Irish donkey carts

[Colin R]

Hi Guy, a question or two from a friend in the states

 

Three long-shot questions for the members:  

 

1. Might anyone know of a source for drawings or an illustrated folk culture study of traditional Irish donkey carts? I'm particularly interested in any regional variations between the Cavan & Leitrim Railway region, Kerry, and southern Cork.  My Irish folk culture books and Irish agrarian history books are falling short.

 

2. Do any makers of kits (Anscorton, Langley, others) offer a kit for a cart that matches a specific Irish design?

 

3. Might anyone be able to recommend a published source of the history of cattle-raising in the Irish Midlands or in Kerry?  I'd like to collect some details about the breeds and appearances of cattle that the C&L, the MGWR, and the TDLR hauled, to ensure authentic miniatures.

Thank you in advance for any guidance.

Martin Tuohy

Tinley Park, Illinois, USA

Edited September 19, 2021 by Colin R

[NorthWallDocker]

Thanks for sharing these questions on my behalf, Colin. 

Side note:  My father remembers being surprised by a herd of cattle under the GNR (I) viaduct on Sheriff Street near Upper Oriel Street in Dublin's North Wall neighborhood about 70 years ago.  He was visiting his aunts.  His father, my grandfather, worked on the docks and the Midland Great Western Railway yard about 1904-1913.

Martin

Edited September 19, 2021 by NorthWallDocker
expansion of information

[David Holman]

Am sure I won't the only person interested in answers to this.  I have a 7mm scale donkey and two wheel cart [both Langley Models], but certainly wouldn't claim any authenticity.

[Irishswissernie]

Enlargement from a recently acquired neg. Cavan & Leitrim

 

Also have this one at Listowel. Not so good for the cart but the lady (the one holding the donkey) reminds me of my Mother in Law.

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Irishswissernie

[Galteemore]

I’d approach someone like Johnstown Museum in Wexford re vehicles, and Gurteen Agricultural College or others can advise re breeds and what was historically used locally. In terms of the smaller scales, colour is as important as anything, and painting a generic cart orange and blue will give it an Irish flavour. This is a 3mm scale one I did recently - there will be milk churns in the back as per Ernie’s photo above! My mother was very familiar with these carts as a child in the 50s in N Leitrim and says that the driver always sat perched in front as it made the weight distribution easier for the donkey to manage.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Galteemore

[Ironroad]

16 hours ago, NorthWallDocker said:

Side note:  My father remembers being surprised by a herd of cattle under the GNR (I) viaduct on Sheriff Street near Upper Oriel Street in Dublin's North Wall neighborhood about 70 years ago.  He was visiting his aunts.  His father, my grandfather, worked on the docks and the Midland Great Western Railway yard about 1904-191

Cattle drives from the cattle market on the North Circular Road straight down Portland Row to North Wall occurred every Wednesday,. The pictures below were taken in Phibsborough (between Doyle's corner and St Peter's Church ) and west of Hanlon's  Corners (the cattle market itself was to the left of this picture)

[Mayner]

I remember herds of cattle being driven down the North Circular Road from the Cattle Market to the Docks during the late 60s early 70s.

Although we lived on the Southside I knew the area fairly well as a child and as a teenager My mother's family was from Phibsboro, her sister's family lived in the Artisans Dwellings near the Market and a Great Aunt lived in Ballybough her landlady's husband was a cattle drover. 

My father had a story of a bull breaking loose and causing havoc near the Five Lamps during the early 60s.

It looks like there was a serious proposal to re-locate the market to the North Wall during the early 1930s with the LMS offering to build a covered cattle market and lairage in the Holyhead Yard. The main motivation appears to be that the cattle would be exported in better condition by being fed and rested having been railed directly to the port, than driven from Cabra Bank or Liffey Junction to the Market then driven the two miles to the port. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/1932-05-04/8/. The LMS would of course ship the cattle to Holyhead with the nice long rail journey on the other side!

[WRENNEIRE]

Britains did a nice Cart and Horse in their Lilliput World range
Ref LV 606
Mine is missing the drover

 

[minister_for_hardship]

Many were modified with pneumatic tyres and axles from scrapped cars when the original wheels fell apart or if a smoother ride was needed.

Note the creel and canvas for presumably carrying calves or sheep as it appears to be a mart scene. The sides are likely to be removable.

A usual colour was red, or the faded red turned orange of red lead paint.

Edited September 20, 2021 by minister_for_hardship

[seagoebox]

GS&WR/ GSR Class 37/ C7 4-4-2T no 318 Albert Quay, 19th August 1949

[Ironroad]

10 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Britains did a nice Cart and Horse in their Lilliput World range
Ref LV 606
Mine is missing the drover

 

That resembles the high sided horse drawn carts I remember (as a kid) carrying produce from Nth Co Dublin coming in along Dorset St. heading for the city markets in Mary's Lane, As I recall they were painted red (very faded)

[Billycan]

Some notes on the convoys from North County Dublin to the City Markets.  The cars are a clue to the date.

One of the enduring stories of my childhood is of the men who ‘went the road’ to market.  Everything was done by horse. From working the land with horse and spade to taking the produce to Dublin market by horse and cart.  The cart was loaded in the evening and you set off for market before midnight walking with your horse to Dublin.  It took 4½ hours to Dublin – a horse could pull 1 ton and a pony could pull ½ ton.  Upon arrival at the market you queued up and waited for opening at 7:00am. 

There were often convoys of carts arriving together and fierce competition for a place in the queue as there were distinct advantages to being early and your produce ‘first up’.  Many of the vegetables where bunched in dozens and multiples of 12 and could be placed loose in the cart.  But many softer vegetables like lettuce had to be packed into boxes or containers to prevent crushing or damage.  This was a huge problem.  There was no plastic (it had not been invented yet); cardboard boxes could not even be conceived.  Boxes were made of wood and expensive, so you looked to the docks and fruit importers for their empty boxes.  (Martin Ruigrok, (2011) Dublin Market Tokens, NSI Occasional Paper No 51, p64-73)

 

[jhb171achill]

22 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

 

A usual colour was red, or the faded red turned orange of red lead paint.

Yes, that’s worth emphasising - red lead instead of paint; cheaper and way more long-lasting. Orangey-red when new but faded to a dull salmony-pink shade, and remaining that way as it lasted a lifetime. 

[Galteemore]

That makes perfect sense. Salmon pink…. in the 70s, we had an old hedge trimmer stored in the long byre -  which had probably travelled to Dromahair on the SLNC when new - and every so often when the turf piled over it reached a certain level, you’d see those pink wheels ! 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Galteemore

[Broithe]

The liveries of donkey carts.

 

Let us be grateful that few rivets are on view...

 

[Galteemore]

If you get the livery of the cart right, it at least says ‘Ireland’ in a way that scale 4’ gauge track decidedly does not!  

Edited September 21, 2021 by Galteemore

[Arran]

On 19/9/2021 at 8:19 PM, Irishswissernie said:

Enlargement from a recently acquired neg. Cavan & Leitrim

 

Also have this one at Listowel. Not so good for the cart but the lady (the one holding the donkey) reminds me of my Mother in Law.

 

All she needs is a light saber!!

 

Regards Arran 

 

 

[Andy Cundick]

Proper old fashioned wood primer was pink Craftmaster Paints still do it and they describe it as extremely pink primer which i can vouch having just built an AA box out by my workshop a seven foot high box in pink  definitely stands out(fortunately its now in a more subdued black with yellow highlights).Incidentally thats why threshing   machines are always seen  in pink as the manufacturers charged extra for the finishing coats.Andy.   

[Johnny B. Good]

On 19/9/2021 at 2:12 PM, Colin R said:

Hi Guy, a question or two from a friend in the states

 

Three long-shot questions for the members:  

 

1. Might anyone know of a source for drawings or an illustrated folk culture study of traditional Irish donkey carts? I'm particularly interested in any regional variations between the Cavan & Leitrim Railway region, Kerry, and southern Cork.  My Irish folk culture books and Irish agrarian history books are falling short.

 

2. Do any makers of kits (Anscorton, Langley, others) offer a kit for a cart that matches a specific Irish design?

 

3. Might anyone be able to recommend a published source of the history of cattle-raising in the Irish Midlands or in Kerry?  I'd like to collect some details about the breeds and appearances of cattle that the C&L, the MGWR, and the TDLR hauled, to ensure authentic miniatures.

Thank you in advance for any guidance.

Martin Tuohy

Tinley Park, Illinois, USA

I don’t know if you’re still looking for answers to these (as it was 2021) but if you are I may have some info for you that might help. 
Johnny

Edited March 29, 2023 by Johnny B. Good

[Johnny B. Good]

On 19/9/2021 at 2:12 PM, Colin R said:

Hi Guy, a question or two from a friend in the states

 

Three long-shot questions for the members:  

 

1. Might anyone know of a source for drawings or an illustrated folk culture study of traditional Irish donkey carts? I'm particularly interested in any regional variations between the Cavan & Leitrim Railway region, Kerry, and southern Cork.  My Irish folk culture books and Irish agrarian history books are falling short.

 

2. Do any makers of kits (Anscorton, Langley, others) offer a kit for a cart that matches a specific Irish design?

 

3. Might anyone be able to recommend a published source of the history of cattle-raising in the Irish Midlands or in Kerry?  I'd like to collect some details about the breeds and appearances of cattle that the C&L, the MGWR, and the TDLR hauled, to ensure authentic miniatures.

Thank you in advance for any guidance.

Martin Tuohy

Tinley Park, Illinois, USA

Hi Colin and Martin,

I’ve taken a long time to try and respond and I apologize but there was one book I had that I just couldn’t find until yesterday and I needed it for this. 
So here are a bunch of photos I’ve collected over time because I’ve been interested in this for modeling purposes too. I tried to get them in some kind of coherent order for you but didn’t quite make is  

But as you can see it looks like there was a basic flat platform with 2 uniquely carved beams. But then it looks like you could add side boards and or a back board as well as needed it. 
My layout is in Kerry and there are different breeds of cows but the one most unique to Kerry are...Kerry Cattle (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerry_cattle) There are Holsteins and all that but for my cattle drive I just used black cows because Kerry Cattle are black.
I’ve used Langley models for a cart they have one that if you leave the front board off is pretty close to the Irish version. I’d like to try that blue one below from dart castings. Just have to modify the beams. The last one from Shipyard I just found I’ve never heard of them before but again it looks pretty close with the front removed. 
l hope these pics, as late as they are, help. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Johnny B. Good

[Flying Snail]

Thats a very thorough response from Johnny B. Good with some great reference photos. I'll only add this for anyone interested in specific regions/localities, and specific elements of Irish life from times past.

The National Library has an extensive collection of photographs from around the country dating from the 1840s on: https://www.nli.ie/collections/our-collections/photographs

Follow the link above and then click on their online catalogue to see digitised photos. You'll find plenty of carts and cattle in pictures of fair days (most towns had one), and indeed street scenes, buildings etc. There's also railways etc. The archive can be browsed by year, location, subject-matter, photographer etc. It really is an excellent resource for this type of project

Edited March 29, 2023 by Flying Snail

[Westcorkrailway]

Regardless of how long ago the thread was. I always find I keep coming back to these threads for Information. A google search of a question the first result will often come up as being answered on here

[NorthWallDocker]

Wow, thank you.  Much to learn, and grateful for the learning.

[David Holman]

Fantastic post!

[jhb171achill]

A fantastic and highly informative thread. I'll be looking for a couple of these things laden with turf on my own layout. Little details like these carts really make a scene in a rural area, like a little grey Fordson tractor (who remembers them?) or a 1960s Massey 135............. plus the inevitable Morris Traveller (I have one of those as well).

Talking of "travellers", and without starting ma predictable conversation, a common childhood memory was of driving on holiday to the west and seeing the old horse-drawn vans they lived in alongside country roads, along with the above carts or a batterd old Commer van. Tarpaulins aganist hedges for the men to sleep under, and washing all over the hedge. I wonder is there any sort of horse drawn vehicle which could be made to look like one of those - I had considered having a traveller encampment near Castletown West station once I get around to the scenic part of it!

[leslie10646]

Little details like these carts really make a scene in a rural area, like a little grey Fordson tractor (who remembers them?)

Me, now that you ask. When I was fourteen or so. My cousin sold it to a collector, so it may still appear at "events".

[minister_for_hardship]

The little grey Fergie was the death knell for farm horses and donkeys though. 

[the Bandon tank]

I remember the little gray Massey Ferguson, burnt my hand on the exhaust of one once when bringing in hay on a uncles farm. Oxford Diecast do a nice little model of one in 1:76 scale.

[Andy Cundick]

The little grey Fergies seem to have got everywhere as well as their successor the red Massey 35 the only place they didn't seem to predominate was around Letterkenny were you used to see a lot of the Fordson Dextas .Grey Fordsons were much older beasts,originally built i Dearborn then Cork until production was moved to Dagenham in 1932 appearing in Blue with orange wheels(traditional Essex cart colours apparently) though my one is in RAF blue grey being an ex RAF tractor,Andy

[Flying Snail]

Ah, the Fordson Dexta: bomb proof! My grandfather's Dexta was still working away on the family farm in the Slieve Blooms until not too long ago (it's still there, just not sure if its retired yet)

Edited March 30, 2023 by Flying Snail

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, Flying Snail said:

Ah, the Fordson Dexta: bomb proof! My grandfather's Dexta was still working away on the family farm in the Slieve Blooms until not too long ago (it's still there, just not sure if its retired yet)

I went to the Knock (Tipp) tractor run in November, no sign of one in my photos, but do let me know if it is likely to venture out to on in the future.

[minister_for_hardship]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

A fantastic and highly informative thread. I'll be looking for a couple of these things laden with turf on my own layout. Little details like these carts really make a scene in a rural area, like a little grey Fordson tractor (who remembers them?) or a 1960s Massey 135............. plus the inevitable Morris Traveller (I have one of those as well).

Talking of "travellers", and without starting ma predictable conversation, a common childhood memory was of driving on holiday to the west and seeing the old horse-drawn vans they lived in alongside country roads, along with the above carts or a batterd old Commer van. Tarpaulins aganist hedges for the men to sleep under, and washing all over the hedge. I wonder is there any sort of horse drawn vehicle which could be made to look like one of those - I had considered having a traveller encampment near Castletown West station once I get around to the scenic part of it!

There was a brief revival of the arc roofed Traveller caravan in the 70s or 80s, Slatterys used hire them out to tourists.

[Broithe]

There's still a few places doing them now. E.g., http://www.horsedrawncaravans.com/

We had one in Galway around 1967/8, from a bloke called Michael Og Fahy, near Corrandulla. The horse was called Peaches and she was a remarkably placid thing. One night, we parked up near the shore of Lough Corrib and there was just nothing to tie the long rope to, so that she had scope to graze and wander about. My father decided that it would be OK to tie her to the caravan itself, so that she didn't just wander off.

That would have been OK, if she hadn't got the urge to investigate the lake at 2am and pull the caravan in behind her...

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Broithe

[Galteemore]

Grey Fergies even graced the SLNC……although this isn’t the best place to pose for a photo…..

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Galteemore

[Johnny B. Good]

Just found another interesting photo from Ernie’s archive collection (I hope you don’t mind if so please just delete). But it’s a great side view of a cart and it’s loading/unloading a train!!

 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Johnny B. Good