Possible Warning about Murphy Models Counterfeit Goods

[WRENNEIRE]

On the subject of Murphys Models I was speaking with Paddy this afternoon
He is very upset with some of his models that are appearing on eBay etc and 
coming from China
These locos are stolen property!
He has been in touch with the authorities there and they are commencing an investigation
If anyone is found to have bought one of these stolen items it is his intention to have them
prosecuted for handling stolen property
Caveat Emptor, (pass Latin 1972 St Declans CBS Cabra!)

 

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

17 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

On the subject of Murphys Models I was speaking with Paddy this afternoon
He is very upset with some of his models that are appearing on eBay etc and 
coming from China
These locos are stolen property!
He has been in touch with the authorities there and they are commencing an investigation
If anyone is found to have bought one of these stolen items it is his intention to have them
prosecuted for handling stolen property
Caveat Emptor, (pass Latin 1972 St Declans CBS Cabra!)

 

I bet he's upset, I hope it doesn't damage his association with his Chinese manufacturer!

[DiveController]

3 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

On the subject of Murphys Models I was speaking with Paddy this afternoon
He is very upset with some of his models that are appearing on eBay etc and 
coming from China
These locos are stolen property!
He has been in touch with the authorities there and they are commencing an investigation
If anyone is found to have bought one of these stolen items it is his intention to have them
prosecuted for handling stolen property
Caveat Emptor, (pass Latin 1972 St Declans CBS Cabra!)

 

So these have been stolen from the batch of 141/181 locos in China prior to dispatch to Ireland, or are fake/duplicate models made by someone with access to the molds/facilities?

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

So these have been stolen from the batch of 141/181 locos in China prior to dispatch to Ireland, or are fake/duplicate models made by someone with access to the molds/facilities?

Either way it's still theft

[leslie10646]

6 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

On the subject of Murphys Models I was speaking with Paddy this afternoon
He is very upset with some of his models that are appearing on eBay etc and 
coming from China
These locos are stolen property!
He has been in touch with the authorities there and they are commencing an investigation
If anyone is found to have bought one of these stolen items it is his intention to have them
prosecuted for handling stolen property
Caveat Emptor, (pass Latin 1972 St Declans CBS Cabra!)

 

Unhappily, this production of fakes in China is nothing new. I won't recount how markets in Hong Kong were full of fake Designer Clothes, but your story rang a bell.

I'm reading "The Silk Roads" - "A New History of The World" (a mere 600 pages). There I read that in the 1600s, books were written in China itself  to help one to spot fakes.

I wish Paddy well with this, we've all been informed of the issue now.

On a lighter note, Dave, I'd no idea that you were SO young!!!!

Edited April 3 by leslie10646

[DiveController]

2 hours ago, Gabhal Luimnigh said:

Either way it's still theft

I understand that. I'm as confused as @BosKonay and trying to understand what is happening which is not clear from @WRENNEIRE's post of not April 1st. Hopefully he will reply

6 hours ago, BosKonay said:

All preorders would have had the same email but if you’re paid already you can safely ignore / check the status at https://irishrailwaymodels.com

When i click on the email it directs me to a preorder list which says that main payment for loco is "No".

Double checked the account and it has been paid long prior to the email. It would be simpler if they were sent only to those yet to pay or cancel?

Edited April 4 by DiveController

[Warbonnet]

Hi folks,

My understanding is that it was 121 class locos, not 141s.

Cheers!

Fran 

[skinner75]

18 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

On the subject of Murphys Models I was speaking with Paddy this afternoon
He is very upset with some of his models that are appearing on eBay etc and 
coming from China
These locos are stolen property!
He has been in touch with the authorities there and they are commencing an investigation
If anyone is found to have bought one of these stolen items it is his intention to have them
prosecuted for handling stolen property
Caveat Emptor, (pass Latin 1972 St Declans CBS Cabra!)

 

Prosecuting someone for 'handling stolen property' is a bit of a dick move on his part IMO

[NIRCLASS80]

44 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Prosecuting someone for 'handling stolen property' is a bit of a dick move on his part IMO

If it was your stolen property would you feel the same!

Just imagine having something stolen, then it appears on eBay and saying, that’s fine!  NOT!

Edited April 4 by NIRCLASS80

[leslie10646]

The same retailer is selling Pokemon card sets (the price of those makes our hobby look cheap), Dapol locos and lots of model vehicles.

I'm with Paddy on this, for sure.

Caveat Emptor  indeed. The seller is quite open that he's in China and I'm sure that Paddy will confirm that he has no retailer there! So it's crystal clear they ain't kosher? If something's too go to be true - it usually isn't.

Edited April 4 by leslie10646

[skinner75]

25 minutes ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

If it was your stolen property would you feel the same!

Just imagine having something stolen, then it appears on eBay and saying, that’s fine!  NOT!

Except it is a copy - Paddy still has the full order he placed with the manufacturer.

Press charges against the factory owner, not the people buying locos from Ebay - sure how are they to know anyway?

Same as going after the drug dealers instead of the users/addicts

I get the whole Intellectual Property (IP) thing - the factory are the ones running off extra copies to sell themselves, taking all the profit. This is who should be charged.

 

Example - One of your relations knows you are into modelling Irish railways. As a present, they want to get you a model loco. Seeing them sold out on the Irish shops, they go to Ebay, and lo and behold, there's Irish locos for sale. They purchase one from the Chinese seller - should they be charged with handling stolen property? Should you if you received it from your aunt/uncle whatever? Daft...

Edited April 4 by skinner75

[Westcorkrailway]

15 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Except it is a copy - Paddy still has the full order he placed with the manufacturer.

Press charges against the factory owner, not the people buying locos from Ebay - sure how are they to know anyway?

Same as going after the drug dealers instead of the users/addicts

 

I think these locos were not copies but pulled out of the reject bin. So these models could be decective hence he wants them out of circulation 

 

same when a bad batch of currency gets out of the mint 

[Flying Snail]

16 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Except it is a copy - Paddy still has the full order he placed with the manufacturer.

Press charges against the factory owner, not the people buying locos from Ebay - sure how are they to know anyway?

Same as going after the drug dealers instead of the users/addicts

 

Its his IP that has been stolen, and it has a value. The copies are distorting the market. Yes, that means cheap locos for some now but if it makes it unviable for him to do future reruns then that could impact whether or not he stays in business.

[DJ Dangerous]

19 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

On the subject of Murphys Models I was speaking with Paddy this afternoon
He is very upset with some of his models that are appearing on eBay etc and 
coming from China
These locos are stolen property!
He has been in touch with the authorities there and they are commencing an investigation
If anyone is found to have bought one of these stolen items it is his intention to have them
prosecuted for handling stolen property
Caveat Emptor, (pass Latin 1972 St Declans CBS Cabra!)

 

 

I'd like to request that the mods create a new thread, warning members of the potential dangers of buying unofficial Murphy Models' products.

It is not relevant to the current batch of 141's / 181's, but IS a very important topic.

This has been touched on vaguely for several years now, and one of the things bothering me is that we, the members of this forum, are the ONLY ones targeted with these warnings.

I would expect a press release from Murphy Models, either saying that they are not doing anything because they cannot do anything, or that they have taken X, Y and Z steps on A, B and C dates, and the relevant references for each legal case.

There have been no mailouts from Paddy Murphy's retailers, there have been no direct mailouts from Murphy Models, there have been no posts on RMWeb, there have been no posts on social media.

There have ONLY been threats made here on this forum, no transparency, no accountability, no references, no communications to any other groups.

Yes, I'm well aware that Paddy Murphy is a one-man-band, but for something with such far-reaching consequences, that has been going on for several years it is worth a few hours of his time preparing a statement with references.

I have been following the Boletin here in Spain, as we were told several years ago that Murphy Models had taken legal action against El Imperio del Hobby, and @Warbonnet locked that thread after a private request from somebody.

Personally, I don't like that kind of cencorship without proper closure - locking the thread is fine, but only after including references for members to follow up themselves.

Also, there is no, and has been no, legal action taken against El Imperio del Hobby, according to the official Boletines here in Spain.

I'd appreciate an update on that legal action, too.

Again, transparency, accountability and references, please.

[skinner75]

49 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Its his IP that has been stolen, and it has a value. The copies are distorting the market. Yes, that means cheap locos for some now but if it makes it unviable for him to do future reruns then that could impact whether or not he stays in business.

Yep, I get the IP thing. Legally going after anyone but the factory selling these unofficial models is a waste of time

[exciecoachbuilder]

Some good points being made here, a can of worms has certainly been opened. 

[DJ Dangerous]

3 minutes ago, exciecoachbuilder said:

Some good points being made here, a can of worms has certainly been opened. 

 

 

[murphaph]

1 hour ago, skinner75 said:

Yep, I get the IP thing. Legally going after anyone but the factory selling these unofficial models is a waste of time

I'd have to agree. There is no way a buyer could know that a model produced in the same factory as the original is stolen IP so a prosecution would never be brought. Before I read any of these forum posts on this topic I actually bought such a single(!) model from HK. It was completely original and could not be distinguished from a "legit" one. How was I to know that there was some illicit trade in models made after hours in the actual factory the real McCoys were made in? I genuinely had no clue about this practice back then. It's not the same as Chinese knock-offs of Louis Vuitton bags or whatever that clearly look like knock offs once you start examining the item more closely. Once these illicit models are in circulation and no longer with the original importer, there really is no way to tell them from apart from ones that came in as part of Paddy's legit order. 

This all comes down to the lack of respect for IP that exists in China. It's always going to be a bit of a gamble having stuff produced there I guess. The smaller you are the less worried the factory is going to be about losing future orders presumably. I don't buy from HK or Mainland China based eBay sellers of models now as I know the score but most people not on this forum are probably genuinely unaware of the origin of these models on eBay. 

[skinner75]

4 minutes ago, murphaph said:

This all comes down to the lack of respect for IP that exists in China. It's always going to be a bit of a gamble having stuff produced there I guess. The smaller you are the less worried the factory is going to be about losing future orders presumably. I don't buy from HK or Mainland China based eBay sellers of models now as I know the score but most people not on this forum are probably genuinely unaware of the origin of these models on eBay. 

^^Exactly this^^

China don't see IP as a thing from what I have heard before.

[Ironroad]

1 hour ago, skinner75 said:

Yep, I get the IP thing. Legally going after anyone but the factory selling these unofficial models is a waste of time

Taking the legal route is long and arduous and probably pointless in China.  It seems to me that to satisfy an order of a given number of models a factory will most likely overproduce as a contingency against the probability of seconds, but the fact is that much of this overproduction will probably be perfect.  What happens next is the grey area. The factory may be negligent in controlling this stock and it walks out the back door or they are complicit with another entity who sell it on on eBay.

So logically some arrangement should be in place with the factory on the disposal of any overproduction.  But this is still dependent on the diligence and ethics of those at the factory.  

If I were in Paddy's shoes, I would have a go at eBay and request that they cease facilitating the sale of illicit products.  

 

 

Edited April 4 by Ironroad
typo

[Keano30]

1 hour ago, Ironroad said:

Taking the legal route is long and arduous and probably pointless in China.  It seems to me that to satisfy an order of a given number of models a factory will most likely overproduce as a contingency against the probability of seconds, but the fact is that much of this overproduction will probably be perfect.  What happens next is the grey area. The factory may be negligent in controlling this stock and it walks out the back door or they are complicit with another entity who sell it on on eBay.

So logically some arrangement should be in place with the factory on the disposal of any overproduction.  But this is still dependent on the diligence and ethics of those at the factory.  

If I were in Paddy's shoes, I would have a go at eBay and request that they cease facilitating the sale of illicit products.  

 

 

"If I were in Paddy's shoes, I would have a go at eBay and request that they cease facilitating the sale of illicit products"I

Good luck with dealing with eBay. I have had an issue like this previously and eBay washed their hands and didn't want to know. Since then I never buy anything from eBay and would recommend to everyone not to buy from eBay. There is such a lack of action on their part when issues are highlighted to them. 

Also don't bother with the cops because all they will say is its a Civil issue and they can do nothing about it.

Edited April 4 by Keano30

[Ironroad]

1 hour ago, Keano30 said:

"If I were in Paddy's shoes, I would have a go at eBay and request that they cease facilitating the sale of illicit products"I

Good luck with dealing with eBay. I have had an issue like this previously and eBay washed their hands and didn't want to know. Since then I never buy anything from eBay and would recommend to everyone not to buy from eBay. There is such a lack of action on their part when issues are highlighted to them. 

Also don't bother with the cops because all they will say is its a Civil issue and they can do nothing about it.

I have had the opposite experience with eBay. Some years ago I complained to them about being the victim if misrepresentation and they deleted the vendor.

eBay has been involved in many lawsuits globally with regard to counterfeit/ illicit products with very mixed results in the courts, so nothing is certain. However before getting to that stage and even as a prerequisite to a lawsuit the first step is to notify them with supporting evidence  that a vendor on their site is effectively selling stolen goods. They have to take that seriously and investigate the matter as otherwise the integrity of their service gets called into question and they risk compromising any defence they might have in the event of a lawsuit.

[K801]

Is there a way to tell they are fake? 

[BosKonay]

12 minutes ago, K801 said:

Is there a way to tell they are fake? 

Or are they fake? How would anyone know if they bought one?

[DJ Dangerous]

14 minutes ago, K801 said:

Is there a way to tell they are fake? 

 

I bought some Cravens coaches from El Imperio a few years ago, and they look, feel and run identical to those bought from other sellers.

(To add context, this was one of the retailers subject to legal action from Murphy Models for selling over-produced Cravens)

One thing to note with the current glut of 121's on eBay, is that the sellers are genuine toy and model shops in China.

BenBen / OneLink / Woody are a huge model retailer, selling lots of brands.

So, are they in on the scam, or are they also a victim?

Edited April 4 by DJ Dangerous

[BosKonay]

7 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

I bought some Cravens coaches from El Imperio a few years ago, and they look, feel and run identical to those bought from other sellers.

(To add context, this was one of the retailers subject to legal action from Murphy Models for selling over-produced Cravens)

One thing to note with the current glut of 121's on eBay, is that the sellers are genuine toy and model shops in China.

BenBen / OneLink / Woody are a huge model retailer, selling lots of brands.

So, are they in on the scam, or are they also a victim?

Or have they bought the stock from another distributor? I know our experience is only the last decade but something like this should be effectively impossible with a good factory partner

[Ironroad]

14 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

One thing to note with the current glut of 121's on eBay, is that the sellers are genuine toy and model shops in China.

BenBen / OneLink / Woody are a huge model retailer, selling lots of brands.

So, are they in on the scam, or are they also a victim?

Well if Paddy is complaining, they clearly didn't buy from him or a distributor of his. They may not be acquiring these models directly from the factory or from a source with some connection to the factory but regardless the supply chain is not  legitimate. That being the case as I have already suggested Paddy needs to notify eBay and they should be concerned enough to ask the vendors to declare their source of supply and should the vendors fail to demonstrate a legitimate source then eBay should be obliged to cease facilitating them.

Unfortunately, the ultimate solution for Paddy is probably finding a new factory partner. I think he has been down a road similar to this before. The tooling for the original Lima 201's disappeared after the demise of Lima and knockoffs appeared. Hornby who took over the Lima tooling denied knowing the whereabouts of the tooling for the 201.  So it seems that these events were probably a big motivator in the production of a much upgraded 201 that negated any value in the old tooling.

[irishmail]

Seems to be Dapol affected as well now.

https://www.dapol.co.uk/blogs/news/fake-dapol-products?fbclid=IwAR0d_oKLWULyLcTpPW2UfqfqVEDTINUF9z7izk3KYYPZpPN7gZPXO0oSdVI_aem_AWnpiQhHwfOji5v8meKeaJI5Xy8Lf-MzoLuFuEbrOmqEqXYZWpHrnxXIxHZr4bN_gwA1YoyQb6CRWdsHyyuy5BnL

[hurricanemk1c]

Not sure about China, but plenty of model shops in Japan (such as Plaza Japan and Hobby Search) are full genuine retailers who sell a hell of a lot more than model trains, so just because they sell other unrelated things doesn't mean they are fake. This is a general comment, not about the specifics of Murphy's or Dapol

[DJ Dangerous]

40 minutes ago, irishmail said:

Seems to be Dapol affected as well now.

https://www.dapol.co.uk/blogs/news/fake-dapol-products?fbclid=IwAR0d_oKLWULyLcTpPW2UfqfqVEDTINUF9z7izk3KYYPZpPN7gZPXO0oSdVI_aem_AWnpiQhHwfOji5v8meKeaJI5Xy8Lf-MzoLuFuEbrOmqEqXYZWpHrnxXIxHZr4bN_gwA1YoyQb6CRWdsHyyuy5BnL

 

It doesn't tell you how to identify the fakes!

So, how does one know?

The Dapol announcement is tagged as "O Gauge" so is it only O Gauge fakes?

Model Railway Emporium on eBay are UK based, selling brand new 121's, yet are not listed as an authorised distributor on the Murphy Models website.

Are they selling stolen products or fakes?

 

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

So are these the fakes?  Excess product made and sold without consent?  

[DJ Dangerous]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

So are these the fakes?  Excess product made and sold without consent?  

 

I think that it was the Cravens that were over-produced in very small quantities, stored for a few years to age them, then sold via a retailer in Madrid.

The current 121's, I think it was @Westcorkrailway who confirmed with Paddy, were not over-produced but were seconds not fit for sale.

[Horsetan]

22 hours ago, skinner75 said:

^^Exactly this^^

China don't see IP as a thing from what I have heard before.

To the Chinese, everything is fair game. But the devil take you if you poach anything of theirs.....

[K801]

Do the fake models happen to have different running numbers? ONLY JOKING

Seriously, when the models hit Paddy Murphys warehouse, maybe he can put an official seal sticker on it that its genuine.

[DJ Dangerous]

How do IRM avoid this happening with their products?

As an aside, would it be a good idea in future for Murphy Models to collect any seconds unfit for sale, and strip them for parts for warranty jobs?

I'm sure people would buy the parts from Paddy, bodies, chassis, bogies, motors, PCB's, you name it.

It would stop this from happening, and bring in more money / reduce costs for Murphy Models.

Was that downvote for me or for Dapol, @BosKonay?