IRM Steam Speculation

[GSR 800]

13 minutes ago, Killian Keane said:

If NG is on the table, a one of these would kill multiple birds with the one stone

Maybe some T&D?

And one of my favourites..

[Patrick Davey]

1 hour ago, Killian Keane said:

If NG is on the table, a one of these would kill multiple birds with the one stone

Unlikely, unfortunately, but I had previously mentioned a Ballymena & Larne Railway starter set so it's good to see someone else has the same idea.......

[NorthWallDocker]

On 9/12/2022 at 12:44 PM, Killian Keane said:

If NG is on the table, one of these would kill multiple birds with the one stone

David Hurst, proprietor of Model Engine Works, offers a very affordable kit that can use a Halling motor bogie.  http://modelengineworks.blogspot.com/2022/04/castlederg-and-victoria-bridge-tramway.html
 

[skinner75]

Whatever is going to be released, it'll give me a chance to get the accounts back into the black! 
I'd have no interest in steam at all, as for me, my earliest memories of the railway is from around 1980 Connolly station, and plenty of GMs and Metrovicks in action! On a Sunday, my uncle would take me for a trip out to Howth, Bray, or Dun Laoghaire - I can remember him taking me on the DART on its first day of operation too

[DiveController]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:42 AM, skinner75 said:

Whatever is going to be released, it'll give me a chance to get the accounts back into the black! 
I'd have no interest in steam at all, as for me, my earliest memories of the railway is from around 1980 Connolly station, and plenty of GMs and Metrovicks in action! On a Sunday, my uncle would take me for a trip out to Howth, Bray, or Dun Laoghaire - I can remember him taking me on the DART on its first day of operation too

This is what concerns me most regarding future modelling of Irish railways. While there seems to be something of a following for the  pre-grouping era in GB, there seems to be fewer who do and will remember or have any nostalgic association with early CIE, let alone the GSR, or GSWR ....

Not withstanding what IRM have achieved in 5 years which is a good business model and an innovative and quality series of products, there has really not been any readily available early period traction, track or stock that might revive interest in that era  

Edited December 13, 2022 by DiveController

[Colin R]

29 minutes ago, DiveController said:

This is what concerns me most regarding future modelling of Irish railways. While there seems to be something of a following for the  pre-grouping era in GB, there seem to be fewer who do and will remember or have any nostalgic association with early CIE, let alone the GSR, or GSWR ....

Not withstanding what IRM have achieved in 5 years which is a good business model and an innovative and quality series of products, there has really not been any readily available early period traction, track or stock that might revive interest in that era  

The problem will come, once all the current Irish Railway locos, carriage and good stock have been made available, where do you go to? sure popular modelling has alway followed what is currently out there on the mainline as it reminds us of what is out there to be seen.

Purley as a suggestion you understand, but you could then go back and visit all the heritage sites, Cultra, Whitehead and Downpatrick to start with, to see what they have. 

However going back to the days of steam, I am at more of a disadvantage that most of you guys are In Ireland since I live over the waters in Kent, England.

That said my interest has alway been the Donegal (why? I don't think I could give you a sensible answer etc that I happen to like big red steam locos), but the more research I do the more interest I get in the general Irish rail scene. So much so that if I had the space something based on Strabane could be considered for a model, having both gauges of 12mm and 21mm on it.

Colin Rainsbury    

[DiveController]

6 minutes ago, Colin R said:

The problem will come, once all the current Irish Railway locos, carriage and good stock have been made available, where do you go to? sure popular modelling has alway followed what is currently out there on the mainline as it reminds us of what is out there to be seen.

Purley as a suggestion you understand, but you could then go back and visit all the heritage sites, Cultra, Whitehead and Downpatrick to start with, to see what they have. 

However going back to the days of steam, I am at more of a disadvantage that most of you guys are In Ireland since I live over the waters in Kent, England.  

That's an interesting point, Colin. At the rate IRM are going (God Bless Them) , they will have covered all the 'modern' stock within another 5 years.

Regretably, in that decade we will no doubt have lost another prototype or two and a lot more period modelling interest. At the risk of repeating what I have said before some models might help preserve the remaining interest in the earlier Irish scene as the IRM models have demonstrated over the last 5 years. So I am hoping to see these sooner than later 

[Ironroad]

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

That's an interesting point, Colin. At the rate IRM are going (God Bless Them) , they will have covered all the 'modern' stock within another 5 years.

Regretably, in that decade we will no doubt have lost another prototype or two and a lot more period modelling interest. 

Most certainly the interest will probably diminish as we will have also have lost most or all of the generation that remember something of the 50's & 60's.   I particularly remember travelling behind a Jeep. Will I ever see a model, sadly probably not.  It's a pity the offering of products has not been a bit more balanced.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Ironroad
typo

[jhb171achill]

I have to say that in terms of pre-1960 models, if the posts here are any indication, or the number of enquiries I get from modellers a third my age in some cases about what ran with what back then, the interest levels and knowledge base in the “grey’n’green” era seems to be rising over the past few years - small though it is in the grand scheme of railway modelling. 

The recent efforts of Messrs. IRM, Provincial, JM & OO will no doubt have helped immensely.

One doesn’t have to remember this era personally. It is an era which is by far my personal biggest interest, and that of many younger than me, but my very earliest railway memories are from about 1961.

[murphaph]

I agree with Jonathan. I have no personal recollection of anything before the mid 80's but the grey and green era is my "other" era. I will buy stock from around 1960-1962 (end of steam) and 1994-1995 and nothing in between because well, you have to draw a line somewhere. When I came back into the hobby the interest in grey n green wasn't there at all. The wonderful A Class and grey 121s changed that for me and I look forward to more rolling stock from that era too. 

[Flying Snail]

Have to say I agree with the sentiments above. Like Phil, my memories only go back to the 80s and my favourite era is the railway of my teens in the early to mid 90s, but I've also bought some of the early A class and 121s which has got me interested in the early stuff. In my case, I'm also dealing with space restrictions and I've realised that Mk3s and 42' flats take up more space than 6-wheelers and covered vans. I also grew up near the old WCIR line and my interest in history has me now looking at WCIR, GS&WR, GSR etc. 

Speaking of history I reckon the RPSI, Downpatrick etc. will also act as a gateway to the earlier eras as people that get an interest in a historic loco or item of rolling stock that they see there and start digging into its past life in traffic ... so the likes of the Jeep will continue to gain new fans in the modelling community!

Edited December 14, 2022 by Flying Snail

[Westcorkrailway]

12 hours ago, DiveController said:

This is what concerns me most regarding future modelling of Irish railways. While there seems to be something of a following for the  pre-grouping era in GB, there seems to be fewer who do and will remember or have any nostalgic association with early CIE, let alone the GSR, or GSWR ....

Not withstanding what IRM have achieved in 5 years which is a good business model and an innovative and quality series of products, there has really not been any readily available early period traction, track or stock that might revive interest in that era  

most young fellas start out with Hornby English steam trains….so when they go irish…..that’s what they probobly hope to find!

 

[Westcorkrailway]

Sher look at what use early 60s modellers we’re able to do up to now. 

(this is stuff from a collection in west cork territory…it ain’t mine unfortunately) I’m told then green on C212 is very accurate!

Edited December 14, 2022 by Westcorkrailway

[GSR 800]

1950s-1960s is my era and seems to be for many modellers in the younger age group. I started with british steam from hornby. Always liked steam more than diesel, and when I was given the lend of A Second Glance there was no looking back! RPSI tours certainly helped to cement that, having seen 186 and 4 at a young age.

I suppose it helps that the modern era is dominated by the 22000s (though I'll almost certainly buy a set) which is far less interesting compared to the 50s and 60s which has such a rich variety of steam and diesel power along with a massive range of rolling stock to consider.

I'm partial to the early diesels and enjoy the reliable running of the Murphys and the IRM 141s, 121s and A's but steam remains king, and once IRM is producing rtr steam the bank account will look worse than your man sam bankman fried who lost his entire net worth in a weekend when his ponzi scheme collapsed.

Irish locomotive models are a better investment than crypto Sam....

Edited December 14, 2022 by GSR 800

[skinner75]

Once I've all bases covered with diesel locos & stock that ran with them, I'm done, and my bank account can finally take a long overdue breather!!

[Mayner]

13 hours ago, DiveController said:

This is what concerns me most regarding future modelling of Irish railways. While there seems to be something of a following for the  pre-grouping era in GB, there seems to be fewer who do and will remember or have any nostalgic association with early CIE, let alone the GSR, or GSWR ....

Not withstanding what IRM have achieved in 5 years which is a good business model and an innovative and quality series of products, there has really not been any readily available early period traction, track or stock that might revive interest in that era  

Many older more established modellers had similar concerns about the future of railway modelling when I first started modelling as a teenager about 50 years ago. The majority of the older generation modelled the "Big Four"/BR steam era, Irish railways were basically off the radar apart from a small group of scratchbuilders.

At the increasing popularity in modelling Irish railways was largely driven by a small group of modellers in Ireland and the UK who during the 1970s/80s built models of Irish locos and stock and a number layouts that appeared at exhibitions and in magazines. The greater interest in Irish modelling encouraged  people like Ian Mc Nally (MIR), Terry Mc Dermott (TMD & SSM Kits) and Mike Cole (Q Kits) to produce models of Irish locos and stock (some high quality, others less so).

While  RTR manufacturers and commissioners have a proven capability to produce high quality rtr models of  locos and stock, the availability of relatively low cost models from China is contributing to un-realistic expectations of what can be produced and more seriously a hollowing out of the hobby with the closure of several specialist UK suppliers and kit manufacturers with a potentially serious impact on people who intend to model Irish railways in the steam or transition era.

Its unlikely that it would be financially for IRM or MM to produce a representative selection of locos and stock required to operate a CIE 'transition from steam" era layout set during the 1950s while it may be viable to produce a C Class, AEC Railcar set with 1953 Buffet Car, Open Second, Side Corridor,  Brake Second, a Park Royal, Laminate coach (post 1956) (3 different types), its unlikely that it would be economic to produce vehicles ran singly (demand 1-2 per customer?) such as BR BSGVs, Bulleid 4w vans.

The Steam era opens up its own unique rabbit hole while wooden bodied GSWR/GSR side corridor coaches and Bredin stock were fairly widespread, ex-CBSCR, DSER and MGWR coaching stock were still in widespread use on their sections into the 1950s,  MGWR Post WW1 Corridor coaches (most comfortable 3rd/2nd Class coaches in Ireland) were also used on GSWR mail line and Midland 6w scattered far and wide, but seldom appearing in solid trains of 6w stock.

Locos open up a whole can of worms passenger trains were largely hauled by pre-amalgamation 4-4-0s until replaced by diesel railcars or locomotives from the mid to the late 50s. GSWR-5 Classes large 4-4-0, 3 Classes small 4-4-0, MGWR 3 Classes large 4-4-0, 1 Class small 4-4-0, 1 Class 2-4-0. The GSWR, MGWR and DSER each had their own "Standard" (J 15 size) and large Classes of Goods Locomotive. What about Tank locomotives, what about the Great Northern, the NCC, BCDR and dare we say it SLNCR with its unique sense of uniqueness.

 

[GSR 800]

48 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Many older more established modellers had similar concerns about the future of railway modelling when I first started modelling as a teenager about 50 years ago. The majority of the older generation modelled the "Big Four"/BR steam era, Irish railways were basically off the radar apart from a small group of scratchbuilders.

At the increasing popularity in modelling Irish railways was largely driven by a small group of modellers in Ireland and the UK who during the 1970s/80s built models of Irish locos and stock and a number layouts that appeared at exhibitions and in magazines. The greater interest in Irish modelling encouraged  people like Ian Mc Nally (MIR), Terry Mc Dermott (TMD & SSM Kits) and Mike Cole (Q Kits) to produce models of Irish locos and stock (some high quality, others less so).

While  RTR manufacturers and commissioners have a proven capability to produce high quality rtr models of  locos and stock, the availability of relatively low cost models from China is contributing to un-realistic expectations of what can be produced and more seriously a hollowing out of the hobby with the closure of several specialist UK suppliers and kit manufacturers with a potentially serious impact on people who intend to model Irish railways in the steam or transition era.

Its unlikely that it would be financially for IRM or MM to produce a representative selection of locos and stock required to operate a CIE 'transition from steam" era layout set during the 1950s while it may be viable to produce a C Class, AEC Railcar set with 1953 Buffet Car, Open Second, Side Corridor,  Brake Second, a Park Royal, Laminate coach (post 1956) (3 different types), its unlikely that it would be economic to produce vehicles ran singly (demand 1-2 per customer?) such as BR BSGVs, Bulleid 4w vans.

The Steam era opens up its own unique rabbit hole while wooden bodied GSWR/GSR side corridor coaches and Bredin stock were fairly widespread, ex-CBSCR, DSER and MGWR coaching stock were still in widespread use on their sections into the 1950s,  MGWR Post WW1 Corridor coaches (most comfortable 3rd/2nd Class coaches in Ireland) were also used on GSWR mail line and Midland 6w scattered far and wide, but seldom appearing in solid trains of 6w stock.

Locos open up a whole can of worms passenger trains were largely hauled by pre-amalgamation 4-4-0s until replaced by diesel railcars or locomotives from the mid to the late 50s. GSWR-5 Classes large 4-4-0, 3 Classes small 4-4-0, MGWR 3 Classes large 4-4-0, 1 Class small 4-4-0, 1 Class 2-4-0. The GSWR, MGWR and DSER each had their own "Standard" (J 15 size) and large Classes of Goods Locomotive. What about Tank locomotives, what about the Great Northern, the NCC, BCDR and dare we say it SLNCR with its unique sense of uniqueness.

 

I think Irish steam affords itself well to a continuation of kitbuilding and the likes. So many classes of locomotive and rolling stock that an RTR producer couldn't justify producing en masse. The loss of British suppliers is however a significant issue, and would be very difficult to justify replicating for the small Irish market.

Locos most likely to 'stick the landing' for RTR would be IMO (in no particular order)

J15s

800s

J26s

B4s

Q class

S class

V class

Vs class

T class 4-4-2 tank

Jeeps 

NCC Moguls

I'm sure I've overlooked a few.

400s could be thrown in there, the issue being of course the dozens upon dozens of variations through their career. May as well throw in the 500s in the same batch if the 400s get done.

Outside of possibly their 4-4-0s, I wouldn't be too certain about anything MGWR other than the cattle engines.

idk how well the BCDR would do, the Baltics are nice but its a bit niche?

SLNCR could see a few prototypes in a decade or so, they've got the charm anyway..

 

The GNR lends itself very well to RTR, as does the NCC. GSR is a lot more varied though the mainline (800s, 400s and Moguls) aren't too bad either. Main issues I'd see are the variations for the 400s (maybe limit it to CIE days where you've two 'main types' of 400) and the Moguls already having (albeit a severly dated by now) representation in RTR. 500s, idk.

In terms of tin vans, solution would probably be to include them in certain larger packs of coaches to ensure they get sold. I'd buy a few tin vans anyway, quite sorry I missed out on yours! They are great for making a short train seem longer, something the six wheelers will add to.

Looking to Britain, the famous prototypes get reruns again, and again, and again while locos such as the V4s have yet to have a single RTR model! Only now are many of the older types (pre grouping) being looked at, indicating an increasing interests in even earlier eras. (Though arguably in Britain the bell curve of interest has always begun earlier, with the grouping rather than in Ireland, where it seems firmly starting late 50s-early 60s and peaking 70s-90s)

[Galteemore]

Bottom line, I think, is that if you want to be an Irish modeller, some diy is almost always involved. And that’s no bad thing. For far too long I was put off doing old school modelling by fear of failure. Get yourself some plastic card and make a start. It’s fulfilling, rewarding, and incredible way to learn. 

[DJ Dangerous]

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Sher look at what use early 60s modellers we’re able to do up to now. 

(this is stuff from a collection in west cork territory…it ain’t mine unfortunately) I’m told then green on C212 is very accurate!

 

All about priorities...

So are the 27B and the Brian Collins PB Expressway for sale???

[jhb171achill]

43 minutes ago, GSR 800 said:

In terms of tin vans, solution would probably be to include them in certain larger packs of coaches to ensure they get sold. I'd buy a few tin vans anyway, quite sorry I missed out on yours! They are great for making a short train seem longer, something the six wheelers will add to.

 

Tin vans have a much greater and wider field of application than many realise. As well as being tagged onto ALL diesel hauled passenger trains in the 1960s, they also were to be seen (when new (and silver)) on the back of steam trains, both branch and main line. They made occasional appearances in goods trains carrying parcels and newspapers, especially on the Dublin - Dundalk - Portadown - Belfast goods. Until 1965 they were to be seen unhooked at Portadown awaiting hitching to either the Derry (Foyle Road) goods, or stuck on the back of an AEC set heading that way. On CIE main lines, they were often seen on the back of AEC sets too, carrying parcels.

As well as THAT, mail trains could often have up to half a dozen of them, right from the late 50s through to the mid 1970s. I saw a photo (might be one of Barry C's unpublished ones) of a Cork down mail some time early 70s, with the first four vehicles being tin vans, then a TPO and some other stuff, and another couple of tin vans at the end.

Note: if buying Silverfox ones, tell him to put a silver roof on it - he makes them BLACK, which is wrong for the silver livery - but correct for all other stock - which he puts light grey roofs on!

We BADLY need an IRM range of these things....

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

All about priorities...

So are the 27B and the Brian Collins PB Expressway for sale???

Afraid not, though even as someone who does not pay much attention to busses most of the time….this collection made me open my eyes (and that’s just one of 3 cabinets…) 

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, GSR 800 said:

Locos most likely to 'stick the landing' for RTR would be IMO (in no particular order)

J15s

800s

J26s

B4s

Q class

S class

V class

Vs class

T class 4-4-2 tank

Jeeps 

NCC Moguls

 

I’ll put them in order IMO in Likelyness to be made

1. V/ VS class (I believe if one is made there would be a long wait for the other)

2. 800 class 

3.S class/Q class (again if one is made it would be a long wait for another)

4. jeeps

5.J-15 (00 works have this covered for a while) 

6. Bandon tanks (my personal favourite)

7. MGWR J26 (my personal 2nd favourite) 

8.NCC mogul (unless it’s rebuilt faster then I suspect)

[DJ Dangerous]

11 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Afraid not, though even as someone who does not pay much attention to busses most of the time….this collection made me open my eyes (and that’s just one of 3 cabinets…) 

OK, I can read between the lines, I have to bribe you to be sticky-fingered, got it.

[Westcorkrailway]

11 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

OK, I can read between the lines, I have to bribe you to be sticky-fingered, got it.

The only green models you will be getting is fertiliser pallets!

[Colin R]

Two UK base companies which have called time are Eileen's Emporium the best supplier for all those small parts one needs and Coopercraft.

This second company has already been broken up with Cambrian Models taking over the Cooper Craft wagon Range.

What is going to happen to Eileen's Emporium stock no one know for sure, but if anyone know of a similar supplier please let us all know.   

I guess what is needed for the Scratch/Kit builder is an extension of the Terry Mc Dermott (TMD & SSM Kits) range. on the lines of something like Worsley Works.

I don't know for sure how many kits John has been able to sell from New Zealand, but ONe company from Aussie (Outback Models) have had to stop the production and selling of their 4mm scale Lynton and Barnstaple Railway Station kit range, due to the high cost of shipping.

As things stand right now I can't see myself or the Bank Account, accepting any more models for the next few months.

Colin Rainsbury       

[Colin R]

3 hours ago, Mayner said:

Many older more established modellers had similar concerns about the future of railway modelling when I first started modelling as a teenager about 50 years ago. The majority of the older generation modelled the "Big Four"/BR steam era, Irish railways were basically off the radar apart from a small group of scratchbuilders.

At the increasing popularity in modelling Irish railways was largely driven by a small group of modellers in Ireland and the UK who during the 1970s/80s built models of Irish locos and stock and a number layouts that appeared at exhibitions and in magazines. The greater interest in Irish modelling encouraged  people like Ian Mc Nally (MIR), Terry Mc Dermott (TMD & SSM Kits) and Mike Cole (Q Kits) to produce models of Irish locos and stock (some high quality, others less so).

While  RTR manufacturers and commissioners have a proven capability to produce high quality rtr models of  locos and stock, the availability of relatively low cost models from China is contributing to un-realistic expectations of what can be produced and more seriously a hollowing out of the hobby with the closure of several specialist UK suppliers and kit manufacturers with a potentially serious impact on people who intend to model Irish railways in the steam or transition era.

Its unlikely that it would be financially for IRM or MM to produce a representative selection of locos and stock required to operate a CIE 'transition from steam" era layout set during the 1950s while it may be viable to produce a C Class, AEC Railcar set with 1953 Buffet Car, Open Second, Side Corridor,  Brake Second, a Park Royal, Laminate coach (post 1956) (3 different types), its unlikely that it would be economic to produce vehicles ran singly (demand 1-2 per customer?) such as BR BSGVs, Bulleid 4w vans.

The Steam era opens up its own unique rabbit hole while wooden bodied GSWR/GSR side corridor coaches and Bredin stock were fairly widespread, ex-CBSCR, DSER and MGWR coaching stock were still in widespread use on their sections into the 1950s,  MGWR Post WW1 Corridor coaches (most comfortable 3rd/2nd Class coaches in Ireland) were also used on GSWR mail line and Midland 6w scattered far and wide, but seldom appearing in solid trains of 6w stock.

Locos open up a whole can of worms passenger trains were largely hauled by pre-amalgamation 4-4-0s until replaced by diesel railcars or locomotives from the mid to the late 50s. GSWR-5 Classes large 4-4-0, 3 Classes small 4-4-0, MGWR 3 Classes large 4-4-0, 1 Class small 4-4-0, 1 Class 2-4-0. The GSWR, MGWR and DSER each had their own "Standard" (J 15 size) and large Classes of Goods Locomotive. What about Tank locomotives, what about the Great Northern, the NCC, BCDR and dare we say it SLNCR with its unique sense of uniqueness.

 

Hi John 

Do you happen to have a list of the Irish locos Q Kits produced? I think they ended up in the MTK range, but they appear to be currently missing.

Regards

Colin Rainsbury 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Georgeconna]

35 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Two UK base companies which have called time are Eileen's Emporium the best supplier for all those small parts one needs and Coopercraft.

This second company has already been broken up with Cambrian Models taking over the Cooper Craft wagon Range.

What is going to happen to Eileen's Emporium stock no one know for sure, but if anyone know of a similar supplier please let us all know.   

I guess what is needed for the Scratch/Kit builder is an extension of the Terry Mc Dermott (TMD & SSM Kits) range. on the lines of something like Worsley Works.

I don't know for sure how many kits John has been able to sell from New Zealand, but ONe company from Aussie (Outback Models) have had to stop the production and selling of their 4mm scale Lynton and Barnstaple Railway Station kit range, due to the high cost of shipping.

As things stand right now I can't see myself or the Bank Account, accepting any more models for the next few months.

Colin Rainsbury       

 

Ah Eileens is gone....Bad news for sure. Only Shopped with them in Telford last month. Damn. Having said that I virtually spend zero on the UK models shops these days where before an order for a few bits and bobs here and there would not draw and extra 3.50 service fee from anpost.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Georgeconna

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, Colin R said:

Two UK base companies which have called time are Eileen's Emporium the best supplier for all those small parts one needs and Coopercraft.

This second company has already been broken up with Cambrian Models taking over the Cooper Craft wagon Range.

What is going to happen to Eileen's Emporium stock no one know for sure, but if anyone know of a similar supplier please let us all know.   

I guess what is needed for the Scratch/Kit builder is an extension of the Terry Mc Dermott (TMD & SSM Kits) range. on the lines of something like Worsley Works....

I can see Squires Tools possibly making a pitch for the remains of Eileen's - they seem to be on the lookout for ways to expand their empire. Just look at how well their takeover of South Eastern Finecast went.

Coopercraft wagons were probably the only usable part left. There has been some doubt expressed elsewhere about Slaters reclaiming the tooling for their coaching stock (GWR Toplights, basically). Last I heard was that some of the tools/moulds might be scrap because they hadn't been properly stored or otherwise looked after.

If you want SSM to expand, then you need to have a serious discussion with @Weshtyas to what is practical. He's not been on the Forum for a while, so I'm guessing he has other priorities which don't necessarily involve new kit design.

[leslie10646]

9 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Bottom line, I think, is that if you want to be an Irish modeller, some diy is almost always involved. And that’s no bad thing. For far too long I was put off doing old school modelling by fear of failure. Get yourself some plastic card and make a start. It’s fulfilling, rewarding, and incredible way to learn. 

As I observed before, this thread is better than TV.

David has hit the nail on the head. If you want things from the steam and/or the steam/diesel transition era, then you will have to do a lot yourself, so the sooner you start .....

I model GNR(I), so I wanted a Class VS (Colm Flanagan), a S Class (three built for me in Hong Kong by the esteemed Daniel Wu (an Interior designer!) but heavily modified by Alan Edgar), Class SG (also Hong Kong and one built in England) and of course Class T Glover Tanks (now three!).  All, except Colm's VS are SSM kits. The Classes AL and  PP (Northstar) were a bonus, gratefully received. That's 25 years of expensive collecting.

No manufacturer, even with Squillions of Euros to spend is going to equip my shed with the things I want RTR!

If I was into the GSR (and its predecessors) I would have had a much harder job. J15s, Yes - Thanks Terry McD; the little MGWR tank; GSR coaches (SSM) but none of the many 4-4-0s John M speaks of. The Woolwich Mogul was, of course, a gift thanks to its Irish designer. So thnaks, Bachmann.

Whatever IRM come up with, it'll do well because it will be unique and even if you're modelling a different railway, you should still buy one and find a reason for having it (like my J15s and MGWR 2-4-0 at Portadown Jct!).

And don't whinge about the price - compared with my list (£500 each, maybe) it'll be a bargain.

I have a load of IRM's stuff, which has NO place whatever on a 1950s GNR layout, but thinking back to the 1960s when I first attempted an Irish layout, I can only encourage those who may take my hobby on long after I am gone.

Edited December 14, 2022 by leslie10646

[Mayner]

Potential demand for 1 per-train items Brake, Luggage Vans, Buffet Cars.

IRMs, Accurascale and MM business model is largely based on producing coaches and wagons that customers will by in multiple to make up a complete train such as IRM & Accurascale's focus on 'Block Train Wagons, MM production of the Craven and Supertrain coaches.

I think its significant that MM did not produce model of the BR Van or Buffet Car (1953) that were used with Craven coaches. The BR Vans were used with the Cravens from the early 1970s to the mid 2000s, while the 1953 Buffet Car ran with the Cravens from the mid-1960s until replaced by "Craven Buffets" during the late 1980s.

While widely used I doubt that the Bulleid Vans even in a multi-pack would sell in sufficient quantities to justify producing a rtr model. The Vans were largely used singly and ran within a very restricted time period 1955-late 70s, the majority of 4w vans were withdrawn during the early 70s, a small number of 4w Heating Vans retained for Dublin Suburban and Branch Line trains. 

Ironically while CIE ran mail and parcel trains made up largely of 4w Luggage Vans, the Heating and Luggage sold better.

Sales wise my Bullied Van kits broke down     40% Heating and Luggage, 30% Luggage Van, 10% Post Office/PW Tool Van over two batches.

Kits/batch produced rtr Irish models.

With the exception of the Bandon Tank and B101 the majority of the SSM kits were developed during the 1980s and 90s before the business was sold to its current owner.

Worsley Works continues to produce scratchbuilder parts for Irish locos and rolling stock mainly GNR, NCC and UTA as Northern Modellers continue their great scratch and kitbashing tradition. Parts for BUT, MED, MPD and 70 Class railcars have been released during the past 10 years, apparently with little demand from "Southern Modellers" with no new GSWR/GS/CIE items released since the early 2000s.

I am unlikely to produce further JM Design kits unless I want to design and build a model for my own personal use, the business covers its production, but not its design and prototyping costs. Shipping costs from NZ do not appear to be a significant factor, the business has a small but loyal customer base, moving production to Ireland is unlikely to have a significant effect on the price point as I am working from a lower cost base due to the relatively low value of the NZ $ compared to the € or £, Vats not issue as our prices are 0 rated for vat/gst and claim back the vat/gst if any on my input costs.

The fundamental problem is there is in-sufficient demand for kits or batch built models in the current environment to make it worthwhile to produce new models.

Disappearing manufacturers.

Ian McNally's MIR was probably the first casualty of the introduction of the current generation of rtr models, despite re-tooling the majority of his locomotive and rolling stock kits from whitemetal to resin. Although some of the detail was heavy the kits were reasonably accurate models that captured the look of the prototype and easily convertible to 21mm gauge.

Model Irish Scale Rail a promising Edenderry based small batch build manufacturer of rtr CIE wagons faded out in the early 2010s after producing creditable models of the CIE H Van and Ballast/Gyspum wagon. MISR planned an extensive range of high quality highly wagons based on existing rtr chassis which may have been too much for a cottage industry operation.

The MISR H Van received a positive review in New Lines during the early 2010s.

IFM once produced a large range of Irish rtr coaches and wagons based on rtr chassis and running gear during the 2010s, but its currently unclear whether the business is currently in operation.

UK losses.

Apart from the loss of Eileen's, Photo Etch Consultants ceased trading in 2022.

Photo Etch control the tooling and carry out the etching for a number of UK kit manufacturers. Apart from the problem of retrieving the tooling, the closure of the business is likely to result in significant price increases for some brands of etched kits. Photo Etch prices were significantly lower than other photo engraving companies. The good news for customers is that I did not use Photo Etch.

Q Kits

Colin:

As far as I recall Q Kits produced resin models of CIE A Class, B201, B101, E401 and NIR Hunslet. While rough diamonds the Q kits tended to get the basic shape of the Metrovicks and Hunslet correct and the could be completed as a reasonable model.

I had a B101 & a E401, I struggled to complete the B101 mainly because I was unable to correct the serious shrinkage/distortion of the body and cut out the windows neatly, the E401 was a reasonable looking model but was unable to find a suitable donor chassis/motor bogie

The Metrovicks and Hunslet were marketed by MIR, though the A Class was later replaced by a whitemetal kit produced by MTK (poor quality body castings that did not fit and Class 47 bogie sideframes totally unsuitable for an A Class. Still it was fun to 'assemble" the A Class on a scratchbuilt chassis with Atheran SD9 trucks (bogies), with central flywheel motor driving both bogies extremely unusual for a model of an Irish or British Rail diesel during the early-mid 1990s.

[Mayner]

16 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

As I observed before, this thread is better than TV.

Whatever IRM come up with, it'll do well because it will be unique and even if you're modelling a different railway, you should still buy one and find a reason for having it (like my J15s and MGWR 2-4-0 at Portadown Jct!).

And don't whinge about the price - compared with my list (£500 each, maybe) it'll be a bargain.

 

As seen on TV!!!!!!!!!!!

I looked at the option of commissioning a rtr OO gauge Cattle Engine from China, I would have needed to sell 500 batch built Brass locos at £700 each or 3000 plastic injection locos at £180 each to cover my costs and make a small profit.

OO Works appears to have established that there is a market for 100 Irish steam outline locos at a £315 point which appears very low for a batch built model assembled in the UK (even at home!)

At the time I hadn't £300k lying around to see if I could sell 500 Brass or 3000 Plastic Cattle Engines so took a punt on investing a smaller amount in producing some 3D printed rtr wagons which did not exactly pay off either.

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

As seen on TV!!!!!!!!!!!

I looked at the option of commissioning a rtr OO gauge Cattle Engine from China, I would have needed to sell 500 batch built Brass locos at £700 each or 3000 plastic injection locos at £180 each to cover my costs and make a small profit.

OO Works appears to have established that there is a market for 100 Irish steam outline locos at a £315 point which appears very low for a batch built model assembled in the UK (even at home!)

At the time I hadn't £300k lying around to see if I could sell 500 Brass or 3000 Plastic Cattle Engines so took a punt on investing a smaller amount in producing some 3D printed rtr wagons which did not exactly pay off either.

Good to know the measuring stick on plastic injection...just have to find a 300 grand handy now. I would've thought a cattle engine brass kit could be a good way to go.

What I've noticed from my perusal in American O, HO and N scale is the rtr brass imports, mainly from south korea and japan are hot money. Modern American (injection moulded) rtr having all the bells and whistles, literally, with sound, steam etc...even in dc and n scale. Probably adding another 100 or so in the models price as a result.

The brass built locos nonetheless are those sought after, though I must wonder the uh...multiplier effect bachmann has had on that trend, so poor is their reputation in the US that it may have turned many modellers off injection moulded rtr.

I suppose RTR brass here seems a mainly foreign concept.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by GSR 800

[Mayner]

I probably would have gone for a GN V or Vs in sky blue livery with a matching rake of coaches, but I have been planning to build a Cattle Engine for the last 30 odd years.

American brass imports seem to have taken off after American servicemen discovered that Japanese and later Korean craftsmen could produce excellent hand crafted models companies such as Precision Scale and Overland Models , there is also a considerable market in European brass manufactured by companies like Fulgurex http://www.fulgurex.ch/en/.

American brass seems to be brought as much as an investment as to run on a layout. Athearn, Atlas and Walters were the main brands of plastic rtr models with Bachmann and Lifelike in the toy train category until they started lifting their game in the 1990s.

Apart from one or two 1960s GWR imports Japanese or Korean brass never took off in the UK with "Hornby" dominating the UK market until Bachmann Branchlines arrived during the 1990s. Otherwise excellent Airfix and Mainline locos in the 70s and 80s were let down by poorly manufactured mechanisms. Ironically Mainline's models were manufactured by Bachmann and Airfix (later Hornby) by Sanda Kan that was later gobbled up by Bachmann.

Iain Rice blamed the poor quality of British rtr models and kits on modellers expecting high quality models at bargain store prices

[Galteemore]

RTR brass remains a significant player in the UK 7mm market, especially for big express engines. Firms like LH Loveless, Finescale Brass, and Lee Marsh use Asian builders to produce absolute gems. Prices for an express loco c £3000, which is quite fair, considering how much a professional loco builder and painter would have to charge for similar work. The black J50 from Finescale is about £750 - given that the parts would cost me some £250, that’s a very respectable labour premium. Bachmann dipped a toe in the market, but left again. You can imagine what these guys could make of a GN S class….

Edited December 15, 2022 by Galteemore

[Horsetan]

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

....a whitemetal kit produced by MTK (poor quality body castings that did not fit .....

That was practically MTK's USP and applied to all of their kits, whether British or Irish. Legend has it that Colin Massingham never really consulted any engineering drawings, but merely guesstimated.