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Irish Rail Mark3's

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Would Irish Railway Models consider commissioning a special run from Oxford Rail of modern standard Mark 3's as it looks like they have executed them rather well and they are such an iconic coach for Irish railways for a 20year period??

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I don't think that the Oxford Mark 3's are a perfect match to what ran here. So far with the ballasts and bubbles Irish Railway Models have gone for accuracy, so I'm not sure that the Oxford coaches would fit in with that?

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None of the Mk3s available from Lima, Hornby or Jouef are a perfect match, particularly given they have the manual rather than automatic doors.

So form that persepctive, they are no better or worse.

 

Having said that from the close up Model Rail photos I've seen, their fine detail touches look very, very good. Definitely a worthy contender for Ral2011. (...awaiting the colour bunfight now)

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I contacted them when they first mentioned they were producing a new Mk 3

I think it was about this time last year

I asked if they would do a run of Irish Mk 3's

They said they were looking at the possibility of producing a kosher Irish coach

I asked them to keep me informed but I have heard nothing back :confused::confused:

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I contacted them when they first mentioned they were producing a new Mk 3

I think it was about this time last year

I asked if they would do a run of Irish Mk 3's

They said they were looking at the possibility of producing a kosher Irish coach

I asked them to keep me informed but I have heard nothing back :confused::confused:

I thought you might have had a tip off.

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We were actually approached about 18 months ago by another established manufacturer who wanted to produce a new British Mark III with a view to collobrate with us to do a kosher Irish version with proper prototype fidelity. This would've been a top of the line, bang on Irish outline Mark III with the proper doors, details and Genny van etc. However, Oxford beat them to the punch in the UK with their announcement and the project was halted.

 

As Robbie correctly pointed out, we do not want to compromise the standards of Irish Railway Models by releasing a British Mark III repainted in Irish colours. That's been done before and we want to move Irish railway modelling on from those days.

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you have got to stick to your principles on this, it may be a small market but it is just as important to those who need your products

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Well there is two ways it can go

 

1) Oxford do nothing and it's business as usual

2) They do a UK 442.

 

If 2, I woul expect Irish Mark 3s to appear. Order could be the other way around.

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One of the problems with some modern image rolling stock such as mk3/mk4 and twin container bogie flats is they are very long and don't look as well on typical layouts, which cannot accommodate decent length rakes of long stock items. They can look very odd overhanging shorter radius track bends. You get a more poetic license with shorter wheelbase stock facilitating more realistic rake formation lengths. For example the long MM 201s just didn't seem to sell well and may be in retailers stocks for years to come. Then there is the cost factor of buying a realistic length rake that is also practical to fit and operate on a layout.

 

Now if I was modelling in N gauge it would be a different matter because you could easily accommodate an 8 coach rake of 75ft coaches looking well on large radios curves, but it just doesn't work as well in 4mm scale.

 

One of the attractions of the earlier eras is you can mix and match virtually any coaching stock, they were shorter 57-62ft, and a rake of 4-6 coaches, or even one plus a heating van looks prototypical.

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One of the problems with some modern image rolling stock such as mk3/mk4 and twin container bogie flats is they are very long and don't look as well on typical layouts, which cannot accommodate decent length rakes of long stock items. They can look very odd overhanging shorter radius track bends. You get a more poetic license with shorter wheelbase stock facilitating more realistic rake formation lengths. For example the long MM 201s just didn't seem to sell well and may be in retailers stocks for years to come. Then there is the cost factor of buying a realistic length rake that is also practical to fit and operate on a layout.

 

Now if I was modelling in N gauge it would be a different matter because you could easily accommodate an 8 coach rake of 75ft coaches looking well on large radios curves, but it just doesn't work as well in 4mm scale.

 

One of the attractions of the earlier eras is you can mix and match virtually any coaching stock, they were shorter 57-62ft, and a rake of 4-6 coaches, or even one plus a heating van looks prototypical.

 

I have to ask this, are you actually saying that the reason the 201's will be on retailers shelves for years to come is because they are too long. I have seen dozen's of UK based layouts that aren't huge, and some could be classified as average sized with full length HST sets operating on them. People have converted garages and attics in standard 3 bed semis and they run eight coach MK111 sets. The model is more important to them than how it might overhang on a certain set of curves. I don't think that the length of a 62 ft timber wagon would turn a manufacturer off of producing one because of overhang. I have seen push pull models on layouts at exhibitions and the layouts aren't wide or more than 16 ft in length. For lot's of folk it's all about the atmosphere that the layout creates, and seeing their favorite trains running on them.

 

I do honestly believe that there is a huge gap to be filled in the MK111 class of Irish coaches and my own personal preference would be push pull sets, especially with the MM 121's on the horizon. If there were any people seriously worried about room, they could accommodate a short push pull set of MK111's, there are always options.

 

Rich,

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I think the only reason the 201's are slow sellers is due to the large number of Lima models already in the market and some people are perfectly happy with them. Remember the 141/181's from Murphy also didn't disappear immediately.

Irish model market is limited, when compared with most markets it is tiny. We are very fortunate that people like Murphy models took the initial gamble and that them and IRM continue to invest and strengthen the standard of RTR models.

Back to Mark 3's, I think we will see better quality ones sometime as they are just such an iconic coach.

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Oxford Irish coaches due in shops 2019 according to Oxford themselves May even do a gen can cost depending.

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Hi Rich

 

I have to ask this, are you actually saying that the reason the 201's will be on retailers shelves for years to come is because they are too long. . . .

 

Combination of reasons. Lack of compatible RTR rolling stock, the Lima effect, and yes IMHO, shorter wheel base stock will have a broader appeal and wider target market. Another reason may be the 201 prototypes may not have as much nostalgia appeal as the earlier GMs due to the predominant age profile of the hobby, and the very distinctive shape of the older locos with walkways and rails just makes the models more desirable than the plain shape of the modern locos.

 

I do honestly believe that there is a huge gap to be filled in the MK111 class of Irish coaches and my own personal preference would be push pull sets, especially with the MM 121's on the horizon.

 

That makes a lot of sense re PP where shorter rakes won't look out of place. In IE 121 hauling two or three coaches and a DVT would fit in well on any size layout.

 

I travelled more miles myself on mk2 and mk3 but bizarrely my 'nostalgia' memory prefers the look, operating fun and great diversity of older stock when playing model trains, but that's just a personal thing. I actually have a 201 but its more for a display case and don't plan to drive it on the layout.

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PS: Just wondering as there are plenty of RTR BR mk3 coaches already available, despite the small differences, but that are relatively easy to respray or commission resprays, would an IR Mk4 coach be a more attractive proposition for some Irish model operators? There is no RTR remotely close to them in terms of shape, they are unique Irish prototypes, and probably the most attractive looking livery ever to run on Irish rails.

 

Just a thought (goes against my length reservations) :)

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We were actually approached about 18 months ago by another established manufacturer who wanted to produce a new British Mark III with a view to collobrate with us to do a kosher Irish version with proper prototype fidelity. This would've been a top of the line, bang on Irish outline Mark III with the proper doors, details and Genny van etc. However, Oxford beat them to the punch in the UK with their announcement and the project was halted.

THat's a shame. I had picked up on the hints last year and was disappointed when some announcement eventually did not follow. I'd like a whole rake in Supertrain livery to be honest, for those of you who think it's drab, that's fine, but these coaches looked very well in that livery

Dublin Heuston

 

I do honestly believe that there is a huge gap to be filled in the MK111 class of Irish coaches and my own personal preference would be push pull sets, especially with the MM 121's on the horizon. If there were any people seriously worried about room, they could accommodate a short push pull set of MK111's, there are always options.

Yes, I have to agree with that. It might not be the best economic sense for a manufacturer but I can tell you there will be many modelers who come into the hobby in the next few years who will be happy that some are still available other than through the 'Bay or similar at a premium price

Edited by DiveController

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PS: Just wondering as there are plenty of RTR BR mk3 coaches already available, despite the small differences, but that are relatively easy to respray or commission resprays, would an IR Mk4 coach be a more attractive proposition for some Irish model operators? There is no RTR remotely close to them in terms of shape, they are unique Irish prototypes, and probably the most attractive looking livery ever to run on Irish rails.

 

Just a thought (goes against my length reservations) :)

 

You brushed on this before and even admitted to owning a 201

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/5325-Mk4-bodge-mad-idea-or-doable

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They're not that easy to respray accurately with the silver framing around each window. Most resprayers want to respray only from the BR IC coaches masking the centre area but the color in that area on those coaches is more of a charcoal IMO rather than black. Yes, there are silver decals available for the windows. Still leave the doors...

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Hi Rich

 

 

 

Combination of reasons. Lack of compatible RTR rolling stock, the Lima effect, and yes IMHO, shorter wheel base stock will have a broader appeal and wider target market. Another reason may be the 201 prototypes may not have as much nostalgia appeal as the earlier GMs due to the predominant age profile of the hobby, and the very distinctive shape of the older locos with walkways and rails just makes the models more desirable than the plain shape of the modern locos.

 

 

 

That makes a lot of sense re PP where shorter rakes won't look out of place. In IE 121 hauling two or three coaches and a DVT would fit in well on any size layout.

 

I travelled more miles myself on mk2 and mk3 but bizarrely my 'nostalgia' memory prefers the look, operating fun and great diversity of older stock when playing model trains, but that's just a personal thing. I actually have a 201 but its more for a display case and don't plan to drive it on the layout.

 

Lack of compatible rtr rolling stock ?

201 galway set.jpg

 

They also worked Craven trains on a regular basis. SSM Ammonia wagons, SSM 42ft flats, and the list goes on. I would bet correct detailed accurate MK111 coaches would sell like hot cakes, the beautiful Supertrain livery and branding that Dive linked, IR & IE liveries. They would cover a greater period than the newer and more recent Dublin Heuston to Cork coaches.

 

As always Noel like all of us you are entitled to your opinion and correct to voice it, even if it is a wee bit ill informed at times.

 

Rich,

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Lack of compatible rtr rolling stock ?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28280[/ATTACH]

 

They also worked Craven trains on a regular basis. SSM Ammonia wagons, SSM 42ft flats, and the list goes on. I would bet correct detailed accurate MK111 coaches would sell like hot cakes, the beautiful Supertrain livery and branding that Dive linked, IR & IE liveries. They would cover a greater period than the newer and more recent Dublin Heuston to Cork coaches.

 

As always Noel like all of us you are entitled to your opinion and correct to voice it, even if it is a wee bit ill informed at times.

 

Rich,

 

No prob Rich. :) Like that photo, is that a mixed rake of mk2 and cravens, or Galway mk2 set with some black roofed mk2? Personally for me 201s were more quintessentially remembered for hauling mk3 sets and later the mk4, but perhaps that memory is shaped by the routes I travelled on most. As you say 'each on to their own'.

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All Mk. 2.

 

Cravens couldn't run with Mk 2 (or 3) in passenger traffic.

 

I have to say that I saw a random mix of "Galway" liveried Mk 2s and "tippex" ones - more often than the much more uniform set shown above! Good to see them all in a row, as it were - a lovely photo.

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The MK11's were retired from the Dublin Heuston - Waterford and the return journey by the MK111 push pulls and they were very often pulled by a 201. The coaches in the pic are as JB has pointed out all MK11 aircons. I remember seeing the full Galway set in Heuston a week after it had been returned to traffic. There were nine coaches in all refurbished outside and inside, There weren't any composites refurbished for it. Getting back to the MK111's they are the most comfortable coaches I have ever traveled on in Ireland. We'll see how the Oxford models look in the flesh, hopefully they will raise the bar, and if there is a chance they might make amendments to their tooling we might see a proper MK111 set of coaches in the future.

 

Rich,

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All Mk. 2.

 

Cravens couldn't run with Mk 2 (or 3) in passenger traffic.

True. Many unusual pairings of locos or coaches were top rescue failed trains of simply as stock transfers

088 on 1620 FO Heuston-Ballina at MP17 28-Apr-06

The first coach in that train seems to be a first/composite

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True. Many unusual pairings of locos or coaches were top rescue failed trains of simply as stock transfers

088 on 1620 FO Heuston-Ballina at MP17 28-Apr-06

The first coach in that train seems to be a first/composite

 

First coach is a standard Craven. Second is the Mark 2 EGV. Rest are standard Mark 2's bar the 4th vehicle (54xx buffet) the second last vehicle (appears to be a Mark 2 composite but likely declassified)

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True. Many unusual pairings of locos or coaches were top rescue failed trains of simply as stock transfers

088 on 1620 FO Heuston-Ballina at MP17 28-Apr-06

The first coach in that train seems to be a first/composite

 

I actually worked that particular train from Castlerea to Ballina on that date,

From my notes in my Guards journel,the Cravens coach is 1558 and it was to replace 1505 which had developed an electrical fault while working the Ballina branch train,

Sorry for going off topic admins.

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True. Many unusual pairings of locos or coaches were top rescue failed trains of simply as stock transfers

088 on 1620 FO Heuston-Ballina at MP17 28-Apr-06

The first coach in that train seems to be a first/composite

 

I actually worked that particular train from Castlerea to Ballina on that date,

From my notes in my Guards journel,the Cravens coach is 1558 and it was to replace 1505 which had developed an electrical fault while working the Ballina branch train,

Sorry for going off topic admins.

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First coach is a standard Craven. Second is the Mark 2 EGV. Rest are standard Mark 2's bar the 4th vehicle (54xx buffet) the second last vehicle (appears to be a Mark 2 composite but likely declassified)

yes. Sorry, that was my fault. I was referring back to Rich's post above without making that clear to, well, anyone else, I suppose

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28280[/ATTACH]

The first coach in this train seems to be a first/composite. Looks to be only seven vs. the usual 8

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Ah - I was looking at the link you posted! No problem!

 

First coach in that formation (201+Galway Mk2's) looks to be 5411 (buffet). Second last vehicles looks to be a composite, as there is something braking up the livery

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