not get into that here.

 

There is one thing I don't fully understand. When a manufacturer produces a product, is there one single set of tooling/moulds from which every single model is made? And then the variants in terms of body structure (not livery alone).

Lets take marker lights on say a 141. Most had old style some had modern LED. These were not separately components (like a bag o' bits) if I recall, and would have to be produced from different/additional tooling to the main tooling.

(If) that be the case would there not be lot of similarities between the various 4w LVs, HLVs, TPOs and tool vans? And several liveries for them?

[DJ Dangerous]

The IRM Ballast Plough Vans are a great example of two things.

Firstly, this:

 

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

 

Modelers dislike not being able to complete a train or layout and may be disappointed when rtr rolling stock is not available...

 

1500 Ploughs went on sale two years ago at €60 each, and there are still a couple of hundred unsold.

If Ballast wagons had been re-run a year ago, those Ploughs would be long gone.

When the Ballast wagons do get a new run, there won't be enough Ploughs left to satisfy demand, and it's possible that IRM will be reluctant to run more Plough Vans as they have sold so slowly.

They're two products that require simultaneous availability to please modellers, and just as importantly, to sell the more complimentary / less voluminous of the two.

Cross-merchandising is what we used to call it in the supermarkets, and we'd shift huge quantities of regular-price stock by having it on display close to a related promotional product.

And secondly, that there IS a demand for limited runs of products such as Plough Vans, GSV's, Tin Vans, Brake Vans etc, whether the price point is €60 each or €150 each, but that the timing of the launch is crucial.

I've seen folk grumble about the RPSI models, that locos and coaches aren't available at the same time, or that a wobble is unacceptable. The RPSI is more or less a charity, so moaning about a defect after it's been resolved is pointless, as is expecting them to have a magic money tree and be able launch locos and coaches together.

However, it again illustrates the importance of the timing of the launch, as it does what people instinctively expect / are prepared to buy.

So a Tin Van or GSV launch, even if they were to cost €100 each or €200 each, despite the current rakes out there, would really need to coincide with a passenger stock launch.

Some more Murphy Models Cravens (without the buffer problem of 1509) or some IRM Laminates, would make an ideal companion, to coincide with the launch of a complimentary coach.

Well, fingers crossed that more Ballasts AND Ploughs arrive together, that Laminates and Tin Vans arrive together, that Cravens and GSV's arrive together,and that Project 20 and Brake Vans arrive together!

[murphaph]

On 9/15/2020 at 2:50 AM, DiveController said:

 

Hmm, can't clear the quote for some reason. Please ignore.

The good thing about the ballasts is that they were also used (much more extensively probably) as gypsum wagons, running from Kingscourt to the Irish cement factories several times a week. I'm gonna need two full rakes of those for gypsum trains (empty and laden) and one rake for my ballast ploughs, which are waiting patiently for the re-run lol.

[Wexford70]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

one rake for my ballast ploughs, which are waiting patiently for the re-run lol.

As are mine lol

[Buz]

Hi all

Why do you want more than one plough when all the ballast trains I have seen only have one if they have one at all and no ballast wagons available to go with them HUH!! that doesn't make sense.

Which goes back to my Idea of having a small core of just enough Irish rolling stock permanently available so people can have full trains all be it short ones to go with there brand new Irish locomotive.

While they wait for the all over the place rest of it to catch up with what else is needed / wanted.

Eventually people will stop buying locomotives if they just can't get the rest of the trains to go with them.

I know I will.

That permanent availability is what's needed not a batch of something different and miss matched every year that you can't make a train from and more of them including singles packs not just multi packs.

Why just merry go round stuff what about proper trains, you know the ones that have a locomotive up front and a guards van at the back.

Don't say kits I don't do trains I can never get the wheels square no matter what I do never succeeded in having a working wagon from a kit unless some one else made it.

I even have a botched very expensive S scale WAGR wagon on  a shelf to remind me never to waste more money on wagon kits unless the manufacturer / retailer offers a quality construction service for it.

We cannot all be good at every thing to do with the hobby some are some like me are not.

regards John

 

 

[DJ Dangerous]

24 minutes ago, Buz said:

Why do you want more than one plough when all the ballast trains I have seen only have one if they have one at all and no ballast wagons available to go with them HUH!! that doesn't make sense.

Which goes back to my Idea of having a small core of just enough Irish rolling stock permanently available so people can have full trains all be it short ones to go with there brand new Irish locomotive.

 

Here you go:

 

 

Although, I suspect that murphaph and Wexford70 were lamenting the lack of Ballast wagons, not a lack of Ploughs...

Having permanent availability means a company having enough money sitting in the bank, and enough patience, to wait years for a return on their investment.

An example would be the Murphy Models 071's and 201's, which were still readily available to buy from Marks Models several weeks ago, despite Murphy Models initial investment being made several years back.

Almost nobody catering to a tiny market alone could afford that at this point in time.

[murphaph]

Plenty of images of a long ballast train topped and tailed with a plough, ploughs facing inwards on both ends to be fair.

Short ballast trains often had just one plough.

It's pretty difficult for the likes of IRM to predict the ratio of sales of the ballasts to the ploughs. Different people will build up rakes of different lengths. Many will have bought the ballasts to use as Gypsum wagons. How could anyone know this in advance? The ballasts are due to be re-released in the coming months according to IRM emails.

The market is growing but it's still small. For now it's going to be limited runs of this or that I suspect as a small company can't have cash tied up in stock that may not sell for years.