Dugort Harbour

[jhb171achill]

At last, a new year and a new layout, after a gap of many years with a garden railway dismantled some 6 years ago, and the Austrian 009 in boxes for longer.

I'm really starting from scratch here, and plan to show bits and pieces as this develops. It truly is at start stage now, as all i have are two coach kits, a signal cabin kit, a 141 and a J15. 

The layout will be based on an imaginary GSWR outer terminus, something like Valentia Harbour, inspired by Westport Quay, Baltimore, and the like. The idea is that there's a long branch from somewhere civilised, where the Dublin trains arrive, and this outer outpost was probably built in 1890 with thoroughly unrealistic expectations as to how busy it would become! Result - it's become a backwater off a backwater, surviving only because of beet and maybe (like Westport Quay) to bring an oil tank full of diesel for CIE buses down every so often. It's the mid 60s, and the line hasn't long left - it will eventually succumb to the 1967 round of closures which killed the Mallow-Waterford and Thurles-Clonmel lines.

That's the setting.

I had agonised for quite some time as to whether to resurrect my 009 stuff, as German and Austrian narrow gauge has always been a big interest of mine. Using 9mm gauge would have allowed a significantly sized terminus for long distance trains -  a Corris-type thing with a few tiny slate wagons was never of much interest to me personally. On the other hand, as Leslie, Murphys, SSM and others here brought out more and more "proper" Irish stuff, I became tempted. Trouble was, like so many others here, space was at a premium, and the only way to do a "round-and-round" 00 gauge was to go into the garage. This place is used by daughter's car, so it would be necessary to have it on some sort of electric hoist when the car was in. After some consultation with one of our experts here, it became clear that this is only going to happen when i win the Euromillions. Since I don't buy tickets, I have to concede that this is unlikely to happen any time soon.

So it was back into the house. A chance conversation with someone in the 009 Society (of which I am a member) suggested selling the lot of Austrian stuff - in fact, I advertised them here too. I am also a member of the Austrian Railway Group, and I advertised them there too.

So it was back to the area once reserved for an 009 layout. It became clear that a shunting / fiddle yard layout is all that's possible here, so there it is; the genesis for the idea. What it will lack in operational possibilities (in terms of a continuous run and terminus shunting), it will hopefully make up for in other ways.

Small outer termini like those referred to above tended not to change much through their lives. We see Arigna Road, Bantry and so on - you could put stock dating from typical scenes in the 1930s there, and 1960s, and neither would look out of place. Thus, to provide interest, I intend to eventually have a set of stock around 1945 (GSR maroon gives way to CIE dark green era), another set to deal with mid to late fifties; this allows laminates, early diesels and Park Royals to appear, and by degrees, we're out of the grey'n'green era into the black'n'tan. So what it lacks in operational variety, it will hopefully make up for in rolling stock interest. Things like J15s and six-wheeled coaches will span all of these periods, as will many wagons.

I'm currently in discussions with Baseboard Dave and others - updates will be posted as things develop during the year.

I post this initially as I'm aware that there are others here with issues about space, and thoughts on how to deal with it. I did consider N gauge, but until and unless there are a good range of high quality kits, or better still, RTR stuff, this isn't going to happen for either myself or many others. Maybe, in ten years time, there will be enough N stuff - for example, one might expect 3D printing to improve drastically in quality, but we'll see.

I intend to have this finished to a high exhibition standard and displayed. But that won't happen overnight, and will involve me perusing in great detail the scenic works of a number of maestros, like the Holmans of Arigna, for example. 

 

[David Holman]

Apart from not being 21mm [!], sounds like a good plan JB. Don't want to muddy the waters on that one though. The one thing you haven't mentioned is 3' gauge. With 12mm track it would be the correct scale/gauge combo and there are a few things out there...

 Re scenics, suggest you get yourself a copies of Gordon Gravetts books on the subject - Grass, Weeds etc for certain and Trees too. Very readable and easy to apply too. All my own stuff is nothing more that replicating what he describes.

[Patrick Davey]

Love the scenario JB and who better to ensure rolling stock authenticity! Definitely one to watch so lots of luck with the progress. Dave’s baseboards are top drawer. 

[jhb171achill]

I'm looking forward to the scenic side of it. I had a great meeting with baseboard Dave today (thank you very much for your time, Mr. L!), and we discussed the whole project in detail. Understandably, he is very busy and actual construction won't start immediately, but the collection of rolling stock will.

David Holman, yes, I hear you! - and it had occurred to me to maybe base a terminus on something like Glenties (SHORTER Donegal railcars!) or Ballyshannon. It would run on 00 gauge track and the model would be an appropriate scale to use it as 3ft gauge. However, Railcars 12-20 would need a fair sized turntable and running them backwards wouldn't be an option.

Another one on that scale might be one of the mine offshoots of the Ballymena, Cushendall & Red Bay Railway; a couple of converted Isle of Man tanks and a few short wheelbase coal trucks - the passenger train being a twice-daily one-carriage affair.

However, what I'm focussing on now will resemble Westport Quay in some details, and Valentia* Harbour in others. The idea is that of a "branch off a branch" extension. Perusal of old timetables shows that Valentia was operated more as a shuttle from Cahirciveen, where the main train terminated, while Baltimore was operated as a further extension of the main line train which went only as far as Skibbereen. Equally, Westport Quay traffic tended to operate only to and from Westport Station. The idea here is to allow very short trains in a terminus setting which is way smaller (and thus shorter) than most - while retaining absolute authenticity.

If Murphy Models ever get around to doing a RTR horse, Fintona would fit this bill absolutely exactly. One might allow a little licence here, and assume the GNR pogrom never happened, and Fintona survived until, say, 1968. Had that happened, it would almost certainly very quickly have become just a goods siding, as freight into the town was still quite busy; but had a passenger service been retained, just watch UTA buy the Sligo Leitrim railcar from CIE, or transfer in a double ended thing like NCC 1 or that old GNR Gardner car which used to do the Derry - Strabane locals.

It looks, thus, as if this year will be spent gathering locos and rolling stock. The eventual idea is that there will be three separate sets of locos and rolling stock. One will span the 1940-50 period, all steam, with older wagons, many cattle, and convertible "soft-tops". Half a dozen six wheelers, maybe a few each in GSR maroon and original dark CIE green, will fulfil the passenger requirements.  Another set of stuff will utilise some of these, but Park Royals, laminates, McAllister "H" Vans and "C" class diesels appear. Tin van heaven... Finally, a motley collection of maybe nothing more than one each laminate of several types, a Craven, Park Royal, Bredin and an stray old GNR K15, a three-car Worsley AEC set (LONG term!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and along come the 121s and 141s; this lot all black'n'tan.

Don't hold your breath folks; Rome was never built in a day, and the above will take a good while to build up. There will be wallet-related matters to consider too, of course, plus hopefully successful applications to the Dept. of Domestic Planning, Tidiness, and Fiscal Approval.....  The major card I have to play in my planning applications is this:

 

       12.01  Please describe the major benefit of said application for the Construction and Housing of a Layout to the overall domestic economy, with particular reference to the back of the upstairs sitting room. 

       It'll keep him off the streets    It will keep me occupied, thus preserving peace and quiet downstairs.

       _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

       (Administrative use only. Please do not write below this line)

       Decision:    Application Granted.

 

M'lud, I rest me case. I'm off for a cup of tea. Over'n'out.

 

(* The GSWR, GSR and CIE almost invariably called it Valencia).

Edited January 2, 2018 by jhb171achill

[Noel]

Jonathan that sounds a great concept.  Really looking forward to following your layout project as it evolves over time.

[ttc0169]

An excellent choice and era JHB,I am personally delighted that you are proceeding with your layout, I'm sure you won't regret it,

Looking forward to seeing Dugort harbour develop and the best of luck with it.

[David Holman]

Yup, take your time and enjoy the journey!

[jhb171achill]

David, once this is finished, I'm definitely going to have a go at a 21mm thing - probably a Holmanesque imaginary offshoot of the Blessington tram...... long term.

[patrick]

Sounds like a very well thought out scheme John. With the rolling stock currently available you should be able to get realistic operations up and running at an early stage to keep up interest while working on more long term projects. I can't wait to see the mixture of green, silver and black and tan rolling stock at Dugort Harbour in the 1960's. 

[jhb171achill]

Thank you, Patrick. It'll be small and simple, just like Banagher, Skibbereen, Westport Quay  or Baltimore in 1960!

Discussions with Baseboard Dave satisfactorily concluded now. J15, 141 and two laminates in stock, and orders in with Provincial Leslie, SSM and Worsley.....

[patrick]

A couple of things I have learned about designing a model railway, it's really easy to over estimate what will fit in your available space. It's also really easy to under estimate the amount of satisfaction a simple uncluttered layout designed to be operated prototypically has to offer. 

Edited January 5, 2018 by patrick

[GNRi1959]

Looking forward to seeing this layout progress. The Fintona horse tram idea is worth considering. I built a model of the tram in 1992 which was purchased by the Transport Museum in Cultra. At the time, Tony Miles was toying around with the idea of a tram fitted with a drive shaft that linked with the horses rear end and made it walk! Detailed work....

Edited January 6, 2018 by GNRi1959

[jhb171achill]

On 06/01/2018 at 7:33 AM, GNRi1959 said:

Looking forward to seeing this layout progress. The Fintona horse tram idea is worth considering. I built a model of the tram in 1992 which was purchased by the Transport Museum in Cultra. At the time, Tony Miles was toying around with the idea of a tram fitted with a drive shaft that linked with the horses rear end and made it walk! Detailed work....

Now THAT would have been a sight to see!!!!

[jhb171achill]

A nice parcel arrived today from Pettigo Fair, Frimley. That'll keep me busy for a while.

Then another arrived with an old coach from Mr Ebay....

Edited January 19, 2018 by jhb171achill

[GNRi1959]

Are you still writing notes to Santa Claus..........?

[jhb171achill]

14 hours ago, GNRi1959 said:

Are you still writing notes to Santa Claus..........?

Yes, Tony; and I was beginning to doubt that he existed until these two Mayner vans arrived today. I had not seen JM Design products up close and personal before. Photos suggested they were by good indeed; having seen these two (one "suitcase" and one "hot water bottle" ='luggage van and heating van), I wouldn't call them "good" any more; "excellent" is more appropriate.

I await future Mayner stuff with great interest!

By the way, I'm after another luggage van if anyone has one to spare - ideally filthy silver or green!

Edited January 19, 2018 by jhb171achill

[popeye]

Nice train. Now get it off there before it goes over the side. 

[flange lubricator]

Looks great , in 1965 the then CIE ran a number of speed trials on the Dublin -Cork Line one of the trains was that very consist 1 HV , 1 Craven and 1 LV hauled by 2 (B) GM's they managed to do the journey in 2 1/2 hours  non stop  and not exceeding 75/80 mph .

[Glover]

Jhb, a question: were the 4 wheel luggage vans ever painted green?

I thought they were unpainted/silver originally and then went into black & tan.

i think I've seen a photo of a heating van in green but never a LV.

Good luck with the layout; I'm sort off reminded of Richard Chowns' Castle Rackrent.

Cheers,

Glover

[Old Blarney]

Glover,

 "A question: were the 4 wheel luggage vans ever painted green?' I hope they were painted so, I have one. It is a superb model that was made for me by John Mayne. One of three, he kindly made for me, one Silver, one Green and one in Golden Brown and Black with the white line below the roof and top of the windows. John made a number of coaches for me too.I doubt a Gentleman of his experience and knowledge of the Railways of Ireland would have supplied me with a four wheel heating and luggage Van in an incorrect colour.

DJW.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Old Blarney

[jhb171achill]

Hi Glover

I did see a pic of a LV in green somewhere, but it was years ago, so I've no idea where it was.

My own recollections of things green would not be clear enough to ascertain which type of van I saw in real life; most of my van recollections, by far, were black'n'tan.

Many vans, also a handful of carriages, went straight from unpainted to black'n'tan. 

Come to think of it, it's the heating van I'm inclined to think wasn't green..... I must check that. 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by jhb171achill

[Mayner]

David's green van was based on this photo which was supplied by A J O'Rourke. Unable to identify the photographer

 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Mayner

[DiveController]

6 hours ago, Glover said:

Were the 4 wheel luggage vans ever painted green?

I thought they were unpainted/silver originally and then went into black & tan.

There is a photo in my mind of both a HLV and a hooded van with other stock. One is in silver (the HLV I think) and the luggage van in green. I thought it was Ernie's but I couldn't find. Anyway, the 1962 IRRS tour to Ardnacrusha has a green eau de nil lined luggage van (Rails through the West p12). John's photo above is of the HLV (nice photo)

Edited January 20, 2018 by DiveController

[Irishswissernie]

Had a quick look, might be one of these.  Top one Tralee, lower Killarney - a few more trees around nowadays!

 

Ernie

Edited January 20, 2018 by Irishswissernie
info

[Glover]

The van shown in Mayners photo, sourced via Alan O'Rourke, is a heating van (HV), as also is the van in Irishswissernies' second photo, taken I think at Killarney.

However, I am 99% certain that the van half hidden by B157 is a luggage van (LV). First time I've ever seen any indication that any of them ever received the green livery; thank you !

I might advance a theory why the HV's were more likely to be repainted: CIE operated a "heating season". HVs were stored during the summer months and thus were available for repainting whereas the LVs were in continuous use.

Regards,

Glover

[murrayec]

Hi JHB

As I mentioned to you last week or so, I was raging that I missed John's kits, so I'm making my own, here are a few photos of it being developed up....

The parts for two Heating Vans

Scribed on detail

Roof , W Irons & Spring parts being assembled to make moulds off

I still have a bit to go but all is working out well....

Eoin

[DiveController]

2 hours ago, Glover said:

The van shown in Mayners photo, sourced via Alan O'Rourke, is a heating van (HV), as also is the van in Irishswissernies' second photo, taken I think at Killarney.

Correct, HLV in green in Mayners

2 hours ago, Glover said:

I am 99% certain that the van half hidden by B157 is a luggage van (LV). First time I've ever seen any indication that any of them ever received the green livery; thank you !

This is the photo I had in mind (thanks, Ernie) but BOTH are luggage vans, one in silver and one in green. Luggage vans ('hooded vans') has a central pair of door whereas the HLV had TWO pairs of doors fore and aft of the centrally located boiler with exhaust vents on the roof of the HLV. This is best seen in Ernie's second photo where the third van from the loco on right is a HLV in green (double doors, exhaust barely visible because of the angle) followed by the silver LV next to the BnT.  I believe the HLV still had capacity for 3T of luggage and were probably used year round even when heating was not required and can be seen in many photos taken in June/July. However as you say, may have to be taken in for maintenance before the autumn again. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

Eoin

I'll be on to you for a couple at time some stage, then!

I think you mentioned them when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, but I had already ordered these two.

By the time I'm done, I'll probably want about five, in the three liveries.

While I'd need to check, I don't believe that the "hot water bottles" were ever silver (thus delivered in green), but only the "suitcases" were.

Both types wore green coats, then black'n'tan.

At a guess, I'd say the last ones in green probably lasted until about 1964/5.

[DiveController]

23 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

While I'd need to check, I don't believe that the "hot water bottles" were ever silver (thus delivered in green)

At a guess, I'd say the last ones in green probably lasted until about 1964/5.

The were all delivered in silver along with 4w sorting vans/TPOs (iirc we discussed them before). I have some photos but don't know who to credit but someone will put one up I'm sure 

Edited January 20, 2018 by DiveController

[murrayec]

Hi JHB

Mr Coakham's book IBGC has a photo on page 44 of heating van No. 3131 sporting aluminium livery

Eoin

[jhb171achill]

While I had no recollection of silver "hot water bottles", as reminded by Eoin, a pic appears of one in a book. So both types were silver initially, all over. The heating vans tended to get dirtier roofs quicker, due to exhaust.

Both types wore green coats, then black'n'tan.

The green ones did not carry "snails", just the mid-body light green line.

At a guess, I'd say the last ones in green probably lasted until about 1964/5.

Edited January 20, 2018 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Dugort Harbour takes shape. Highly impressed after a visit to Baseboard Dave in the distant lands of Deepest Edenderry....

[David Holman]

Great stuff, JB. Always exciting starting a new project - may the force be with you.

[StevieB]

Flange lubricator’s reference to non stop trials in 1965 between Dublin and Cork reminds me of a fact that most people seem unable to grasp - it’s not how fast you go, it’s how slow you go ie the number of speed restrictions and stops govern the overall journey time. I know that IE recently conducted some high speed trials between Dublin and Cork but did they lead to anything? CIE, and BR, seem more interested in running what used to be called semi fast trains. 

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

An update from Baseboard Dave has boards complete and work proceeding.

It had occurred to me that one of a number of excuses for short workings into this terminus would be the fortnightly tanker of diesel to feed the CIE bus based locally, for the once-daily service to Slievemore village. I am aware that such practices existed at Ballina and perhaps elsewhere. In order to provide a realistic environment to where this wagon will end up at the end of a siding, does anyone have photos of anything of the sort? Presumably there would be a lineside fuel tank and all the associated gubbins. What would be adjacent to it - would it be an open tank, or a small brick building enclosing it all? I'm sure they didn't just unload fuel from a tank wagon directly into a bus!