CIE 30 Ton Brake Van

[Thameslink]

I’m delighted with the 30 Ton Brake Van I ordered from Michael Brady of Irish Model railways buy and sell. Hooked it up to the rear of my IRM ballast wagons…

My question is, when were the brake vans phased out on the CIE system?

[jhb171achill]

Loose coupled goods (thus with brake vans) were largely gone by 1976, though a few goods transfers up from North Wall had them a short time longer. For trains "down the country", they were commonplace up to 1975, but in that year four lines, two of them trunk routes, were closed (North Kerry, Burma Road, Loughrea and Ardee). All four used these vans. The following year the Castleisland branch closed and services became fewer on the Limerick - Claremorris line. There were less vans after that.

A note on the livery above. Seemingly like most modelsa, the "stripy" bit needs correction - a black marker pen will do this easily! The FLAT part of the bodyside immediately above and below the protruding "stripy" ducket should be black, whether the van is in 1973-70 grey, or 1970-onwards brown. On the above, the patch below it is brown, and the patch above it is stripy. The brown on the wagons is accurate - on the van it's a bit reddish. Wagon brown started to becomne a little more reddish around 1990.

Nice little van, all the same - good luck with it!

[Noel]

2 hours ago, Thameslink said:

I’m delighted with the 30 Ton Brake Van I ordered from Michael Brady of Irish Model railways buy and sell. Hooked it up to the rear of my IRM ballast wagons…

My question is, when were the brake vans phased out on the CIE system?

I have three of his brake vans, one oxide red and two in grey. Love them, perfect for my era, they have been joined by JM designs latest model

IFM 20 ton version in grey

IFM 20 ton version in oxide red

JM Design 20 ton Version CIE grey. Finer resolution on correct chassis instead of dapol donor

I still haven't got around to a brass SSM kit I bought about 6 years ago!

These specialist producers have been excellent source for models for my era. Thank you.

 

[Noel]

PS: The planked ones look better for 3D than the panelled versions

[jhb171achill]

I like those JM ones too - I've two in "pre-stripes" grey; but again, black above and below the stripes where they exist...........

The JM ones have all the interior detail too, an excellent touch as dare i say it, many younger modellers might wonder exactly what they looked like inside!

When the fire was lit in the little stove they were surprisingly cosy, when not, they were uncomfortable, very noisy and draughty!

[jhb171achill]

Excuse the awful diagram; this is the way the markings were. Easy with a black marker!

 

[Pete00018]

There was at least one of the brake vans still in use in 2004 for the oil transfer between Alexander Rd and Heuston. I have a hi8 film somewhere of it, will have to dig it out.

[irishthump]

Can I ask how you contacted him to order?

[Westcorkrailway]

through email

 

Albiet it can be very slow…I’m still waiting for an invoice for some stuff I have on order

[Mayner]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:26 AM, jhb171achill said:

Loose coupled goods (thus with brake vans) were largely gone by 1976, though a few goods transfers up from North Wall had them a short time longer. For trains "down the country", they were commonplace up to 1975, but in that year four lines, two of them trunk routes, were closed (North Kerry, Burma Road, Loughrea and Ardee). All four used these vans. The following year the Castleisland branch closed and services became fewer on the Limerick - Claremorris line. There were less vans after that.

A note on the livery above. Seemingly like most modelsa, the "stripy" bit needs correction - a black marker pen will do this easily! The FLAT part of the bodyside immediately above and below the protruding "stripy" ducket should be black, whether the van is in 1973-70 grey, or 1970-onwards brown. On the above, the patch below it is brown, and the patch above it is stripy. The brown on the wagons is accurate - on the van it's a bit reddish. Wagon brown started to becomne a little more reddish around 1990.

Nice little van, all the same - good luck with it!

30T Goods Brakes were used in revenue service on sugar beet trains until the ending of loose coupled operation following the introduction of the Beet Double wagons in 1985.

Dublin-Tralee was the last long distance main line goods train to go over to Liner Operation after a coupling broke on a Heuston Goods-Tralee goods while climbing the Gullet to Inchacore and the train ran back into the passenger station and was wrecked.

Loose coupled Cross Border (Dundalk-Adelaide) goods trains (with modern wagons & 30T Brakes continued to operate for some years after CIEs goods services went over to Liner Train operation.

The duckets on the 20T & 30T Brake vans were different in profile and warning stripe arrangement.

The 20T vans originally had vertical planked duckets, some were later covered in metal sheeting and some replaced with pressed metal duckets.

On some 20T vans the vertical body planking was replaced by plywood, some balconies appear to to have been sheeted in ply others retained the vertical planking. 

 

 

The ducket and markings on the 30T Brakes appear to be quite different to the sheet metal duckets used on 20T Brakes

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Mayner

[Blaine]

On 1/8/2022 at 4:16 PM, Thameslink said:

 

 

Is it me or does this look a lot like one of these with wheels under it.... The real one also didn't have a bar between the axleboxes, never mind bent like a Banana...

 

 

I don't know, the top level stuff that IRM are producing for the Irish Outline market that's easily available, no chasing invoices, waiting on emails, dealing with a very part time operation on every level -  they are easily available provided you order promptly, even can pay by instalments, yet people tolerate this level of model - still

I think IRM should just admit defeat now, close up, find something else to do, I hear the railways in East Africa are now popular and models are in demand despite the poor quality cottage industries producing stuff, a new direction - EARM maybe?

[Sean]

Please do put up a link to where we can order an IRM 30T brake van and have it promptly dispatched to us with no messing about.

 

Some of the last items of stock I need to complete my layout are NOT available from irm 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Sean

[DJ Dangerous]

59 minutes ago, Sean said:

Please do put up a link to where we can order an IRM 30T brake van and have it promptly dispatched to us with no messing about.

 

Some of the last items of stock I need to complete my layout are NOT available from irm 

 

20 Ton:

https://jmdesignmodelrailways.com/products/copy-of-cie-20t-brake-van-light-grey-23580

[Sean]

Not an IRM brake van and a similar lead time to any of the other Irish brake vans.

[DJ Dangerous]

9 minutes ago, Sean said:

Not an IRM brake van and a similar lead time to any of the other Irish brake vans.

 

Don't be shitty.

IRM haven't yet released a brake van, and nobody says that they have.

You want a highly detailed and prototypically accurate brake van, put your money where your mouth is and pick up a JMD van.

No fuss, super communication, no waiting for invoices, no confusion, and it's a model rather than a toy.

 

[Sean]

I don't think I would consider either version to be a toy really and in fairness there's also a little bit of a difference in price point (when all import fees paid) which might account for the few differences in accuracy and quality.

 

Objectively speaking they are both 3d printed brake vans with a similar advertised wait time once you have placed an order. It's an entirely different ball game to irm. Who's models I can literally walk into a shop and buy on the spot for cash money whereas the selection of available models will be far smaller than what I can get from cottage industry.

 

Also importantly they are models of two different types of brake van and are differently detailed accordingly. 

 

I own neither and don't speak for the quality or detail of either. the post isn't intended to thrash or poo poo either of these manufacturers rather to highlight than the only way to get certain desired models are via "poor quality cottage industries" I was not really comparing or questioning the quality of either product as both manufacturers seem to have tons of satisfied customers and it's not really the point.

Without these so called cottage industries we would be without a lot of Irish rolling stock that a lot of modellers hold as highly desirable.

 

The manufacturer of the 30t above also offer what is probably the best RTR curtainside cement available at the moment. IRM grade ones simply are not available anywhere.

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Sean

[DJ Dangerous]

The price point is likely to be a sticking point for many on the JMD vans, but for me it was quality worth the sacrifice.

IFM filled a niche, much like Silver Fox, and if a 30 Ton brakevan is specifically what you need, then IFM are the only show in town.

However, if it's a brakevan you need, rather than a 30 Ton brakevan, it's a question of deciding on quality vs. price. You either pay for JMD quality or accept a lower grade IFM model at a lower cost.

Comparing the two is like comparing a Silver Fox A Class and an IRM A Class, or a Lima 201 and a Murphy 201 - without the issue of the price point.

It's a shame that IFM disappeared for five or ten years, stopped dealing with emails etc, as they were a great product at the time.

Things have moved on since, and the chunky designs and incorrect chassis which would have been more than acceptable a decade ago no longer cut the cheese due to the quality of rolling stock available from IRM, MM, JMD etc.

Again, it's quality vs. price at the end of the day.

[Sean]

Some good points. I'm happy with silver fox type compromises a lot of the time as I more like to play trains than to collect models. Most of the stock on my inglenook layout is built at some sort of comprise to the Irish prototypes. But I also want a shit load of wagons so it's kind of acceptable to me. At least the ifm stuff is made from the ground up as opposed to the silver fox mantra of let's convert Hornby stuff.

Brake vans are actually something I want to look more accurate as I have a good few br ones that I just can't bring myself to converting as they all look a bit off to me. And in comparing prices the difference is almost entirely attributed to shipping and tax. Which to be fair is entirely out of JMs control.

 

[flange lubricator]

While JM Designs products are a little on the pricey side when one take's into account Tax and Carriage  the products are absolutely superb on quality and accuracy the brake vans are well worth the money all things considered .

[StevieB]

9 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

The price point is likely to be a sticking point for many on the JMD vans, but for me it was quality worth the sacrifice.

IFM filled a niche, much like Silver Fox, and if a 30 Ton brakevan is specifically what you need, then IFM are the only show in town.

However, if it's a brakevan you need, rather than a 30 Ton brakevan, it's a question of deciding on quality vs. price. You either pay for JMD quality or accept a lower grade IFM model at a lower cost.

Comparing the two is like comparing a Silver Fox A Class and an IRM A Class, or a Lima 201 and a Murphy 201 - without the issue of the price point.

It's a shame that IFM disappeared for five or ten years, stopped dealing with emails etc, as they were a great product at the time.

Things have moved on since, and the chunky designs and incorrect chassis which would have been more than acceptable a decade ago no longer cut the cheese due to the quality of rolling stock available from IRM, MM, JMD etc.

Again, it's quality vs. price at the end of the day.

Tom Brady of IFM still does produce stuff if you ask him nicely. He does have a Facebook page and there is almost always something of his on eBay. I recently bought two palvans from him. They fill a gap in the market

Stephen

Edited August 5, 2022 by StevieB
Added text

[Mayner]

Studio Scale Models 30T Brake Van kit http://www.studio-scale-models.com › Brake30 is a reasonably inexpensive option at for modelling one of these vans. The kit is relatively simple to assemble and includes a Dapol Prestwin chassis complete with wheels and couplings, body folds up from one piece of brass and can be assembled by gluing, no soldering required.

 

[DSERetc]

There is a 25 ton brake van in Downpatrick, NCC 33(UT-NIR 2033). Did it or its type ever run south of the border?  It is similar to an LMS - BR type of brake van with the chassis longer than the bodywork.

DSERetc

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, DSERetc said:

There is a 25 ton brake van in Downpatrick, NCC 33(UT-NIR 2033). Did it or its type ever run south of the border?  It is similar to an LMS - BR type of brake van with the chassis longer than the bodywork.

DSERetc

Nor aware of any like this. Most Irish vans were fully enclosed or verandah-ended flush with the chassis. The SLNC had a few which were vaguely close to another LMS style. Images courtesy SVR and Ernie. We really do need a book on Irish wagons and brake vans - Des Coakham would have been just the chap for the job. 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Galteemore

[Pete00018]

On 1/8/2022 at 6:46 PM, Noel said:

I have three of his brake vans, one oxide red and two in grey. Love them, perfect for my era, they have been joined by JM designs latest model

IFM 20 ton version in grey

IFM 20 ton version in oxide red

JM Design 20 ton Version CIE grey. Finer resolution on correct chassis instead of dapol donor

I still haven't got around to a brass SSM kit I bought about 6 years ago!

These specialist producers have been excellent source for models for my era. Thank you.

 

Hi, Would the W irons, axle box and springs have been painted grey with the rest of the vehicle IRL? 

 

[Galteemore]

11 minutes ago, Pete00018 said:

Hi, Would the W irons, axle box and springs have been painted grey with the rest of the vehicle IRL? 

 

Yes. Quickly weathered to a darker effect.

[DJ Dangerous]

On 5/8/2022 at 10:05 AM, StevieB said:

Tom Brady of IFM still does produce stuff if you ask him nicely. He does have a Facebook page and there is almost always something of his on eBay. I recently bought two palvans from him. They fill a gap in the market

Stephen

 

Yeah, I noticed him reappear the last six months or so, but the prior hiatus was poorly timed.

His website has been down for years, I only get onto FB once every couple of months, and he wasn't replying to emails while vanished, so I missed out on the opportunity to buy from him.

Good to see his stuff on eBay these days, though.

@Noel, what confused you about my post?

It was pretty straightforward.

Or was that just you with the passive aggressive flaming again?

[Noel]

4 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Or was that just you with the passive aggressive flaming again?

Chill Dave. Best wishes to you on this gloriously sunny afternoon.

On 4/8/2022 at 11:27 PM, DJ Dangerous said:

Don't be shitty.

[WRENNEIRE]

I heard IRM are thinking of doing 1:1 handbags girls  

[Blaine]

On 5/8/2022 at 10:05 AM, StevieB said:

Tom Brady of IFM still does produce stuff if you ask him nicely. He does have a Facebook page and there is almost always something of his on eBay. I recently bought two palvans from him. They fill a gap in the market

 

Inbetween being one of, if not the greatest NFL players of all time, he is an Irish Model Railway enthusiast!!! Who knew. Although his touchdown passes to Rob Gronkowski are better than his models any day

[Niles]

On 5/8/2022 at 3:57 PM, DSERetc said:

There is a 25 ton brake van in Downpatrick, NCC 33(UT-NIR 2033). Did it or its type ever run south of the border?  It is similar to an LMS - BR type of brake van with the chassis longer than the bodywork.

DSERetc

Possibly might have if a UTA breakdown crane was loaned to CIE? I know CIE ones worked north, plausible the inverse might have happened. 

[jhb171achill]

On 5/8/2022 at 3:57 PM, DSERetc said:

There is a 25 ton brake van in Downpatrick, NCC 33(UT-NIR 2033). Did it or its type ever run south of the border?  It is similar to an LMS - BR type of brake van with the chassis longer than the bodywork.

DSERetc

That NCC van may have reached Dundalk in UTA days on a ballast train, but nowhere else more southerly. They were rarely seen even on the GN section of the UTA / NIR - the UTA abolished goods trains in 1965 and thereafter all goods trains in the north were CIE, with CIE vans. Even for ballast trains, a couple of old GNR vans, like the zebra-painted "Ivan" at Whitehead, were retained for ballast operations.

On 5/8/2022 at 5:07 PM, Galteemore said:

Nor aware of any like this. Most Irish vans were fully enclosed or verandah-ended flush with the chassis. The SLNC had a few which were vaguely close to another LMS style. Images courtesy SVR and Ernie. We really do need a book on Irish wagons and brake vans - Des Coakham would have been just the chap for the job. 

 

 

No long-wheelbase types like this ran in Ireland. To make this one reasonably acceptable for a generic "Irish" type, a chunk would have to be taken out of the middle.

On 5/8/2022 at 6:32 PM, Pete00018 said:

Hi, Would the W irons, axle box and springs have been painted grey with the rest of the vehicle IRL? 

 

Yes. As with all CIE wagons (and most from other irish companies), "W" irons, chassis, buffers and the whole lot, plus the roof, were painted the body colour. Brown chassis and all the bits for brown-liveried wagons (i.e. those painted after 1970) and grey for everything else.

 

[DJ Dangerous]

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Chill Dave. Best wishes to you on this gloriously sunny afternoon.

 

You're insincerity knows no bounds, @Noel. It's a good job that most forum members here are too polite to call you out on your duplicity, but don't worry, as I've said before, I'm your moral police, here to highlight all of your ill-fated passive aggressive attempts at flaming. The bottom line is, before you click on "Submit Reply", ask yourself this: Will DJ call me out for being shitty again, or will this one slip under the radar?

[RedRich]

I'll hold your jacket DJ.

Rich,

 

[Garfield]

Hi folks,

Can we leave the switchblades and knuckle-dusters at the front door and get the thread back on topic?

Thanks!

[Fiacra]

Was looking out the window of my house here in Oughterard (Co. Galway) a minute ago and, quite unexpectedly, saw a brake van on the back of truck pass by! Presumably on its way out to the crew at Maam Cross?