CIE Standard coach (laminate stock)

[Junctionmad]

For that money Id want something that is not 3D printed and has flush glazing along with correct decoration. For that money you could buy 2 MM Cravens.

 

Time for people to vote with their feet. So what if it is Irish and RTR. Its wrong and people need to speak up and not embrace it cos its Irish and therefore flawless

 

Well , just place 1000 piece order and I'm sure you'll be supplied with nice RTR stock.

[Glenderg]

Many who've replied on this thread do not remember the last time anyone had a serious opinion about IFM stock, which was me, and it resulted in IFM leaving here as a contributor, several bans being handed out, and some pretty wild personal insults to me, which will be settled in a car park eventually. (it wasn't IFM incidentally)

 

I have no particular issue with customers who want to buy his stock. Much of it is as good as MIR was back a few years ago, and those kits are still selling for a fortune on ebay, but for any serious modeller, nay rivet counter its not up to scratch. In order to bring it up to craven standard, there is a hell of a lot of work to do, if you can accept compromises like parts of the under frame and sole bar being removed to accommodate a bogie. But that's me. I'm a nerd for this stuff and it gets my goat. I stay silent because he satisfies an audience here.

 

But many on this forum just want to play trains and have rakes of stuff that satisfy their era. The two foot rule applies - if it looks good to, you buy it. Tommy brady is actually filling a hole badly needed in this small community - to provide rtr examples of commercially unviable models. To that end, I'd like to apologise to IFM for any offence I may have caused years ago.

 

What I do take issue with is people fantasizing about 5 pole motored, working fanned A classes, and superior detailed 121 models that would surpass the current Murphy Model stock, and then posting poor photos and "whoop!" Reviews without mentioning any potential shortcomings. If you're going to take photos, take decent Res ones, in decent light and let the punter make his own mind up.

 

90% of this forum is comprised of lurkers, and they take a lot of the posters words at face value. Nobody wants to purchase an IFM model in the mistaken belief it's to the same standard as a MM craven. Be fair! The man has a market for his stock, and I'm not going to bash it, him, or his stock. He's shown an eagerness to improve by virtue of his stock offerings.

 

So. Let's not turn this into another bunfight gents. Horses for courses, live and let live. It is toy trains after all.

 

Rich.

[WRENNEIRE]

Cheers Richie

So it was you after all

I thought it was my criticism of the 2 Weedspray rakes I got from him

I will sleep better tonight.

[Glenderg]

Cheers Richie

So it was you after all

I thought it was my criticism of the 2 Weedspray rakes I got from him

I will sleep better tonight.

 

You lit the fire, I fanned it, you're a retired moderator now. Sleep tight.

[Noel]

Good morning Richie.

Thank you, that clarifies a few things.

Cheers

Noel

[jhb171achill]

Well said, Glenderg. To me personally, they're fine but it's clear they're not rivet-count perfect. On seeing the green one, I rounded on details of the livery - though obviously (a) of all inaccuracies in any model, while it's by far the most obvious, it's also the easiest to put right; and (b) I would again echo the point that any model is better than none.

 

I haven't seen one in real life, nor the park royal. Maybe it was photos or my eyesight but the PR did seem to look well.

[Weshty]

I haven't seen one in real life, nor the park royal.

 

Get yourself to Kiltemagh, they've two fine ones there and readily accessible, I've taken multiple measurements and photros for future reference.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4285

 

There are two Park Royals down in Clonakilty.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Weshty

[minister_for_hardship]

Get yourself to Kiltemagh, they've two fine ones there and readily accessible, I've taken multiple measurements and photros for future reference.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4285

 

There are two Park Royals down in Clonakilty.

 

The Kiltimagh ones have gained yellow (not eau de nil) stripes and the PR's at Clon didn't look quite right colour-wise, probably too dark a shade of green.

 

Seating layouts might well have been altered in all of them, esp. the one in Clon serving as a cafe.

[Garfield]

Get yourself to Kiltemagh, they've two fine ones there and readily accessible, I've taken multiple measurements and photros for future reference.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4285

 

There are two Park Royals down in Clonakilty.

 

Des, I think JB meant he hadn't seen the models in real life... I'm certain he practically lived in 1:1 scale Park Royals and laminates at one point!

[jhb171achill]

Ah yes, I meant the models..... I travelled all over Ireland in the rest thing, back in the day, when pussy was a kitten...... :-)

 

I've seen the Clonakilty and Kiltimagh ones, and the RPSI and DCDR have used several examples in traffic in recent years. But thanks for pointing it out!

 

Incidentally, I wouldn't be me without pointing out that the livery details on DCDR's 1918 and 3223, and all examples at Kiltimagh and Clonakilty, are entirely wrong in almost every detail.....

[RedRich]

Very well said one & all regarding the Irish ( small manufacturers ) who have made the effort to produce rtr Irish rolling stock to such a totally mega standard which we, who are so privileged to have these people in or midst should at all times be complimented for their efforts, & yes they do charge a fee for their efforts, & as I only process a very few of these rtr items yet when I can I will buy even if it's considered highly priced at least there produced ! not like those who have evidentely never learnt the meaning of " put up or SHUT UP "

 

Just to clarify a few things with this post. I personally would not consider these coaches as a mega standard, it's my opinion which I am entitled to have. Secondly it is out of order to be telling people to put up or shut up if their opinion doesn't meet with the criteria of one who see's them as fine. Especially when the shut up is done in caps as it can be taken as an aggressive comment. Paul you have claimed on here countless times that you don't even consider yourself a railway modeller, which kind of defeats the purpose of joining a group for railway modellers. I hope you can see where I am going with this, there are a lot of folk on here that do have high expectations, and can be a tad disappointed when a model doesn't have a certain wow factor. When this group was in it's infancy and in the days leading up to when the group went online it was the intention of the owner and the few of us (myself included) who wanted to start a new group, that everyone would be entitled to voice their opinion as long as it was not bordering on becoming insulting. It is still my opinion that the Park Royal and Laminate models are overpriced and lacking in areas of detail and quality irrespective of how small a run of them is produced. Personally I believe that the Worsley Works parts make a much finer representation of the prototype, and there are enough photos out there to prove that.

 

Rich,

[RedRich]

Doh wish this hadn't got negative.

 

For me personally it was good news and quite simple. I wished to have some CIE Park Royals and Laminates of a good enough quality to make formations to run with my Black and Tan era MM 141s and MM Cravens, and to that end they 'do what they say on the tin' more than nicely. Like anybody I wish they cost less but they are worth paying for rare specialist RTR models produced in tiny volumes. There is obviously no way small volumes can be produced to the same standard as higher volume injection moulded plastics, nor at the same price. But here's the rub, they are more than good enough for many folk, and better than anything I could build from a kit (ie probably botched joints, bent panels, poor paint job, etc). The paint job on these RTRs was actually quite good.

 

(Not replying to anybody in particular, and not trying to start a bun fight). There has occasionally on this forum been the odd hint of 'modellers snobbery' or 'superiority complex' where small producers of Irish RTR stock get knocked or suffer undue levels of negativity. Well I for one am glad these small producers are meeting a demand, just as I am delighted with the top notch quality of MM GMs and MM Cravens, and equally enthusiastic about the launch of IRM.

 

To have a CIE laminate or not that is the question? Last week I didn't, this week I do, it looks well with the other coaches, and that's all that matters to me personally. I don't have the time, health nor skills to build ultra fine scale models from kits, so thank you IFM for your Park Royals and Laminate coaches. I will be ordering more. Equally I do however applaud and congratulate those who have the skills and time to build and finish their own stock to a high standard.

 

Noel I think snobbery is a bit to strong a word. It's a matter of expectations for a lot of us and less so for others. I've not experienced any snobbery from any of the exceptionally talented and experienced modellers on here like you might find in other areas where groups of hobbyists, or people that play sports for instance get together. Some people have a zeal for pushing the boat out a little further each time to test their own abilities just as there are those that want to enjoy the hobby for what it is to them, and neither can look down their noses at each other, nor should they. What's one mans lump of coal can be another persons gold, it's an opinion.

 

Rich,

[Noel]

Hi Rich

 

I hear what you say. What are the Worsley Works laminate kits like? Do they come with everything including wheels, bogies, couplings, glazing, couplings and roof, or do they need donor models? I've just had a look on their website but I could not find any photos or details (pretty poor website btw). Any photos on here of finished builds?

 

Noel

[RedRich]

Hi Rich

 

I hear what you say. What are the Worsley Works laminate kits like? Do they come with everything including wheels, bogies, couplings, glazing, couplings and roof, or do they need donor models? I've just had a look on their website but I could not find any photos or details (pretty poor website btw). Any photos on here of finished builds?

 

Noel

 

Noel John Mayne of this parish has built some of the WW Laminates and Park Royal kit's in the past. They are sold as an aid to scratch building and they look really good when finished. Kirley has been working on some of the kit's himself and they look great. I am sure that there are some pics in Johns workbench thread.

 

Rich,

[enniscorthyman]

The Park royals and Laminate coaches are

expensive rtr,however I would like a kit

version of the Park Royal when funds permit.I have bought the IFM Curtin and

metal door cements in kit form and enjoyed

building them

People can make up their own minds if they want to buy them or not.

[Weshty]

What are the Worsley Works laminate kits like? Do they come with everything including wheels, bogies, couplings, glazing, couplings and roof, or do they need donor models?

 

You get sides, ends and a floor and that's it.

 

I'm giving serious consideration to providing a suitable casting pack to include bogies, gangways, battery box, torpedo vents, buffers to aid construction.

[burnthebox]

Just to clarify a few things with this post. I personally would not consider these coaches as a mega standard, it's my opinion which I am entitled to have. Secondly it is out of order to be telling people to put up or shut up if their opinion doesn't meet with the criteria of one who see's them as fine. Especially when the shut up is done in caps as it can be taken as an aggressive comment. Paul you have claimed on here countless times that you don't even consider yourself a railway modeller, which kind of defeats the purpose of joining a group for railway modellers. I hope you can see where I am going with this, there are a lot of folk on here that do have high expectations, and can be a tad disappointed when a model doesn't have a certain wow factor. When this group was in it's infancy and in the days leading up to when the group went online it was the intention of the owner and the few of us (myself included) who wanted to start a new group, that everyone would be entitled to voice their opinion as long as it was not bordering on becoming insulting. It is still my opinion that the Park Royal and Laminate models are overpriced and lacking in areas of detail and quality irrespective of how small a run of them is produced. Personally I believe that the Worsley Works parts make a much finer representation of the prototype, and there are enough photos out there to prove that.

 

Rich,

 

Rich, just to clarify a few things, 1/ Mega standard= my opinion, 2/ Capitals= take it what ever way they like, 3/ Railway Modeller I'm not, Interested in model railways, playing with model trains I am, 4/Never Joined a Group, I Joined Website for people interested in model railways I believe, at the end of the day it's horses for courses, that includes prices & standards,

Paul

[RedRich]

I agree with 1 it is an opinion which you are entitled to, never said anything less, we just don't agree with each others. As for 2 the less said the better. 4 This is a group, community, site, so you did in fact join a group, but we won't argue over that. A railway modeller is someone that is interested in model railways and playing with trains hence the name of the group Irishrailwaymodeller so you must be a closet modeller, come on admit it.

 

Rich,

[RedRich]

Many who've replied on this thread do not remember the last time anyone had a serious opinion about IFM stock, which was me, and it resulted in IFM leaving here as a contributor, several bans being handed out, and some pretty wild personal insults to me, which will be settled in a car park eventually. (it wasn't IFM incidentally)

 

I have no particular issue with customers who want to buy his stock. Much of it is as good as MIR was back a few years ago, and those kits are still selling for a fortune on ebay, but for any serious modeller, nay rivet counter its not up to scratch. In order to bring it up to craven standard, there is a hell of a lot of work to do, if you can accept compromises like parts of the under frame and sole bar being removed to accommodate a bogie. But that's me. I'm a nerd for this stuff and it gets my goat. I stay silent because he satisfies an audience here.

 

But many on this forum just want to play trains and have rakes of stuff that satisfy their era. The two foot rule applies - if it looks good to, you buy it. Tommy brady is actually filling a hole badly needed in this small community - to provide rtr examples of commercially unviable models. To that end, I'd like to apologise to IFM for any offence I may have caused years ago.

 

What I do take issue with is people fantasizing about 5 pole motored, working fanned A classes, and superior detailed 121 models that would surpass the current Murphy Model stock, and then posting poor photos and "whoop!" Reviews without mentioning any potential shortcomings. If you're going to take photos, take decent Res ones, in decent light and let the punter make his own mind up.

 

90% of this forum is comprised of lurkers, and they take a lot of the posters words at face value. Nobody wants to purchase an IFM model in the mistaken belief it's to the same standard as a MM craven. Be fair! The man has a market for his stock, and I'm not going to bash it, him, or his stock. He's shown an eagerness to improve by virtue of his stock offerings.

 

So. Let's not turn this into another bunfight gents. Horses for courses, live and let live. It is toy trains after all.

 

Rich.

 

Good man Richie some sound advice. Let me know when the fight in the car park is due to take place. I'll be your seconds man, and hold your coat.

 

Rich,

[Noel]

Live and let live, we are all model railway fans of some sort or another, and I'm sure would get on and enjoy chatting face to face.

 

As I said the coaches were more than pleasing for my purposes, and I really enjoy running them. I never expected nor claimed they were as detailed as the MM Cravens. I have also seen at close hand some of the amazing ultra fine scale models that were scratch built or modified RTR by some of our very talented brethren. Hat's off to them, but please don't bite me if I don't wear a cap.

[leslie10646]

Don't underestimate the power of Thomas. Took the smalls to Mallow to see #4 stopping off in Mallow many moons ago. There is a plywood version of Thomas on the main platform that they drooled over whilst completely ignoring #4 right behind them. Kids eh?

 

Des

 

You obviously don't beat them enough!

 

If they can write, make them do a hundred lines (in Erse, of course, or Latin, if you really want some fun). "No.4 Rules the Rails - Thomas is a TOY".

 

Grandpa Leslie

 

PS My grandson did a wobbler when his parents took him up to London by train and they couldn't provide him with a GPS so that he knew how fast the train was going - I've been training him hard!

[jhb171achill]

The world of the stopwatch still exists, Leslie - just about!

[Kirley]

You get sides, ends and a floor and that's it.

 

I'm giving serious consideration to providing a suitable casting pack to include bogies, gangways, battery box, torpedo vents, buffers to aid construction.

 

What a fantastic idea Des but don't forget the most difficult item to model -the roof of course. [i write while working on a Worsley Works kit with a Comet roof cut down the center trying to splice a piece of plasticard down the middle and using isopon to hold it all in place]

[Noel]

You get sides, ends and a floor and that's it.

 

I'm giving serious consideration to providing a suitable casting pack to include bogies, gangways, battery box, torpedo vents, buffers to aid construction.

 

Sounds like a good idea. Personally I'd have little interest in partial kits such as Worsley Works. A proper kit should supply all the bits needed including assorted transfers, glazing, wheels, bogies, under frame gear, couplings, interior layouts, door handles, grips, roof, vents, pipes, drains, steps, corridor connectors, etc. 'Matchstick' modelling seems more a relic of the 60s before plastics replaced metal - aka Rovex displacing Dublo.

[RedRich]

You get sides, ends and a floor and that's it.

 

I'm giving serious consideration to providing a suitable casting pack to include bogies, gangways, battery box, torpedo vents, buffers to aid construction.

 

The WW Park Royal and Laminate kit's are crying out for the parts you mention Des especially the bogies. The bogies are completely different to the UK equivalent being a rather cut down version of them. You are on a role at the moment yourself Des with the new kit's, the ammonia kit looks sweet in Richie's tutorial. I'll be contacting you for some more flats soon and I am not forgetting the bogie sub frames, up to my eyeballs with other things at the moment.

 

Rich,

[Garfield]

Sounds like a good idea. Personally I'd have little interest in partial kits such as Worsley Works. A proper kit should supply all the bits needed including assorted transfers, glazing, wheels, bogies, under frame gear, couplings, interior layouts, door handles, grips, roof, vents, pipes, drains, steps, corridor connectors, etc. 'Matchstick' modelling seems more a relic of the 60s before plastics replaced metal - aka Rovex displacing Dublo.

 

In fairness, Worsley Works products are marketed more as 'scratch aids' rather than fully developed kits. They do enable superb end products to be produced, though, such as Magpie1951's Park Royal: http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/660-Worsley-Works-ParkRoyal-build?highlight=magpie

[Weshty]

Damn!! Nice job there. Really looks the business. Gotta get moving on those commonwealths....

[flange lubricator]

The WW Park Royal and Laminate kit's are crying out for the parts you mention Des especially the bogies. The bogies are completely different to the UK equivalent being a rather cut down version of them.

 

Rich,

The Commonwealth bogies fitted to the Park Royals and the early laminates were 8'0" Commonwealths , the Bachmann Commonwealths are 8'6" C'wealths used in the UK , the 8'6" C'wealths were fitted to 1497-1503 Laminates(ultra wides 10'2") , 1145-1146 full First and 2403 Kitchen car

 

It would be great to have the 8'0" C'wealth , the Gangways and battery boxes available.

Edited November 6, 2015 by flange lubricator

[GSR 800]

Des

 

You obviously don't beat them enough!

 

If they can write, make them do a hundred lines (in Erse, of course, or Latin, if you really want some fun). "No.4 Rules the Rails - Thomas is a TOY".

 

Grandpa Leslie

 

PS My grandson did a wobbler when his parents took him up to London by train and they couldn't provide him with a GPS so that he knew how fast the train was going - I've been training him hard!

 

When I first found out about Irish railways (and the 800s) when I was about 6 I took out my tomy Henry train and painted it in a dark green! The rest is history...

[Weshty]

A proper kit should supply all the bits needed including assorted transfers, glazing, wheels, bogies, under frame gear, couplings, interior layouts, door handles, grips, roof, vents, pipes, drains, steps, corridor connectors, etc.

 

And that in a nutshell explains why SSM coach kits cost upwards of €80. All that peripheral detail adds up.

[Warbonnet]

And that in a nutshell explains why SSM coach kits cost upwards of €80. All that peripheral detail adds up.

 

Still good value though Des in fairness.

[Noel]

Watch this space

[StevieB]

Now that everyone has calmed down, let's put things into perspective. Excellent as they are, the MM coaches are not perfect, especially the mk2d's if I am to believe what others have written. The same goes for IFM's coaches but, with a little effort, many of the faults can be overcome. To me the biggest issue with all of them is the undersize wheels - with the correct 3'-0" dia ones in place, the difference is amazing. To all those who provide us with the hardware to replicate Irish railways in miniature I say 'thank you'.

 

Stephen

[Railer]

To me the biggest issue with all of them is the undersize wheels - with the correct 3'-0" dia ones in place, the difference is amazing. To all those who provide us with the hardware to replicate Irish railways in miniature I say 'thank you'.

 

Stephen

 

The "problem" when using the correct scale wheels is that the tolling stock is then out of scale with the MM locos. I have 2 silver fox GSVs with correct scale wheels and they look great with them but they sit too high against a loco or Craven with their factory wheels. The coupling height is bang on but the buffer height is way off and the roof sits a bit higher than a Craven when a Craven should be taller than a Mk1.

 

You'd have to go and change all the wheels on all the locos too so I would settle for the under scale wheels as it's far to big of a job to change out all the rolling stock.

[Noel]

The "problem" when using the correct scale wheels is that the tolling stock is then out of scale with the MM locos. I have 2 silver fox GSVs with correct scale wheels and they look great with them but they sit too high against a loco or Craven with their factory wheels. The coupling height is bang on but the buffer height is way off and the roof sits a bit higher than a Craven when a Craven should be taller than a Mk1.

 

You'd have to go and change all the wheels on all the locos too so I would settle for the under scale wheels as it's far to big of a job to change out all the rolling stock.

 

I was wondering about that. And the coaches would ride too high at platforms. The "2ft rule" or the "duck test" tends to suffice for me. When we consider what an MM loco hauling MM cravens augmented by SF/IFM stock looks like, its a vast improvement on the CIE livery Lima class 33s and Lima BR Mk1s in B&T livery that were on offer 35 years ago.

 

We are in danger of impractically high expectations given the welcome improvements and diversity in Irish 00 gauge model stock triggered by MM products. Who knows what improvements in 3D printing may take place in the next decade. There may come a time in the not too distant future when we can pay online for a 3D print of any Irish rolling stock item, or even print at home if the quality and cost of 3D printers continues to improve exponentially.

 

IMHO, 3D has a long way to go yet to match the detail and resolution of injection moulded plastic, but the same was said of daisy wheel printers, lasers and ink jets in the early days of those technologies (for those old enough to know what a 'daisy wheel' was)