You Can't Beat A Bit of Bulleid - Open Wagons Next For IRM

leslie10646 · November 3, 2023

Yes, another kit maybe going .......

These we wagons seem to have been used a lot like the illustration shows.

John-r · November 3, 2023

Great news that the Bulleid open wagons are being produced R-T-R by irm, they will be something special. However my own tuppence worth in this was the sheer enjoyment got from building Leslie's kits (staples an all ). Congrats well deserved to both IRM and Leslie.

DJ Dangerous · November 4, 2023

13 hours ago, Ironroad said:

They had a 10' wheelbase, 17' long, and 20' over buffers.

Twelve ton H vans were built on the triangulated chassis (from circa 1953), and probably Palvans (circa 1964) beyond that I'm clueless and and I'm also very interested to know what else the triangulated chassis was used for.

So they were 17' wagons and carried:

Single beet bodies.

H van bodies.

Palvan bodies.

Flat bodies.

Tank bodies, as per @Warbonnet's post here:

On 25/8/2020 at 11:47 AM, Warbonnet said:

Our weed spray pack features the three 42ft flat wagons with the distinctive weed spray tanks and a single CIE 20ft container used for storage of supplies. The tanks used were re-purposed from four wheeled tank wagons featuring the distinctive Bulleid triangulated underframes.

murphaph · November 4, 2023

Does anyone have more details on the weedspray train's evolution from these triangulated chassis? Did the tanks get removed from the Bulleid wagons and placed directly onto the 42' flats or was there an intermediate 20' wagon used?

DJ Dangerous · November 4, 2023

23 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Does anyone have more details on the weedspray train's evolution from these triangulated chassis? Did the tanks get removed from the Bulleid wagons and placed directly onto the 42' flats or was there an intermediate 20' wagon used?

@Warbonnet said:

On 25/8/2020 at 11:47 AM, Warbonnet said:

The prototype train switched from 20ft flats to 42ft flats in the mid 2000s with the introduction of the modified BR van. Operation was usually with a 141 and latterly an 071 with a very occasional 201 providing haulage.

So it sounds like the tanks from the 17' Bulleid triangulated chassis were transferred to 20' Flats at some stage.

StevieB · November 5, 2023

The brake gear under the Palvans was different to that on the Bulleid underframes.

Stephen

Garfield · November 5, 2023

19 minutes ago, StevieB said:

The brake gear under the Palvans was different to that on the Bulleid underframes.

Stephen

Different brake gear and springs, same triangulated underframe...

DJ Dangerous · November 10, 2023

Received an email from IRM today saying that "pre-orders have been massive and some of the variants are approaching 50% sold already!"

No excuses and no sitting on the fence, get your plastic or your cheque book out and get splurging!

Also, @Warbonnet, you mis-spelled "beet" in the thread title.

BosKonay · November 10, 2023

3 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Received an email from IRM today saying that "pre-orders have been massive and some of the variants are approaching 50% sold already!"

No excuses and no sitting on the fence, get your plastic or your cheque book out and get splurging!

Also, @Warbonnet, you mis-spelled "beet" in the thread title.

Just to remind it’s NO money down. So placing an order is 100% free, nothing to pay until in stock and cancel any time

Noel · November 10, 2023

23 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

Just to remind it’s NO money down. So placing an order is 100% free, nothing to pay until in stock and cancel any time

Order already placed last week. Looking forward go adding a rake of these to my two existing rakes.

Niles · December 11, 2023

I was looking for something else and came across this, proof that you can run bullieds and bogie ferts in the one consist:

Edited December 11, 2023 by Niles

leslie10646 · December 11, 2023

Well done Niles for posting this. We always need a bit of evidence of what was done "at some time" in the past.

It saves us saying "It's my railway and I'll do what I want on it!"

Niles · December 11, 2023

35 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Well done Niles for posting this. We always need a bit of evidence of what was done "at some time" in the past.

It saves us saying "It's my railway and I'll do what I want on it!"

Both work for me

Westcorkrailway · December 11, 2023

Ironically I sold my ferts to justify a 2nd pack of bullieds

jhb171achill · December 11, 2023

On 29/10/2023 at 3:34 PM, Noel said:

Logo was probably the manufacturer plate under the door. The letters CIE were on some of these plates.

Yes.

Like much of CIE tradition, and the GSR before, wagon makers / numberplates followed old GSWR Inchicore tradition.

So, in the later days of the GSWR, they changed from oval plates to the “D” shaped ones, with “G S W R” on them. The GSR simply copied this, using “G S R”, of course. In 1945 CIE did the same.

CIE plates can still be seen everywhere. I wonder will we ever see the same type of plates with “I E” on them?

There are examples of these standard Inchicore plates with “N I R” on them, on PW bogies that were either built or modified in Inchicore.

DJ Dangerous · December 13, 2023

On 11/12/2023 at 10:21 AM, Niles said:

I was looking for something else and came across this, proof that you can run bullieds and bogie ferts in the one consist:

Are those Bulleid open bodeis on the original triangulated underframes or on newer underframes?

jhb171achill · December 13, 2023

10 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Are those Bulleid open bodeis on the original triangulated underframes or on newer underframes?

Original - so, yes, the mix is available in model form. I see a few of Leslie's Provincial "H" vans in tere too, in this case probably to carry beet pulp. There's another brake van in the middle, so gawwd knows what's going on - was my first thought. But:

The then Wexford - Waterford goods had a guard's van at each end to save switching one from one end of the train to the other when it reversed at Rosslare strand. And the ferts have just ended up being added on somewhere.

Edited December 13, 2023 by jhb171achill

Flying Snail · December 13, 2023

On 11/12/2023 at 11:34 AM, leslie10646 said:

Well done Niles for posting this. We always need a bit of evidence of what was done "at some time" in the past.

It saves us saying "It's my railway and I'll do what I want on it!"

Looks like that is a motto CIE also took to heart in real life too

Georgeconna · December 13, 2023

Some Lovely shots on this thread that I have never seen before! thanks

it now pushing my thoughts into the 50's as the more interesting of the Era's to run on a layout!!

Niles · December 13, 2023

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Original - so, yes, the mix is available in model form. I see a few of Leslie's Provincial "H" vans in tere too, in this case probably to carry beet pulp. There's another brake van in the middle, so gawwd knows what's going on - was my first thought. But:

The then Wexford - Waterford goods had a guard's van at each end to save switching one from one end of the train to the other when it reversed at Rosslare strand. And the ferts have just ended up being added on somewhere.

At a guess maybe the ferts came down from Arklow on another service and were added in Wexford?

(Unless of course they're empties going back for Albatross in New Ross and were tripped from Waterford?).

jhb171achill · December 13, 2023

32 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

Some Lovely shots on this thread that I have never seen before! thanks

it now pushing my thoughts into the 50's as the more interesting of the Era's to run on a layout!!

I would agree. It’s the only period where you such a huge variety of stock, plus both steam and diesel. Many, many one-off local operations like the two horse tramways (Fintona and Shannonvale); brand new modern diesel railcars, coaches, tin vans and wagons, operating not just alongside; but intermingled WITH, stock which in a large number of cases was pre-1900, even in a few cases pre-1880.

Some locos and rolling stock long predated the actual lines they were running on, while others were so new their classmates were still being built in Inchicore.

And with so many branch lines still open - even on the basis of a thrice-weekly goods and little else - you’ve a modelling prototype for anything.

And several narrow gauge lines are still operating. Donegal and West Clare railcars were able to glimpse new shiny tin vans and new “H” vans across the tracks at Strabane and Ennis.

Edited December 13, 2023 by jhb171achill

jhb171achill · December 13, 2023

11 minutes ago, Niles said:

At a guess maybe the ferts came down from Arklow on another service and were added in Wexford?

(Unless of course they're empties going back for Albatross in New Ross and were tripped from Waterford?).

I’ll consult with Barry Carse; I suspect the latter is the case.

Robert Shrives · February 9

Hi, Not sure if this to late to the party stuff, but a friend in EM on Western Thunder forum showed the following about beet traffic in Eastern England :

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/attachments/img_3423-jpeg.207460/ttps://www.westernthunder.co.uk/attachments/img_3424-jpeg.207459/

might help along the way?

Robert

skinner75 · February 9

Need to login to that site - can't see the pic otherwise

Robert Shrives · February 9

hope that helps but why twice - my mistake !!

jhb171achill · February 9

Many thanks for that. With an existing mix of Provincial Leslie’s Bullieds, and various wooden-bodied opens, as also seen in beet trains up to about 1971/2, and forthcoming IRM Bullieds, I will need this stuff!

At some stage I want to replicate the busiest of days at Dugort Harbour with the place choked with beet wagons, loaders, ramps for trucks, and the one-coach passenger train barely able to get in….

It isn’t so convincing with “laden” trains consisting of trucks as empty as the “empty” ones!

Westcorkrailway · February 9

48 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Many thanks for that. With an existing mix of Provincial Leslie’s Bullieds, and various wooden-bodied opens, as also seen in beet trains up to about 1971/2, and forthcoming IRM Bullieds, I will need this stuff!

At some stage I want to replicate the busiest of days at Dugort Harbour with the place choked with beet wagons, loaders, ramps for trucks, and the one-coach passenger train barely able to get in….

It isn’t so convincing with “laden” trains consisting of trucks as empty as the “empty” ones!

There were days where so much beet was coming out of west cork every siding from courtmacsherry to Clonakilty junction. Was packed full of wagons

jhb171achill · February 9

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

There were days where so much beet was coming out of west cork every siding from courtmacsherry to Clonakilty junction. Was packed full of wagons

Indeed - a pattern repeated in many areas of the country.

Looking through Barry Carse's vast array of photos of beet operations a few years ago while selecting images for our last book, it was amazing to see what could still be witnessed even in the early years of this century - and that was but a tiny fraction of what was hauled in the 1950s and 60s.

Metrovik · February 17

So, having read all this, I'm guessing I should preorder a pack for my little 50s Branchline?

Westcorkrailway · February 17

2 hours ago, Metrovik said:

So, having read all this, I'm guessing I should preorder a pack for my little 50s Branchline?

In the 1950s they may have been new but already put to use on the beet trains among other mixed trains. Mixed in with the wooden GSR open wagons of course

jhb171achill · February 18

On 17/2/2024 at 11:41 AM, Metrovik said:

So, having read all this, I'm guessing I should preorder a pack for my little 50s Branchline?

Very much so, and in the 60s they’re quite new, so clean and shiny too! Go for the ones with grey chassis - the brown chassis didn’t appear until well into the 1980s era. As Cathal says, in your chose era they’re mixed in with ordinary wooden opens, with perhaps a third of the open wagon fleet bring the new ones, the rest various types of wooden ones, mostly standard GSR but a handful of GSWR & MGWR examples too.

DJ Dangerous · July 16

So, dug out some of these wagons to admire them with the Mark’s Models’ Jinty, and of course IRM’s jaw-dropping A1!

While angling for better shots, I couldn’t help but notice the distance between the buffers seems quite narrow.

They line up perfectly with UK stock, like the Jinty and @leslie10646‘s Dapol commissions, but look a bit odd when next to an A Class.

Is this prototypical of Irish wagons, that the buffers would follow a more British spacing?

DJ Dangerous · July 16

Couldn’t resist a quick shot with A1 more in frame. What a loco!

MAL · July 17

This weekend I came across that issue when placing a 121 class in front of my bulleid open string.

By this I realized what distracted me on these really nice opens and also the just arrived tank wagons.

Comparing with images of the prototype I could prove the reason is the narrow buffer spacing I mentioned in my mail before.

Double checking with an IRM ore and a 42' flat it became obvious the Bulleids Triangular frames suffer from a buffer spacing mismatch.

Looking for some information I found that in 1887 the Railway Clearing House (RCH) set the dimensions to those still valid today:
Buffer spacing (from buffer centre to buffer centre) = 5 feet 8 inches (1727 mm, 1:76 = 22,7mm) with standard gauge.
On Irish broad gauge the buffer spacing is 6 feet 3 inches (1900 mm, 1:76 = 25mm).
I picked some older models (British rolling stock by Dapol paited to appear Irish) I had stocked somewhere in the rear of my attic.
I saw the IRM Bulleid buffer spacing aligns with the models of British prototypes.

Then I checked more images of prototype and compared to available model images. This was disappointing. Carefully looking at these images one can see the narrow buffer spacing on all of the early undecorated models of flats, opens, tank and even the grains and vans seems to have the british spacing.

I was so happy with the beet traffic opens I recently got and now ... ... ... ... ... ... ...