IRM announce NIR Enterprise Mark 2 Coaches

[DiveController]

Just looking at the original NIR Mk2 stock from 1970 before the addition of the Mk2c stock in 1972. A restaurant, FO, four SO but TWO DBSOs. Why 2 driving trailers in this 1970-1972 period?

The composition is great for an 7* coach enterprise drawn by or double headed by the new Hunslets with a trailing DBSO which would make the second DBSO redundant except maybe for servicing? Did the second DBSO also run to strengthen the rake in any case?

OR

Did they run two shorter 3-5 coach trains like on the winter service either with restaurant & FO or without? This would provide purpose for the second DBSO.

Was there an increased frequency of these shorter trains and was that on the Belfast-Dublin route, or did the second formation go further afield say to Derry in that early?

OR

Was the second DBSO acquired to just run with something else entirely (I realize 811 was converted to run with 80- class but not until 1988)  

Edited September 5, 2021 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Just looking at the original NIR Mk2 stock from 1970 before the addition of the Mk2c stock in 1972. A restaurant, FO, four SO but TWO DBSOs. Why 2 driving trailers in this 1970-1972 period?

The composition is great for an 7* coach enterprise drawn by or double headed by the new Hunslets with a trailing DBSO which would make the second DBSO redundant except maybe for servicing? Did the second DBSO also run to strengthen the rake in any case?

OR

Did they run two shorter 3-5 coach trains like on the winter service either with restaurant & FO or without? This would provide purpose for the second DBSO.

Was there an increased frequency of these shorter trains and was that on the Belfast-Dublin route, or did the second formation go further afield say to Derry in that early?

OR

Was the second DBSO acquired to just run with something else entirely (I realize 811 was converted to run with 80- class but not until 1988)  

The second one was (a) in case the other was out of service for maintenance, and (b) the seating in it strengthened the set when busy.

While not always adhered to, the original plan was that a seven coach set would be used in the summer with TWO locos, one at each end, and the driving trailer in use as a guard's van and passenger accommodation, as opposed to an ACTUAL driving trailer. In winter, a five coach set would be used with a loco at one end, and a driving trailer in use as such at the other.

At the very outset, they neither went to Derry were intended to, though forays on that line did happen later on, but never for a sustained period despite various announcements now and again, and pressure from rail users' groups to have an Enterprise-like service on the line.

Had the Derry Road stayed open, one wonders if they might have ventured there.....

[flange lubricator]

47 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I suppose you'll be expecting a Dutch Van to go with that?? 

Well if one was offered it would be bad manners to turn them down .

[Robert Shrives]

A Dutch would be good fun but if the GSV does not fly perhaps not much hope for any Dutch version - I will keep on with mine to ensure an rtr is soon announced ! 

Mind you if the MK2 packs sell out then you never know ! - at least the B5 bogies are made as a starting point. 

Robert 

 

[DiveController]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The second one was (a) in case the other was out of service for maintenance, and (b) the seating in it strengthened the set when busy.

While not always adhered to, the original plan was that a seven coach set would be used in the summer with TWO locos, one at each end, and the driving trailer in use as a guard's van and passenger accommodation, as opposed to an ACTUAL driving trailer. In winter, a five coach set would be used with a loco at one end, and a driving trailer in use as such at the other.

At the very outset, they neither went to Derry were intended to, though forays on that line did happen later on, but never for a sustained period despite various announcements now and again, and pressure from rail users' groups to have an Enterprise-like service on the line.

Had the Derry Road stayed open, one wonders if they might have ventured there.....

Thanks @jhb171achill. So in essence designed for Enterprise use only with one or more of the DBSOs in use as standard coaching stock when topped-n-tailed with the unused coaches in the sidings in the winter months.

 

 

[DiveController]

8 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

A Dutch would be good fun but if the GSV does not fly perhaps not much hope for any Dutch version - I will keep on with mine to ensure an rtr is soon announced ! 

Mind you if the MK2 packs sell out then you never know ! - at least the B5 bogies are made as a starting point. 

Robert 

 

Did you mean a CIE MK1 generator would not fly? If anything has been learned form the MM MK2ds I would say that a loco hauled train not providing HEP always requires a generator van no matter how few coaches are being hauled even on a short branch (with a few obvious exceptions of course)

[Robert Shrives]

Hi Just being a bit of a devil`s advocate  - I am sure a GSV will be a hot cake but when discussed in the weed role it was suggested IIRC that finances did not add up...  I am sure that the sums will be worked out in the end patience or get up and make one has always stood Irish modellers well !  

I am sure a Dutch in both modes has appeal and patience a virtue!

Robert    

[jhb171achill]

41 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Thanks @jhb171achill. So in essence designed for Enterprise use only with one or more of the DBSOs in use as standard coaching stock when topped-n-tailed with the unused coaches in the sidings in the winter months.

 

 

Yes, exactly - though at the very outset the idea was that the spare carriages and a spare Hunslet would be used as a local set - probably on the Derry line; in those days, passenger loadings didn't exceed the equivalent of two coachloads on many services. Two standards and a driving trailer would have been adequate.

This didn't happen in reality, largely because of the poor reliability of the locomotives - rarely were all three in traffic. Understandably, this led to a degree of head-shaking in the Loco Dept., where those of a more practical mind took the view that NIR would have been better off going to La Grange for three 181s, rather than Hunslet! There was political pressure put on NIR by Stormont to go to Britain rather than America, which is in itself an interesting story dating back to late UTA days.

[jhb171achill]

I should have added, to put it all in perspective, the historical background to this. 

The UTA and early NIR were acutely aware of the constraints of a lack of standardisation, so they wanted anything new after the 70 class to be as versatile as possible. The Hunslets were from Day 1 also intended to be used on the last few spoil trains, anything loco hauled (they still had quite a fleet of old steam-era carriages for busy summer days).

When the 80 class were in planning, about the same time, they were to be used in 2, 3 or 5-car sets; the latter (or six car sets) to be made by joining driving trailers to create a through-corridored 5 or 6 coach set in addition to operating as 2 or 3 car sets. Also, they were always planned to be used on rugby specials and as an emergency substitute (or extra) Enterprise service.

Edited September 6, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

And boring as this made the NIR of the 80s, it arguably helped its survival 

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Galteemore said:

And boring as this made the NIR of the 80s, it arguably helped its survival 

Yes, exactly! I think that without the 80s it could have succumbed even more.

Those things kept it going through the troubles and a concurrent period of very severe economic deprivation. A RTR model is an essential thing now - well beyond my period of historic interest, but I'd buy one for the craic.

 

[DiveController]

Does anyone have any info on the internal layout of 547 RB which was initially 21S then 22S when converted. Looks like the first 3 bays were seating but how was this laid out? Was there a full kitchen to prepare meals in the remainder and a side corridor?

Incidentally what is a Restaurant Buffet coach in NIR term or is that supposed to be a Restaurant Bar coach? Iirc wasn't there in seat dining with table side service at one point or was that provided in the FO coach 

Edited September 7, 2021 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, DiveController said:

Does anyone have any info on the internal layout of 547 RB which was initially 21S then 22S when converted. Looks like the first 3 bays were seating but how was this laid out? Was there a full kitchen to prepare meals in the remainder and a side corridor?

Incidentally what is a Restaurant Buffet coach in NIR term or is that supposed to be a Restaurant Bar coach? Iirc wasn't there in seat dining with table side service at one point or was that provided in the FO coach 

Not so sure of exact internal layout, but, yes, there was table service in it. The kitchen was at one end with a side corridor round it as you suggested.

While I stand to be corrected, I think the last actual kitchen cars with service entirely in an adjacent coach died with the GNR in the 1950s, and CIE in the early 60s.

The NIR 1970 dining car always had a particularly garish plastic internal decor……

[Dhu Varren]

 

Some sketches of interior of 547.

[iarnrod]

Those drawings are actually class. Don't suppose that you have the same for 548? Curious what the interior of that looked like.

 

[DiveController]

@Dhu Varren David, those drawings are EXACTLY what I was looking for and extremely detailed and helpful. I guess you used these when you did your own splendid rake of NIR MK2s in the past.

Many thanks,

 Kevin

[seagoebox]

On 28/8/2021 at 10:06 PM, jhb171achill said:

In terms of where these coaches went to, I am still delving, but a learned and long-standing friend contacted me today having seen these posts, and advises me of certain interesting movements they had.

On 10th February 1994, the RPSI's No. 4 hauled one of the Mk 2 vans from York Road, via Antrim and Lisburn, to Belfast Central Services Depot, at the former BCDR Queen's Quay station. he also suggests that a set of Mk 2s also reached Larne Harbour on an MRSI excursion in 1997.

So there's a bit more information; at least one of them was hauled, on at least one occasion, by a proper steam engine instead of an infernal combustion machine.....!

And here are a few images from that day.. no 4 worked LE from Whitehead to Magheramorne, shunted a bit and brought wagons to York Road and then brought genny van from body work repairs at York Road round to Central Service Depot Via Antrim (run round). Finally returned light engine later that evening to Whitehead. Pictures taken at Magheramorne, Ballyclare no 3 crossing, Kilmakee (loco inspector Frank Dunlop) and Crumlin station.

[Galteemore]

Fascinating stuff with loads of detail on what NIR used to be- back in the day when the old NCC main line was effectively mothballed. Nice to see the late Davie McDonald driving - the epitome of the understated Ulsterman….

[seagoebox]

On 7/9/2021 at 2:02 AM, DiveController said:

Does anyone have any info on the internal layout of 547 RB which was initially 21S then 22S when converted. Looks like the first 3 bays were seating but how was this laid out? Was there a full kitchen to prepare meals in the remainder and a side corridor?

Incidentally what is a Restaurant Buffet coach in NIR term or is that supposed to be a Restaurant Bar coach? Iirc wasn't there in seat dining with table side service at one point or was that provided in the FO coach 

I attach a very grainy B&W photo of the saloon interior of dining car 547, taken at GVS in January 1976

[jhb171achill]

I remember that weird padded interior indeed - good to see steam in actual RAILWAY work in the 1990s. (And later!)

[connollystn]

Hope you guys are aware that this thread was created so it will take our minds off the other much bigger Irish railway related projects which are to be revealed in the near future.

[DiveController]

Ah yea, I knew I had seen a picture of this somewhere without the yellow background. Should have looked in Ernies Archive first, lol

 

[Blaine]

8 hours ago, DiveController said:

Ah yea, I knew I had seen a picture of this somewhere without the yellow background. Should have looked in Ernies Archive first, lol

 

Nice, definitely a local service given the length of the train, my guess is Portadown to Bangor, they tended not to stray too far from Belfast once they were off the Enterprise, especially for passenger work, Freight and the odd CE train was different though!!

Edited September 23, 2021 by Blaine

[DiveController]

About 1988. The driving trailer and following coaches have received the NIR version of tippex stripes in the newer NIR IC blue. Might be a 5-coach winter timetabled Enterprise service propelled by the Hunslet at an intermediate stop I suppose  

Edited September 23, 2021 by DiveController

[Blaine]

3 hours ago, DiveController said:

Might be a 5-coach winter timetabled Enterprise service propelled by the Hunslet at an intermediate stop I suppose  

Unlikely given theres a mere 3 coaches in the pic, after 113 arrived they rarely worked on the Enterprise. Its deputising for a 80 class set here

[jhb171achill]

45 minutes ago, Blaine said:

Unlikely given theres a mere 3 coaches in the pic, after 113 arrived they rarely worked on the Enterprise. Its deputising for a 80 class set here

That's exactly what it's doing. I travelled on that set at the time. 101 was on the back.

[LARNE CABIN]

I agree with Blaine. It's a local Bangor - Portadown, heading towards Portadown. Looks like somewhere between Belfast and Lisburn, maybe Dunmurry!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, LARNE CABIN said:

I agree with Blaine. It's a local Bangor - Portadown, heading towards Portadown. Looks like somewhere between Belfast and Lisburn, maybe Dunmurry!

I thought it might be Lambeg, on the down line, i.e. heading for Central / Bangor - but no footbridge is evident.... somewhere about there, yes, no doubt.

Edited September 23, 2021 by jhb171achill

[Galteemore]

Has a Finaghy look to me….

[jhb171achill]

3 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Has a Finaghy look to me….

I thought that too, though I wondered if the platform the photographer is standing on is a bit wide? It certainly is not Hilden, Dunmurry, Derriaghy, Adelaide or Balmoral. So we’re narrowing it down!

I would be less familiar with the Bangor line halts at that time.

It’s not Knockmore either, nor anywhere west of there.

 

[LMSNCC]

It's Carnalea on the Bangor line.

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, LMSNCC said:

It's Carnalea on the Bangor line.

Ah! There we go; mystery solved!

[Irishswissernie]

There was no or hardly any info on the original slides but a fair number were on the Bangor line and at Carnalea

[NIRCLASS80]

2 hours ago, Blaine said:

Unlikely given theres a mere 3 coaches in the pic, after 113 arrived they rarely worked on the Enterprise. Its deputising for a 80 class set here

Plus there was a period between the 70’s dying and the 450’s being in full service that I would imagine anything goes as long as it moved!

[Galteemore]

As far as the 450s go, anything that moved was better! Here’s a fascinating photo from that 1984 era. All is not as it seems - there’s a large black tank engine at the other end banking!! Photo on RPSI website by I Smyth

Edited September 23, 2021 by Galteemore