What do you want from 3D printing?

[Westcorkrailway]

hello all

I was wondering as a whole. What the Irish modelling scene would want from the 3D printing scene. I think this thread is a bit overdue as I’ve had 3 people come to me recently asking what they would think would be a decent mix between popularity and not easy to get any other way. 
 

I’ve always taken the attitude that 3D modelling Has some fine picks for actual sellable product. GSWR no.90 was perfect as it was easy to make, small, had an obvious choice for donor chassis and was not In kit form yet. 
 

Of course there are many locos that could borrow British chassis and be passed off as Irish. Maebh, J15, BCDR 4-4-2s ect. I wonder if these could too be improved 
 

im not sure if the demand is there for a FULL RTR version but a 3D print CC1 might be A way to go. With a donor chassis found of course. (It would be easier then a bandon tank to find a chassis for *sigh*) im actually suprised Silverfox has not sold a resin kit for this.

 

As we have seen from the likes of KMCE and JM design. 3D printed wagons are looking quite decent. coaches are also a good starting point. There is a well known drought in pre-Craven coaches. I wonder would old GSWR coaches be of any use to anyone? 

 

 Something that has me thinking recently is the possibility of 3D printing Irish scenics. We all know that there is an Irish footbridge in the works at the moment courtousy of @RobertRocheand the IRM team. Who hopefully will update us on this project as it develops.

 

what I was wondering however, is 3D printing station platforms, buildings, water towers, and platforms. Aren’t many Irish platforms have a very simular structure to them, and would be very easy to make different sections ect.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

40 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I was wondering as a whole. What the Irish modelling scene would want from the 3D printing scene. I think this thread is a bit overdue as I’ve had 3 people come to me recently asking what they would think would be a decent mix between popularity and not easy to get any other way. 

im not sure if the demand is there for a FULL RTR version but a 3D print CC1 might be A way to go. With a donor chassis found of course. (It would be easier then a bandon tank to find a chassis for *sigh*) im actually suprised Silverfox has not sold a resin kit for this.

As we have seen from the likes of KMCE and JM design. 3D printed wagons are looking quite decent. coaches are also a good starting point. There is a well known drought in pre-Craven coaches. I wonder would old GSWR coaches be of any use to anyone? 

Something that has me thinking recently is the possibility of 3D printing Irish scenics. We all know that there is an Irish footbridge in the works at the moment courtousy of @RobertRocheand the IRM team. Who hopefully will update us on this project as it develops.

what I was wondering however, is 3D printing station platforms, buildings, water towers, and platforms. 

At the risk of starting an interminable wish list, to which I'd be well able to contribute wishes of my own, I have four of the KMCE wagons and am delighted with them; also I have a guard's van from JM design. In both cases I am highly impressed with the quality of the 3D printing - it's certainly come on in major leaps and bounds from the extremely crude early 3D models.

Quite a few of the things you mention above - indigenous buildings, GSWR coaches, etc., would fill major gaps - but you ask about interest. I have often had conversations with people who would say "if a manufacturer made a model of X, I would buy four..."

The issue, I think, is whether someone is prepared to put the work into making a print of any one thing - be it a loco body, coach, wagon or structure, with a potential market of maybe ten or twenty buyers, or even less for some more specific or specialised things. The KMCE wagons are something I might add to, but in single figures rather than, say, twenty of them - and certainly not because of limited satisfaction with them - more so limited space! A signal cabin, platform, or other structure - each buyer will want just one, or maybe two. Locos, probably likewise. Coaches and wagons will sell more than one to a number of buyers.

(Count me in for GSWR bogies!)

 

Maybe if someone with the technological skills, equipment, and who is prepared to go ahead with such a project was to simply request PMs from people who would be genuinely, and seriously interested in buying a 3D print of some favourite thing, a pattern might emerge. Like many here, I would have maybe half a dozen items that if available to a high standard, I would buy from someone who was prepared to make them up. I would do it myself if I had the skills and equipment.

Edited February 14, 2022 by jhb171achill

[murphaph]

I'm a big fan of the 3d printing. Definitely going to get into it as time permits but I would keep my powder dry on anything that just might be manufactured RTR and I believe we are on the cusp of a whole new era in availability of older Irish RTR rolling stock from IRM. The guys are young and have proven themselves already and if we look at Accurascale we see a readiness to go way back in time. I intend to use 3d to create stuff that I think will unlikely ever be released RTR, mostly track work. I hope that IRM can relieve me of the task of building a lot of kits and so on and I can spend my time on the layout and details that will never be available to buy. I have been "burned" once in that I bought a a dozen Lima mk2b's but I will probably never convert them now as it's extremely likely that IRM will produce the mk2b IR/IE stock given the NIR announcement (which I had also planned to do). This saves literally months of modelling time to work on something else...and there's always going to be something else. 

[Westcorkrailway]

40 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

At the risk of starting an interminable wish list, to which I'd be well able to contribute wishes of my own, I have four of the KMCE wagons and am delighted with them; also I have a guard's van from JM design. In both cases I am highly impressed with the quality of the 3D printing - it's certainly come on in major leaps and bounds from the extremely crude early 3D models.

Quite a few of the things you mention above - indigenous buildings, GSWR coaches, etc., would fill major gaps - but you ask about interest. I have often had conversations with people who would say "if a manufacturer made a model of X, I would buy four..."

The issue, I think, is whether someone is prepared to put the work into making a print of any one thing - be it a loco body, coach, wagon or structure, with a potential market of maybe ten or twenty buyers, or even less for some more specific or specialised things. The KMCE wagons are something I might add to, but in single figures rather than, say, twenty of them - and certainly not because of limited satisfaction with them - more so limited space! A signal cabin, platform, or other structure - each buyer will want just one, or maybe two. Locos, probably likewise. Coaches and wagons will sell more than one to a number of buyers.

(Count me in for GSWR bogies!)

 

Maybe if someone with the technological skills, equipment, and who is prepared to go ahead with such a project was to simply request PMs from people who would be genuinely, and seriously interested in buying a 3D print of some favourite thing, a pattern might emerge. Like many here, I would have maybe half a dozen items that if available to a high standard, I would buy from someone who was prepared to make them up. I would do it myself if I had the skills and equipment.

I know at the moment that GSWR no. 90 has sold about +70 all around the world. And there is an option for 7mm scale. As all it takes is adjusting the sizes of the file.

 

I think an “Irish Platform” model would be a pretty good addition. It could be done cheaply enough and the finish would be ok 

 

19 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I'm a big fan of the 3d printing. Definitely going to get into it as time permits but I would keep my powder dry on anything that just might be manufactured RTR and I believe we are on the cusp of a whole new era in availability of older Irish RTR rolling stock from IRM. The guys are young and have proven themselves already and if we look at Accurascale we see a readiness to go way back in time. I intend to use 3d to create stuff that I think will unlikely ever be released RTR, mostly track work. I hope that IRM can relieve me of the task of building a lot of kits and so on and I can spend my time on the layout and details that will never be available to buy. I have been "burned" once in that I bought a a dozen Lima mk2b's but I will probably never convert them now as it's extremely likely that IRM will produce the mk2b IR/IE stock given the NIR announcement (which I had also planned to do). This saves literally months of modelling time to work on something else...and there's always going to be something else. 

That’s what I set up this forum to establish. I don’t want to make something that will be made in RTR just down the road. But popular enough to sell a fair few (like the Bulleid turfburner CC1) 

[Noel]

Interesting, personally ex-GSWR bogie coaching stock for sure. I suspect the largest gap in the market today may be high quality RTR beet wagons single and double that I suspect would sell in volumn, for bogie stock the ammonia's might sell as they go with A class well. Personally beet wagons and CIE H vans would suit my era, but not sure if the younger demographic would buy much.  The stock people saw and heard running when they were 10yo seems to be the most in demand, hence the interest in modern era (ie post 1974, especially 1980s and 1990s). We've never had it so good with fine RTR models augmented by kits. GSWR six wheelers might lend them selves to 3D but very tricky to do a decent paint job due to the eau-de-nil precision lining required (eg the quiet man coaches) for OO works J15s and SSM J15s out there. Owen O'Neil over on FB group supplied me with some superb 3D letter boxes and P&T phone boxes, there may also be an Irish Signal box in the queue. 3D seems the future for non mainstream models. Tell you what, 3D replacement sides for Hornby  mk3 donors to make a mk3 EGV would float my boat and save me a lot of plastic sculpting, cutting, filling and filing. Alternatively replacement sides for 3017 exBR RPSI GSV (bachmann BCK donor), and stick on roof vents could be of interest to folks who operate RPSI model trains.

[Peter]

N gauge Irish rolling stock please. That would be unreal. 

I think it would open up the hobby to more people who want to model Irish railways but don't have the space for a 00 gauge layout. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Peter
extra info

[Westcorkrailway]

Actually, who would take a mark 4 DVT. Much harder to 3d print….but I have seen struggles trying to get a somewhat accurate one 

[murphaph]

Good call on N gauge actually. Far less likely to see any N gauge RTR in the near future, if at all.

[Kevin Sweeney]

Can I second Peter's proposal, N gauge Irish rolling stock.

[Noel]

23 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Actually, who would take a mark 4 DVT. Much harder to 3d print….but I have seen struggles trying to get a somewhat accurate one 

Definitely yes, despite being outside my era but mk4 sets are the trains I travel on most frequently nowadays (ie to Cork and Kerry as far as Mallow). Have mk4 coaches but no DVT yet, was set to start carving up a BR donor, but its a lot of work. Have a green/silver 222 to haul them. Those compound curves and dimples are tricky to replicate using a file and filler. I had assumed it was just a matter of time before AS produced either IR Mk4 sets or IR 22k sets.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Noel

[Westcorkrailway]

38 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Good call on N gauge actually. Far less likely to see any N gauge RTR in the near future, if at all.

The thing with N gauge, is that 00 gauge model can easily be scaled down and printed out. I just don’t think a 3D printer could do a very good N gauge model due to the sizes involved for the comparatively big nozel

[Andy Cundick]

One issue with 3d printing is the quality which is highly variable,there is some truly dreadful prints out there as well as some very good ones.Andy

[Westcorkrailway]

19 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

One issue with 3d printing is the quality which is highly variable,there is some truly dreadful prints out there as well as some very good ones.Andy

I have seen somone in here, getting a fairly rough Clayton railcar. That they were able to salvage but the delivered condition was fairly bad (I beleive it was a shapeways product)

 

however I believe that the models being provided here are of a decent enough quality for most people, as I’m sure you can make your own opinions on by looking at the below images 

 

And demonstrated here is a 7mm model, which was made by simply upping the print size 

[murphaph]

44 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

The thing with N gauge, is that 00 gauge model can easily be scaled down and printed out. I just don’t think a 3D printer could do a very good N gauge model due to the sizes involved for the comparatively big nozel

On the other hand, N gauge models are "small" so resin printing with its higher resolution could be a viable option?

[Westcorkrailway]

1 minute ago, murphaph said:

On the other hand, N gauge models are "small" so resin printing with its higher resolution could be a viable option?

It might be worth a shot to try print out 90 in N Gauge and see what comes out. Does anyone make an N gauge terrier? 
 

and more importantly would anyone in this forum be interested in an N gauge no.90?

[KMCE]

42 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

getting a fairly rough Clayton railcar

That would be me.  The model as arrived was very rough & the dilemma was whether to sand like hell, and lose the detail, or heavy primer & hope for the best - I went for the latter, and have a passable model.

 

With respect to N-Gauge printing, I have printed out quite a few for customers with good quality results using resin printing.  These were printed with basic settings of 50micron layers.  I may try again with finer settings, perhaps 35microns to see would it improve fidelity.

More info in the Manufacturers Section

[Peter]

I'd be interested in an N gauge no. 90. Your model above is very nice. I'll take anything Irish in N gauge. 

A quick Google search tells me that Dapol make N gauge terriers. 

I hadn't considered that the nozzles on 3d printers might be too small to print N gauge. 

[Westcorkrailway]

5 minutes ago, Peter said:

I'd be interested in an N gauge no. 90. Your model above is very nice. I'll take anything Irish in N gauge. 

A quick Google search tells me that Dapol make N gauge terriers. 

I hadn't considered that the nozzles on 3d printers might be too small to print N gauge. 

Looks like you could have 90 and a rake of DWWR vans to go with it!

[jhb171achill]

7 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Looks like you could have 90 and a rake of DWWR vans to go with it!

Thing is, for a West Cork layout, right until closure there were still quite a few real old antique short-wheelbase wagons on the system; the vans especially not at all unlike KMCE's DWWR ones - they probably dated back to the Cork & Bandon Railway! So if I was modelling West Cork, I think I'd be placing a significant order for the KMCE ones. Plus, of course, a pile of Provincial Wagons' stuff.

[RobertRoche]

3D printing is useful for producing models in low volumes I think. I have my 10 beet wagons for the 40 foot flats which came out ok on a filament printer. I think resin really is the way to go for models railways though, see below an example milk tank that I printed in resin (left) and filament (right) - the quality difference is stark (not exactly the same models).

I was going to model the rawie buffer stop - and then IRM came out with theirs. Likewise I intended to model the spoil containers, just as IRM made that announcement. I have put off modelling the MK4 DVT as it is a difficult one geometry-wise, but as soon as I get to it IRM will probably come out with a RTR version!

I think the scenery items are where 3D printing has some really good potential. My to-do list is long and I'm not doing any modelling at the moment, but the below items show what can be achieved. I'm not sure how these or other parts would print in N scale, but I imagine an N gauge loco would be more than passable if printed with resin.

Having a printer at home can be an invaluable asset if you are prepared to take some time to either find models or design them yourself. The 3 triangular brackets at the bottom of the above picture are O gauge telephone pole steps. I modelled these and printed over 150 for use on the WMRC Little Siddington layout, costing cents in comparison to the Dapol telephone pole kits that would otherwise have been required.

[David Holman]

3D printing has much to commend it in many areas, as we are seeing. However, would argue it is not yet the answer to everything, so would emphasise to keep requests to what works and is worthwhile.

 Arguable that platform walls are easy enough to make from card or plastic, so why not save your money for something more challenging to make?

 Steam loco bodies maybe? As with etched kits, once drawn in one scale, they are fairly easy to do in a different one, but beware because there may not be enough room for a chassis  and mechanism, while you will also need plenty of weight over the driving wheels if the model is going to perform.

 A 3D print is never going to be ready to run, because it will need wheels, motor, couplings etc etc. so will certainly make some demands of your modelling skills, which is great because it is all about self improvement. The moral is therefore think about what you can do now and what you'd like to see available that matches tbhis. There are already thousands of unmade kits around already without adding 3D prints to the collection.

 Robert's stuff, above, seems exactly what is wanted. Everything in the picture might appear to be simple, but try making a chair from scratch, let alone a dozen of them!

 Lovely stuff.

Edited February 14, 2022 by David Holman

[Mike 84C]

My two cents worth would be for steam era water columns. Irish period ones are just that little bit different to English railway columns. And they seem to have lasted well into the diesel age. Indeed their is one hiding in some big bushes at Dunmanway station on The CB&SC. Pity it will never be needed!

[Mayner]

As a manufacturer I don't see 3D printing as a viable proposition for low volume manufacture of rtr coaching stock or locos price point would have to be set 2-3 higher than a similar plastic injection model, this year will largely test whether rtr wagons are viable or not.

Desktop printers for less than €1,000 are not up to it for commercial low volume production, your potentially looking at an investment of €60-70,000 for a suitable full size printer set up(printer, hazardous substance and temperature controls) for low volume manufacture of small scale railway models in a resin with similar characteristics to injection molded plastic

The main challenge in volume production is in finding a printing bureau with the capability to produce high quality prints (in a suitable resin) or resin castings that is prepared to under take low volume production of small scale models that does not charge an arm and a leg. Some bureau charge a higher unit rate on larger orders (above 20 units) because of the labour intensive nature of the clean up process and high reject rate (breakages) with highly detailed small scale models.

I am not convinced that there is sufficient demand out to produce detail components or coach, loco or wagon kits while demand for decorated rtr wagons has been reasonable, there has been very little demand for models in kit or CKD form.

Designing 3D models (3D Modelling) involves a special skill set and access to software which does not exactly come cheap, although I am an experienced draftsperson and 2D designer I struggle to get my head round 3D Modelling and had to farm out the design of the 3D wagons to a professional 3D modeller.

A home printer, iMaterialise or possibly Shapeways is probably the best option for producing one off models, though Shapeways charge an an arm and a leg for a resin print.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

………A home printer, iMaterialise or possibly Shapeways is probably the best option for producing one off models, though Shapeways charge an an arm and a leg for a resin print.

….and they’re (nowadays) pretty crude, from what I see…..

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

….and they’re (nowadays) pretty crude, from what I see…..

I am not sure whether you mean home printers, imateriaiize Shapeways or all 3.

Ken's DWWR wagons are produced on a readily available "Anycubic" SLA resin printer .

imaterialise have a reputation of producing high quality prints including railway models.

https://i.materialise.com/en/shop/item/basel-b4-1416-1506-unterteil?category=scale-models&subcategory=&sortBy=interesting&pageNumber=6&pageSize=18&index=22

With Shapeways quality of finish depends on the material selected and the application. their SLA reins should be capable of producing a similar standard of detail and surface finish to an injection molded model but at a significantly higher cost compared to their other materials.https://www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/39838-introducing-three-tough-sla-plastic-materials.html

The main reason most 4mm and larger railway models on the Shapeways site are only available in their "White Natural Plastic"  plastic is to keep the price down while some people may pay over $61 for a MGWR coach body shell its doubtful that many people would be prepared to pay more than that amount for an SLA print of the model.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/TJEMWN8JF/0-64-mgwr-6w-3rd-class-coach?optionId=96464128&li=marketplace

imaterialise looks like a better option than Shapeways for someone starting out in 3D modelling or who is unable to afford or justify the cost of buying, maintaining and running a SLA printer  

[Killian Keane]

Ive created models and sold them via shapeways before and even their highest quality materials leave a lot to be desired, especially when compared with home resin printers, Ive invested in an Elegoo Mars Pro and its results are similar to those shown by Robert Roche and KMCE above which speak for themselves. I maintain brass/nickel silver are best, for loco chassis at least which is why I'm looking at producing kits which incorporate both, for things like wagons however (I have some West Clare opens and flats on the long finger) Ive found printed works for everything except wheels and couplings

[BosKonay]

We've SLA printed items in the past, primarily as a 'test print' to check details of a model. The last locomotive we so printed, printing out about 1/3 of the total parts the final model would have, cost £3,900 for ONE locomotive. (and it had to be hand assembled, obviously)

[Peter]

1 hour ago, BosKonay said:

We've SLA printed items in the past, primarily as a 'test print' to check details of a model. The last locomotive we so printed, printing out about 1/3 of the total parts the final model would have, cost £3,900 for ONE locomotive. (and it had to be hand assembled, obviously)

Bargain 

When you factor in Shapeway's VAT, shipping and processing costs it works out nearly double the price of the model. I guess 3d printing is of the biggest benefit to someone who owns a printer, and has the skills to create 3d models. They can make single models.

I'm curious to know what the Minimum Order Quantity is of a RTR model to make it economically viable? And the minimum run of 3d printed models to be viable. 

1 hour ago, BosKonay said:

We've SLA printed items in the past, primarily as a 'test print' to check details of a model. The last locomotive we so printed, printing out about 1/3 of the total parts the final model would have, cost £3,900 for ONE locomotive. (and it had to be hand assembled, obviously)

Would IRM make one RTR model in n gauge and everyone on the forum agrees to buy it? 

[BosKonay]

2 hours ago, Peter said:

Bargain 

When you factor in Shapeway's VAT, shipping and processing costs it works out nearly double the price of the model. I guess 3d printing is of the biggest benefit to someone who owns a printer, and has the skills to create 3d models. They can make single models.

I'm curious to know what the Minimum Order Quantity is of a RTR model to make it economically viable? And the minimum run of 3d printed models to be viable. 

Would IRM make one RTR model in n gauge and everyone on the forum agrees to buy it? 

1000 units is the minimum full stop for RTR

[DJ Dangerous]

58 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

1000 units is the minimum full stop for RTR

Sure that would barely be enough for WRENNEIRE, never mind everybody else.

[Sean]

have been wanting the shapeways n stuff for ages but the high costs for what you actually get have always put me off....

 

what do i want from 3d printing? well, the ability to purchase files of models and print out as many copies as i would like, just like we do with scalescenes stuff now. otherwise its no different to buying brass or resin kits, to me at least quality aside.

[Westcorkrailway]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

have been wanting the shapeways n stuff for ages but the high costs for what you actually get have always put me off....

 

what do i want from 3d printing? well, the ability to purchase files of models and print out as many copies as i would like, just like we do with scalescenes stuff now. otherwise its no different to buying brass or resin kits, to me at least quality aside.

Great idea in theory. In practice, that one guy will buy it and share the 3D model to whoever wants it. Or even print out the model and sell the finished product. Hence why such you don’t see it too often.

[Robert Shrives]

Having not enough grey cells left to master much I find the "black magic" of creating 3D CAD and getting things printed is far beyond my grasp... Thus I have only bought 3D models - Shapeways and from friends on Facebook and RM Web plus from the experts on here.   I have displayed models in 2 to G1 at Warley show to encourage others but I do add  the caution that when all factors applied there will be little difference to ready to plonk or ready to run. However the big difference is that small run or unique models can be created and often the "shrink to fit ray gun"  can be used to change scales.  

Currently in 3mm scale resin prints to the quality of the gas bottles and chairs are being produced in the cottage industry sector with bodies around the £60 and a twin bogie all wheels powered chassis around £100.  When all painted not much change from £175, which is the same price of a Kato 800 IEP in N gauge  or a smaller 4mm steam loco.   So not cheap but different.  

Those with the time, skills and the "gear" can now with a resin printer outstrip Shapeways best efforts in every way.  With several design share forums around for a fee quite a lot can be had.  

I look forward to the Trekie time when your dinner can be generated... Even now sugars with long strings of molecules can be printed and I have seen some amazing icing decorations printed.   Along with metal carrying filaments so a metal item can be printed we have come  along way but for the rough and tumble of rtr/ real commercial world where models are let out into the wild and some poor ones have a hard life with all the knocks that can mean. Printed production models are on the cusp, perhaps a few years down the road, but clearly piracy of products will be a problem for the industry and legal profession to deal with..          

I guess one biggest benefit is the repeatability of printing over hand produced items if a plastic moulding is not going to happen - 3D  Irish concrete sleeper units perhaps for near ready to lay flexible track.

Robert  

[Georgeconna]

Saw this stuff on Sunday in Camden. Looks very impressive. Usual 3D lines but you could certainly work on them to improve.

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Yer man Owen is very good. He is currently working on a full macmine junction station kit, Chetwynd viaduct kit, and even some GSR 6 wheel/Short bogey design….