Class 121

[spudfan]

129 received 654E, 1100 hp from 204 in 1984. 204 was withdrawn from traffic in 1984

126 got its engine from 213 in 1988

127 got its engine from 205 in 1987

128 got its engine from 192 in 1988

from the 1994 Irish Railways traction and travel

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by spudfan

[Irishswissernie]

According to Colin Boocock's Locomotive Compendium Ireland, they were re-engined from 1984 on with 1100 bhp 8 645E engines taken from withdrawn C Class locos. One of the reasons was to provide power for 6 coach Mark 3 push-pull sets introduced at that time between Dundalk, Drogheda and Dublin

Ernie

[spudfan]

As an addition to the above, while the book is in my hand. When the 141 baby GMs got the B645E upgrade this is where they came from.

145 from219

151 from 212

153 from 211

154 from 221

157 from 220

163 from215

167 from 214

170 from233

172 from 222

175 from202

 

[jhb171achill]

jhb171Senior was not known for having any interest in things non-steam (though Donegal railcars were of vague interest). Among his "stuff" is but one black'n'white of a 121, obviously taken in a hurry.

The first main line passenger duty they became regular on was the "Enterprise", and this unidentified example is seen on this duty, though I am unaware of the location or date. I suspect it's somewhere in the Portadown - Goraghwood section, as he was doing track upgrading work there at that time.

Every carriage and van green.......naturally, nothing would be black'n'tan for some 18 months into the 121's time.....

The "Indian Summer" of the "Grey'n'Green" era.

Edited June 24, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Railer]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:59 PM, spudfan said:

129 received 654E, 1100 hp from 204 in 1984. 204 was withdrawn from traffic in 1984

126 got its engine from 213 in 1988

127 got its engine from 205 in 1987

128 got its engine from 192 in 1988

from the 1994 Irish Railways traction and travel

 

So basically, just those 4 got the upgrade 645 and rest kept the 567 for their working lives. I mainly wondering what 124 and 134 ended up with then they were withdrawn. As of now I'm thinking the 567, and it's what I'm ordering for my MM locos.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Railer

[flange lubricator]

17 minutes ago, Railer said:

So basically, just those 4 got the upgrade 645 and rest kept the 567 for their working lives. I mainly wondering what 124 and 134 ended up with then they were withdrawn. As of no I'm think the 567 and it's what I'm ordering for my MM locos.

I believe   ( I could be wrong ) but sometime during the 1990's  that some of the remaining 567 block's were converted to 645 , the difference between the two is the cylinder size 567 cylinder bore 8 ¹⁄₂ in (216 mm)/ 645  9 1⁄16 in (230 mm ) this was possibly more for convenience than performance as you only had to keep one set of spares , so chances are that a 121 of 141 in the mid to late 90's all had 645 by default , what difference this made to the sound is beyond my pay grade !!

[BSGSV]

1 hour ago, Railer said:

So basically, just those 4 got the upgrade 645 and rest kept the 567 for their working lives. I mainly wondering what 124 and 134 ended up with then they were withdrawn. As of no I'm think the 567 and it's what I'm ordering for my MM locos.

124 and 134 both have 567 engine blocks originally on 141's.

[Vlak]

The main difference in the 567 and 645 engines fitted to the Small GMs (including the 121s) was the engine idle & max power engine RPM settings, which gave a different sound. 

The EMD 567s fitted to most 121s and 141s were set to idle at 275rpm with a maximum power of 835rpm;

The EMD 645s fitted to the 181s & C class (and subsequently fitted to some 121 & 141s) were set to idle at 315rpm with a maximum power of 904rpm.

Flage Lubricator is correct about 567 engines being fitted with 645 power packs, however it did not change the idle speed, max power speed or sound of the 567 engines, it was just for the sake of common components. 

Essentially if you heard a 121 fitted with a 645 engine it's idle speed would be higher ticking over than a conventional 567 engine, and it's engine speed would be higher when on full power. Hopefully this makes some sense(!), but perhaps these few examples below may help illustrate the point. 

146 (fitted with 567 engine with 645 power packs) idling: 

 

142 (fitted with 645 engine) idling (notice the higher pitch from the engine compared to 146):

 

And to keep this thread on subject see example of 124 + 134 paired together, both having the 567 engines fitted:

 

[flange lubricator]

The one thing I do remember in particular about the 121 class  in regard to sound was when they pulled in at a station was a distinctive knocking noise from the loco , this was the air compressor rebuilding the air pressure this was louder than on the other B Gm’s possibly as they may have had a different on board air compressor on the 121 class , don’t know if this can be recreated on a sound chip . 

[RKX]

Confusing (for me, at least) on which 121s to pre-order, as all the ads just show the CAD pic (apart from pics of the version with the IE livery - first three released). 

The CIE versions are what interest me, but would like to see pics of the super train and black and tans, to see exactly what suits. 

Any idea on when the ads might be updated with pics of the model on sale? 

[DiveController]

@RKX Technically, CIE having been formed in 1945 , all liveries of the 121 delivered in 1961 would be CIE. The original yellow and grey livery initially had a flying snail, no handrails, side vent on the body, tablet snatcher etc and this was placed in stages several year later by the Black n Tan livery some of which had handrails or none as they were gradually added. After 1972 the super train livery began to appear on the loco gradually as they were serviced/overhauled over the years following. Grey & yellow usually ran singly whereas (sometimes) BnT & superrtain would run in multiple with each other or 141s

Supertrain livery in consist with side handrails, side vent between the 129s over the bogies, body vents on the engines covers, hand rails, tablet snatchers still in place , original small marker lights (replaced in the 2000s with LEDS) window on the 'back' overlooking the bonnet side of the cab) still in existence

Photo Jeremy Chapter Flickr

 

BnT livery, no side handrails on B127 (yet) most other things per the loco above except this this has sand filler boxes on the 'rear' of the bonnet (nearest that coach) that were removed at various times (not on ST livery above) 

Brian Flannigan Flickr (1971)

 

122 in ST 1987 (just before IR livery introduced)

Neil Smith on Flickr 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by DiveController

[Warbonnet]

32 minutes ago, RKX said:

Confusing (for me, at least) on which 121s to pre-order, as all the ads just show the CAD pic (apart from pics of the version with the IE livery - first three released). 

The CIE versions are what interest me, but would like to see pics of the super train and black and tans, to see exactly what suits. 

Any idea on when the ads might be updated with pics of the model on sale? 

Hi RKX,

We are awaiting stock or images of decoration samples of these models before we can add pictures. If you outline what time frame you’re interested in I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

Cheers!

Fran

[flange lubricator]

8 minutes ago, DiveController said:

@RKX Technically, CIE having been formed in 1945 , all liveries of the 121 delivered in 1961 would be CIE. The original yellow and grey livery initially had a flying snail, no handrails, side vent on the body, tablet snatcher etc and this was placed in stages several year later by the Black n Tan livery some of which had handrails or none as they were gradually added. After 1972 the super train livery began to appear on the loco gradually as they were serviced/overhauled over the years following. Grey & yellow usually ran singly whereas (sometimes) BnT & superrtain would run in multiple with each other or 141s

Supertrain livery in consist with side handrails, side vent between the 129s over the bogies, body vents on the engines covers, hand rails, tablet snatchers still in place , original small marker lights (replaced in the 2000s with LEDS) window on the 'back' overlooking the bonnet side of the cab) still in existence

Photo Jeremy Chapter Flickr

  

Also the larger centre window and the snatcher on the 121 is sitting at an angle to the body side which can be clearly seen in this picture on 129 , on the other locos  A , 141 , 181 and B201s the snatcher would sit flush to the body side 

[DiveController]

Good spot. I was just trying to put up the basics quickly to help him 'til the lads get some info on the site. Now I'll have to go and find a shot of the smaller window on the 121. You're killing me flange 

 

EDIT; OK, so here narrow center window on 134 much later in IE livery. Didn't they arrive with the narrower window and was this larger one substituted on some of the locos only?

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

I hadn't noticed that smaller window before. I think they were all initially with three windows same size.

[RKX]

11 hours ago, DiveController said:

@RKX Technically, CIE having been formed in 1945 , all liveries of the 121 delivered in 1961 would be CIE. The original yellow and grey livery initially had a flying snail, no handrails, side vent on the body, tablet snatcher etc and this was placed in stages several year later by the Black n Tan livery some of which had handrails or none as they were gradually added. After 1972 the super train livery began to appear on the loco gradually as they were serviced/overhauled over the years following. Grey & yellow usually ran singly whereas (sometimes) BnT & superrtain would run in multiple with each other or 141s

Supertrain livery in consist with side handrails, side vent between the 129s over the bogies, body vents on the engines covers, hand rails, tablet snatchers still in place , original small marker lights (replaced in the 2000s with LEDS) window on the 'back' overlooking the bonnet side of the cab) still in existence

Photo Jeremy Chapter Flickr

 

BnT livery, no side handrails on B127 (yet) most other things per the loco above except this this has sand filler boxes on the 'rear' of the bonnet (nearest that coach) that were removed at various times (not on ST livery above) 

Brian Flannigan Flickr (1971)

 

122 in ST 1987 (just before IR livery introduced)

Neil Smith on Flickr 

 

That excellent information and clears a lot up for me. Thanks for taking the time to post in such detail, DiveController

11 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi RKX,

We are awaiting stock or images of decoration samples of these models before we can add pictures. If you outline what time frame you’re interested in I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

Cheers!

Fran

Thanks Fran, 

I'm interested in anything 80s, early 90s. You produce it, and I'll buy it.

Edited July 4, 2020 by RKX

[Warbonnet]

1 hour ago, RKX said:

That excellent information and clears a lot up for me. Thanks for taking the time to post in such detail. 

Thanks Fran, 

I'm interested in anything 80s, early 90s. You produce it, and I'll buy it.

No problem, SuperTrain and IR are the liveries for you, for both 121 and A.

Cheers!

Fran

[spudfan]

10 hours ago, RKX said:

That excellent information and clears a lot up for me. Thanks for taking the time to post in such detail. 

Thanks Fran, 

I'm interested in anything 80s, early 90s. You produce it, and I'll buy it.

knocks my Mrs out of the equation....

[DiveController]

On 7/3/2020 at 5:20 PM, jhb171achill said:

I hadn't noticed that smaller window before. I think they were all initially with three windows same size.

Yes, I think you're right. Some of the IR version had a narrower center window , a spare from something that I don't recall. I not sure if there was a reason that the center window in particular needed replacement. Something will remind us I'm sure

 

[BSGSV]

On 7/3/2020 at 11:20 PM, jhb171achill said:

I hadn't noticed that smaller window before. I think they were all initially with three windows same size.

Looks like a 141 centre window on its side.

Are there photos of any with the narrow centre window that aren't one of the refurbished examples (123, 124, 131, 134)? 

[jhb171achill]

12 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

Looks like a 141 centre window on its side.

Are there photos of any with the narrow centre window that aren't one of the refurbished examples (123, 124, 131, 134)? 

Actually, it does. Certainly non-standard / Could it be a one-off?

Edited July 6, 2020 by jhb171achill

[DiveController]

9 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Looks like a 141 centre window on its side.

Are there photos of any with the narrow centre window that aren't one of the refurbished examples (123, 124, 131, 134)? 

I think you're right about the 141 window. I don't know what you mean about refurbished but 126, 128, 129, 130, 133 had it also, it's not a one off

Edited July 6, 2020 by DiveController

[flange lubricator]

7 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I think you're right about the 141 window. I don't know what you mean about refurbished but 126, 128, 129, 130, 133 had it also, it's not a one off

I think all of the 121 class had the modified smaller window except 125 . 

[Garfield]

52 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I think you're right about the 141 window. I don't know what you mean about refurbished but 126, 128, 129, 130, 133 had it also, it's not a one off

Presumably the cab refurbishment which saw the two central rear windows being plated over?

[flange lubricator]

3 minutes ago, Garfield said:

Presumably the cab refurbishment which saw the two central rear windows being plated over?

No this was an earlier mod carried out to all the 121's except 125 . the rear cab windows being covered over came much later and was only carried out to a few locos .

 

[DiveController]

The 1970s I would guess as most of the modified windows appear to be on super train or later livery. I presume this was just a midlife refurb or was it intended to upgrade equipment for CAWS etc. ?

It don't see MU sockets  on anything earlier than ST livery, the only BnT running in multiple seem to be either ST-ST (or later) or ST-still in BnT livery coupled together

EDIT: Now both MM0125 and MM0131 in BnT livery on the IRM site claim to have MU sockets present (I know this is an outline and hasn't been fully updated with picture and checked for accuracy yet) 

Edited July 8, 2020 by DiveController

[BSGSV]

13 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

No this was an earlier mod carried out to all the 121's except 125 . the rear cab windows being covered over came much later and was only carried out to a few locos .

 

Thanks to you and Dive Controller for the information. I suspect if 125 didn't get changed, it was possibly a result of body overhauls in the 90's.

[flange lubricator]

I think DiveController is on the money with regard to the fitting of CAWS in the  mid 1980’s as this would coincide with this modification, I think the large and small windows have been followed by Paddy Murphy in his 121 models 

[BSGSV]

On 7/7/2020 at 3:55 PM, flange lubricator said:

I think DiveController is on the money with regard to the fitting of CAWS in the  mid 1980’s as this would coincide with this modification, I think the large and small windows have been followed by Paddy Murphy in his 121 models 

I had a look through some of my photos, and CAWS was fitted while the larger middle window was still there. The smaller window seems to be more late-80's and, aside from 126, the photos I found so far all have the IR points logo and white stripes. 126 had a small window by Auguest 1988 and was still in Supertrain livery. Aside from it, I have seen no photos where the grills on the solebar co-exist with the small middle window. I have no proof, but the small window may co-incide with mods for working Mk.3 push-pulls? One of the side boxes, beside the cabs, also seems to have got taller about the same time.

Edited July 17, 2020 by BSGSV

[DiveController]

Any representative photo of the side boxes? What were they for?

[BSGSV]

23 hours ago, DiveController said:

Any representative photo of the side boxes? What were they for?

The boxes contained brake valves certainly, maybe CAWS/Radio equipment too - my memory is vague on the latter. Size on both sides varied between periods - original, when fitted for multi, air brakes, push pull.

[Noel]

On 7/3/2020 at 10:39 PM, DiveController said:

 

122 in ST 1987 (just before IR livery introduced)

Neil Smith on Flickr 

 

Currently on the bench 122 in Hybrid CIE Supertrain livery with IR points logo along the side during the supposed transition period before the IR tippex stripes were painted on. A few more days work and she'll be ready to consist with the anticipated Murphy Model 121 locos due any day now. They may well run before 122 does.

[WRENNEIRE]

Is that a Shapeways jobbie Noel or something you had 3D printed?

[mphoey]

6 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Is that a Shapeways jobbie Noel or something you had 3D printed?

looks 3d printed with the lines

[Noel]

39 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Is that a Shapeways jobbie Noel or something you had 3D printed?

Hi Dave, Yes Shapeways indeed. As was this fellow. A pal of mine has a seriously good fine resolution 3D printer and has promised to print some other rolling stock items for me. The Murphy Models 121s will probably arrive before I have 122 and B130 finished. In the middle of the wire grab rails and glazing at the moment.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Noel