You Can't Beat A Bit of Bulleid - Open Wagons Next For IRM

[Noel]

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

These terms (flying snail and cie roundel) are used in the descriptions of the wagon packs according to IRM. 

Yip probably indicating the era they belonged to. I never saw a CIE roundel or a Flying Snail logo on the side of any bulleid open wagons. The only thing I'm wondering is did some era of wagons have the lighter buffer arrangements.

[patrick]

I don't know if some were built with the heavier buffers or later upgraded but both types were in service together into the seventies. 

[flange lubricator]

19 hours ago, patrick said:

I don't know if some were built with the heavier buffers or later upgraded but both types were in service together into the seventies. 

I think some may have had their buffers replaced as they years went by with the more modern buffers as they came in for repairs and overhaul in the works  the addition to the newer slightly larger buffers the couplings also changed from three link to instantor type .

Edited October 30, 2023 by flange lubricator

[DJ Dangerous]

What were the Bulleid triangulated chassis used for aside from the single and double corrugated opens?

I saw somebody mention H vans, too.

Did any survive into the modern era under other guises?

When did the Permanent Way ones enter and leave service?

[DJ Dangerous]

30 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

What were the Bulleid triangulated chassis used for aside from the single and double corrugated opens?

I saw somebody mention H vans, too.

Did any survive into the modern era under other guises?

When did the Permanent Way ones enter and leave service?

 

I saw mention in the IRM weedspray thread that the weedspray tanks were repurposed from tank wagons running on triangulated chassis, so I guess that's another - tank wagons.

[RedRich]

Great choice especially for those that model that era. I will invest in a pack for sure.

[Eagles]

A lovely surprise at the show the beet wagons will go with my A class and the 141s happy days

[murphaph]

Did the double decker beet wagons in use in the mid 90s use the same chassis or were the bodies welded onto a later chassis type?

[BosKonay]

17 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Did the double decker beet wagons in use in the mid 90s use the same chassis or were the bodies welded onto a later chassis type?

Different chassis unfortunately 

[Ironroad]

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

Did the double decker beet wagons in use in the mid 90s use the same chassis or were the bodies welded onto a later chassis type?

Double beets date from 1985 on a later longer chassis. A quote from a posting by "Mayner" Feb '22:-

"The 'Standard" 20' flats break down into two groups 546 steel floored flats dating from the mid 60s which were eventually re-built into Bagged Cement and Beet Double Wagons and 200 Skeletals introduced in 1970"

[DJ Dangerous]

I wonder, for the 20' double-beets, were these bodies dumped straight onto the 20' flats, or were they re-worked?

How long were the triangulated chassis?

[murphaph]

Thanks chaps. A mine of information as always

[DiveController]

On 29/10/2023 at 2:36 AM, murphaph said:

But the packs with the flying snail description would be suitable for a layout based in say 1962?

Yes

On 29/10/2023 at 5:18 AM, Westcorkrailway said:

I think he means “work with CIE roundel Era stuff” versus “works with Flying snail Era stuff”  I have seen at least one of the grey chassis ones with a snail on the chassis. actually I think one of each in the grey pack has the snail represented.

 

A larger Steam engine like a Bandon tank also worked the beet from Ballinascarthy to cork. From Kent, I’ve seen footage of no.801 maca haul the rakes of sugar beet as far as mallow. 

Grand job! We be needing the 800snext then, lads

[Westcorkrailway]

14 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Grand job! We be needing the 800snext then, lads

Yes it is possible that even maebh herself hauled bullied wagons past rathpeacon and on to mallow. Perhaps somone has a photo somwhere. But 801 100 percent did that kind of work

[Leyny]

Before I begin, let me say I have bought from just about every producer of the modern OO Irish stock - IRM, Murphy’s Models, Silver Fox, JM Design, Provincial Wagons and IFM. As somebody who grew up in an era when there was literally nothing RTR available for Irish modellers that didn’t amount to an insult, I’m grateful to them all for what they have given us but especially IRM who have combined the highest quality models with genuinely world-class customer service. 

I may be in a minority of one here, but I must admit I was a little underwhelmed with this news and have mixed feelings about this development. Which given that I’m modelling a layout set in the 60s into the 70s may sound odd, but for me this isn’t really giving us anything we don’t already have. The JM Design Bullied Open is a perfectly fine model in my view and while I’m sure the IRM model may be a slight upgrade in terms of quality and is obviously RTR, it isn’t going to give us the day and night contrast we had with say the IRM A Class compared to the existing Silver Fox offering. Yes, I get that kit building isn’t for everyone but the JM one comes pre-assembled and just needs a quick blast of a car primer spray to look the part on any layout. 

It does raise a wider question around the handful of suppliers of Irish models and scenarios where the range of models each offers overlaps. To date where that has happened I think the situation has managed itself without any party suffering any great loss but we shouldn’t assume it will always be so. The news that this release is just the first in a range to be based on that underframe means IRM’s product roadmap over the next few years will likely cover almost the entire current JM Design range. I know Mayner posts here and can answer for himself but if he has invested a large sum up front on creating that range, this development could easily make his operation unviable (given his products come with unavoidable customs charges and postal delays for anyone in Ireland or the UK). Losing JM Design (or for that matter Leslie’s Provincial Models who obviously operate in a similar market) would be a real shame and a big loss to the Irish modelling scene were it to happen, especially when there is still so much stuff not yet covered. I would hope the various manufacturers have some sort of gentleman’s agreement to at least give each other a heads up on future plans to avoid anybody being pot-committed to something that could become a non-seller overnight. I’ll almost certainly buy at least a pack of the IRM models and run them alongside the JM ones but I think it’s a pity that, to cite just one example, I’ll have 2 types of Bullied Opens in my loose-coupled rakes while having no passable representation of the Palvans available from anyone to run with them. Personally I’d love to see the glaring gaps in the available range of rolling stock like steam heating vans and bagged cement wagons filled before seeing what are essentially duplicate offerings on the market. Maybe I’m being too idealistic here but this remains a small, niche community and I’d love to see everybody working together to have the widest range of high quality models available.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Leyny

[DJ Dangerous]

2 minutes ago, Leyny said:

Before I begin, let me say I have bought from just about every producer of the modern OO Irish stock - IRM, Murphy’s Models, Silver Fox, JM Design, Provincial Wagons and IFM. As somebody who grew up in an era when there was literally nothing RTR available for Irish modellers that didn’t amount to an insult, I’m grateful to them all for what they have given us but especially IRM who have combined the highest quality models with genuinely world-class customer service. 

I may be in a minority of one here, but I must admit I was a little underwhelmed with this news and have mixed feelings about this development. Which given that I’m modelling a layout set in the 60s into the 70s may sound odd, but for me this isn’t really giving us anything we don’t already have. The JM Design Bullied Open is a perfectly fine model in my view and while I’m sure the IRM model may be a slight upgrade in terms of quality and is obviously RTR, it isn’t going to give us the day and night contrast we had with say the IRM A Class compared to the existing Silver Fox offering. Yes, I get that kit building isn’t for everyone but the JM one comes pre-assembled and just needs a quick blast of a car primer spray to look the part on any layout. 

It does raise a wider question around the handful of suppliers of Irish models and scenarios where the range of models each offers overlaps. To date where that has happened I think the situation has managed itself without any party suffering any great loss but we shouldn’t assume it will always be so. The news that this release is just the first in a range to be based on that underframe means IRM’s product roadmap over the next few years will likely cover almost the entire current JM Design range. I know Mayner posts here and can answer for himself but if he has invested a large sum up front on creating that range, this development could easily make his operation unviable (given his products come with unavoidable customs charges and postal delays for anyone in Ireland or the UK). Losing JM Design (or for that matter Leslie’s Provincial Models who obviously operate in a similar market) would be a real shame and a big loss to the Irish modelling scene were it to happen, especially when there is still so much stuff not yet covered. I would hope the various manufacturers have some sort of gentleman’s agreement to at least give each other a heads up on future plans to avoid anybody being pot-committed to something that could become a non-seller overnight. I’ll almost certainly buy at least a pack of the IRM models and run them alongside the JM ones but I think it’s a pity that, to cite just one example, I’ll have 2 types of Bullied Opens in my loose-coupled rakes while having no passable representation of the Palvans available from anyone to run with them. Personally I’d love to see the glaring gaps in the available range of rolling stock like steam heating vans and bagged cement wagons before seeing what are essentially duplicate offerings on the market. Maybe I’m being too idealistic here but this remains a small, niche community and I’d love to see everybody working together to have the widest range of high quality models available.

 

Not knocking @Mayner's wagons here, nor his business, as I have bought several from him, and they are frikkin' awesome.

John's also a pleasure to deal with, very prompt and professional.

My two takeaways from this IRM announcement are the availability and reliability of the supply, and the utility of both chassis and body for other models.

John does his best but is at the mercy of his suppliers. A launch like this reaches a much larger audience, and opens the door for future launches.

It won't stop me from buying from John nor @leslie10646. If anything, it may grow demand for their OTHER wagons.

I guess it's all subjective.

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, Leyny said:

Before I begin, let me say I have bought from just about every producer of the modern OO Irish stock - IRM, Murphy’s Models, Silver Fox, JM Design, Provincial Wagons and IFM. As somebody who grew up in an era when there was literally nothing RTR available for Irish modellers that didn’t amount to an insult, I’m grateful to them all for what they have given us but especially IRM who have combined the highest quality models with genuinely world-class customer service. 

I may be in a minority of one here, but I must admit I was a little underwhelmed with this news and have mixed feelings about this development. Which given that I’m modelling a layout set in the 60s into the 70s may sound odd, but for me this isn’t really giving us anything we don’t already have. The JM Design Bullied Open is a perfectly fine model in my view and while I’m sure the IRM model may be a slight upgrade in terms of quality and is obviously RTR, it isn’t going to give us the day and night contrast we had with say the IRM A Class compared to the existing Silver Fox offering. Yes, I get that kit building isn’t for everyone but the JM one comes pre-assembled and just needs a quick blast of a car primer spray to look the part on any layout. 

It does raise a wider question around the handful of suppliers of Irish models and scenarios where the range of models each offers overlaps. To date where that has happened I think the situation has managed itself without any party suffering any great loss but we shouldn’t assume it will always be so. The news that this release is just the first in a range to be based on that underframe means IRM’s product roadmap over the next few years will likely cover almost the entire current JM Design range. I know Mayner posts here and can answer for himself but if he has invested a large sum up front on creating that range, this development could easily make his operation unviable (given his products come with unavoidable customs charges and postal delays for anyone in Ireland or the UK). Losing JM Design (or for that matter Leslie’s Provincial Models who obviously operate in a similar market) would be a real shame and a big loss to the Irish modelling scene were it to happen, especially when there is still so much stuff not yet covered. I would hope the various manufacturers have some sort of gentleman’s agreement to at least give each other a heads up on future plans to avoid anybody being pot-committed to something that could become a non-seller overnight. I’ll almost certainly buy at least a pack of the IRM models and run them alongside the JM ones but I think it’s a pity that, to cite just one example, I’ll have 2 types of Bullied Opens in my loose-coupled rakes while having no passable representation of the Palvans available from anyone to run with them. Personally I’d love to see the glaring gaps in the available range of rolling stock like steam heating vans and bagged cement wagons filled before seeing what are essentially duplicate offerings on the market. Maybe I’m being too idealistic here but this remains a small, niche community and I’d love to see everybody working together to have the widest range of high quality models available.

Personally I was not surprised by IRMs announcement of the Bulleid Opens. I knew for some time that IRM was planning to introduce models of CIE stock dating from the mid-1950 hence the focus on high quality 3D printed models of older or more obscure wagons that were unlikely to be viable to produce as injection moulded plastic model.

The JM Design Open is a model of the traditional Irish Standard wooden bodied open introduced up to the mid 1950s as opposed to the new IRM Bulleid Open.

At this stage its difficult to gauge how the introduction of new IRM wagons will impact on sales of existing JM Design models, a high proportion of our repeat customers appear to be collectors who buy 1-2 of each type of wagon when released, rather than building a rake of wagons

Although a number of Irish manufacturers (kit and rtr) ceased operating during during the past 20 years the availability of high quality rtr models and kits of Irish locos and stock is at its highest largely through the efforts of MM and IRM. Before the arrival of MM 201 and B141 modellers were dependent on kitbuding, modified rtr or scratchbuilding to produce models of Irish locos and stock. the high quality rtr models produced by IRM in recent years would have been undreamed of 10 years earlier.

I believe that there is likely to continue to be a place for kit and scratchbuilding despite the arrival of current high quality rtr, its unlikely to be viable to produce models of all the "glaring gaps" in rolling stock due to the relatively small size of market (low demand) and sheer variety of locos and stock that ran on the Irish railways up to the early 2000s. MM and IRM focus on stock were customers are likely to buy a rake of coaches/wagons rather than individual items like a Goods Brake Van, Passenger Brake.

One of the limiting factors on demand is that many modellers are content to run re-painted models models of British wagons and "cannot see the point" in paying a premium for more accurate models of Irish stock. One UK customer to he credit replaces his UK open wagon chassis with the JM Design IRCH Open chassis.

For me the main benefit of the JM Design 3D printed wagons is that it allowed me to fill out my wagon fleet quicker than by scratch or kit building adding a number of wagons I had been planning to build for the past 40 years with minimal effort.

 

 

  

Edited November 1, 2023 by Mayner

[Leyny]

Good to know you at least knew this was coming and it won't leave you in the poorhouse. Also thanks for the clarification that the IRM model will be different to yours, so it isn't actually a duplicate. I do wonder if IRM may find less demand for their vans when they become available than they anticipate on account of yourself and Provincial having been meeting demand for these for some years now. I have about a dozen vans I acquired from both of you and won't be replacing them when the IRM ones come on stream, which will probably limit me to buying a pack or two max despite them being exactly right for my era. 

Hopefully you're right and there will always be a space for the likes of yourself to produce models to cover what IRM and MM don't do. And maybe wider availability of proper Irish stock will eliminate that 'settle for anything' mentality when it comes to wagons in the way it has for locos and coaching stock. 

So anyway, about those Palvans...

[leslie10646]

I thank Leyney for his concern, but anyone who has tried to buy one of the Blessed Oliver’s corrugated opens from Provincial Wagons over the last year has been told “I don’t do that kit any more”!

It was the most obvious wagon for IRM to do, as they were truly ubiquitous, and are an appropriate wagon to hang behind an A, B, or C Class.

IRM broke the news to me gently a while ago and I’ve kept quiet. After 371 sales of the Open, we’ve worn out a brave few moulds!

After the UTA Spoil Wagon, I’d suggest that it was Michael Rayner’s masterpiece – those corrugations took a bit of patience to master. For those of you who haven’t built one, the brake gear (IRM’s protype looks good in this department) is spindly and the kit includes half a dozen STAPLES to fashion it!

So, good luck to IRM, my order for some is going in now!

[Mayner]

J M Design and Leslies sales in terms of the numbers of individual wagons sold are likely to be insignificant in terms of IRM sales of individual wagons. 

Going back to the CIE Palvan in the absence of a rtr model, a reasonable representation can be constructed from the Parkside Dundas kit and some plasticard. The prototype vans used a version of the Bulleid Triangulated underframe but with running and break gear similar to the Parkside model.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

On 29/10/2023 at 3:47 PM, Noel said:

Yip probably indicating the era they belonged to. I never saw a CIE roundel or a Flying Snail logo on the side of any bulleid open wagons. The only thing I'm wondering is did some era of wagons have the lighter buffer arrangements.

Correct. No Bullied wagon ever carried  any logo on the side.

Some of the first had a small snail stencil on the (grey) CHASSIS, but that didn’t last long.

[leslie10646]

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Correct. No Bullied wagon ever carried  any logo on the side.

Some of the first had a small snail stencil on the (grey) CHASSIS, but that didn’t last long.

Come on JB, don't let your predictive typer let you get the Blessed Oliver's surname wrong!

I wonder if ANYONE can produce a photo of one of the corrugateds with a Snail logo, however small? One reason why I sold the kit with NO transfers at all as I was sure you'd never have seen logos, numbers or anything on the chassis after a day or two?

That said, I do like the little builder's plates on the iRM samples.

[jhb171achill]

6 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Come on JB, don't let your predictive typer let you get the Blessed Oliver's surname wrong!

I wonder if ANYONE can produce a photo of one of the corrugateds with a Snail logo, however small? One reason why I sold the kit with NO transfers at all as I was sure you'd never have seen logos, numbers or anything on the chassis after a day or two?

That said, I do like the little builder's plates on the iRM samples.

Few of them had snails -  only the first lot….  I can produce a suitable photo from Fry’s stuff - will try to find it.

Most spent most of their lives with no logos, so your kits are 100% fine!

[Garfield]

18 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

I wonder if ANYONE can produce a photo of one of the corrugateds with a Snail logo, however small?

It looks like you've made it home safely, Leslie - it was good to see you at the show in Blackrock!

There are a few photos of wagons with the Flying Snail on the solebar, including one here: http://www.athyphotos.gallery/railway-station.html

It's the second photo on the left - the wagon is behind three members of staff posing for the camera. If you open the image in a new window you can zoom in and see the logo on the side.

Another one which comes to mind is a shot by George Mahon which can be viewed in the IRRS's Flickr archive (IRRS membership required in order to view): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/50356805096/

Hope that helps!

 

[leslie10646]

My goodness, you're right, Garfield.

Even more interesting in that lot of photos is the one with two ex GNR bulk cement vans on the Barrow Bridge!

Thanks for the heads up.

[Westcorkrailway]

12 hours ago, Garfield said:

It looks like you've made it home safely, Leslie - it was good to see you at the show in Blackrock!

There are a few photos of wagons with the Flying Snail on the solebar, including one here: http://www.athyphotos.gallery/railway-station.html

It's the second photo on the left - the wagon is behind three members of staff posing for the camera. If you open the image in a new window you can zoom in and see the logo on the side.

Another one which comes to mind is a shot by George Mahon which can be viewed in the IRRS's Flickr archive (IRRS membership required in order to view): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/50356805096/

Hope that helps!

 

Pretty sure (can’t remember for certain) I saw a photo of a snail coming through on a wagon being scraped/re-purposed at limerick works near the end of there career

[Sean]

On 30/10/2023 at 12:54 PM, BosKonay said:

Different chassis unfortunately 

Arent they on the ballast chassis?  

[BosKonay]

2 minutes ago, Sean said:

Arent they on the ballast chassis?  

Afraid not either

[Sean]

I guess ye better tool one quickly so  

[leslie10646]

20 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

Afraid not either

Don't rush, Bosk. I like selling double beet kits! And they're not hard to build - ask a few guys on this forum.

[enniscorthyman]

Wonderful to see the Bullied wagons  are next to be produced.They will look really well especially  behind a A class.

[murphaph]

Has there already been discussion about which other wagons are based on this chassis? Any pics for those of us with little clue about wagons from that era?

[Ironroad]

On 30/10/2023 at 11:11 AM, DJ Dangerous said:

How long were the triangulated chassis?

They had a 10' wheelbase,  17' long, and 20' over buffers.

 

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

Has there already been discussion about which other wagons are based on this chassis? Any pics for those of us with little clue about wagons from that era?

Twelve ton H vans  were built on the triangulated chassis  (from circa 1953), and probably Palvans (circa 1964) beyond that I'm clueless and and I'm also very interested to know what else the triangulated chassis was used for.

 

[patrick]

CIE also built flat wagons using the triangulated underframe . Provincial Wagons did a kit.

[flange lubricator]

27 minutes ago, patrick said:

CIE also built flat wagons using the triangulated underframe . Provincial Wagons did a kit.

Yes I think like this