Class 121

[Geeb]

Hi Guys, this is my first post on here as i am new to the model train world, Ive started a 8*4 layout made primarily of peco 100 flexi track, ill get some pictures up soon, my question is im powering it with a std Hornby controller and the 2x coca cola trains i have back to back  i have works fine on it but the murphys model 121 will move for a few inches then stop. as im new im at a loss of what to do. i have searched the interweb and cant find anything about it so i thought it best to ask the professionals. do i need a more powerful controller to operate the better locos. And if so could you recommend one to me. Thanks again and if this is in the wrong spot sorry in advance. 

 

[BosKonay]

Is there any noise from the 121 when it stops? If you put another loco on the track at the same Time see if it still runs when the 121 stops? That will rule out a controlle short or overload. 

[Geeb]

Hey BosKonay thanks for the speedy reply, yes the hornby christmas coca cola loco works but the murphy 121 will move a few inches and cut out, it will try move again when you touch the back to push it forward a tad and the lights flicker but then just dies

[enniscorthyman]

If you have the standard Hornby DC controller,that could be the problem as they are notorious for cutting out.I have one for a Thomas set and it's useless.

[Joe Keegan]

Can you post a picture of the Hornby controller that you are using as this will paint a thousand words

 

Enniscorthyman is correct too

 

Cheers

[Georgeconna]

If they still do them get  onto Marks and get a Bachmann controller and Transformer, Loads more amps.

The Amount of Hornby sets that came back was unreal as the power was really poor.

[DiveController]

I was also going to suggest the controller but Georgeconna was associated with Marks Models so he would have a lot of perspective on that.

what about the Coca Cola 0-4-0s Will a single controller  power one of them? Both of them?

Edited December 4, 2021 by DiveController

[Broithe]

If the Hornby controller is one of these - 

- then they are a fairly poor device.

The output, particularly at the lower settings, is very 'choppy', electrically, and it may upset the more modern motor systems - possibly.

Also, they have a thermal cut-out in them, for safety reasons, but the component used for this can have very variable responses, sometimes they are OK, but I had one that could only be used in the garage, in the winter - in the house, or if the Sun came out, it would quickly 'think it was over-heated' and turn itself off.

 

I'm a fan of the Gaugemaster devices - fine, if you're going to stay DC - and they can sometimes be picked up second-hand, as people go DCC.

Edit - Ah, I see that the controller is one of these -

- I've never used one of those, but I wonder if it is just a 'repackaged' casing, with the original components within?

Edited December 4, 2021 by Broithe

[Galteemore]

Yes I’ve had problems with a Hornby one like that. I don’t think they are designed for a long life or serious modelling use. Gaugemaster are great - with a lifetime guarantee. This is a great starter one. https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/gaugemaster-gmc-combi.html

Edited December 4, 2021 by Galteemore

[Broithe]

53 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes I’ve had problems with a Hornby one like that. I don’t think they are designed for a long life or serious modelling use. Gaugemaster are great - with a lifetime guarantee. This is a great starter one. https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/gaugemaster-gmc-combi.html

Last time I looked at the conditions of the Gaugemaster guarantee, it boiled down to "If you have one that doesn't work, we'll fix it or replace it" - no 'proof of purchase', timescale, or any other issue - if it breaks, they'll fix it - (but, it won't break, of course, so they can say that fairly safely).

[connollystn]

I had a Jouef transformer for years (from the 70s), I felt it perfomed better than the Lima, Hornby and, Fleischmann ones I had. The Hornby and Lima transformers were quite flimsy. It's always worth investing in a good transformer and track from the start as they never get dated. No point in having the best locomotives if the transformer and track aren't up to scratch.

Have to say; that Hornby 'Coca Cola' train set is nice. It's the sort of set that would get people into the hobby.

[Geeb]

Thanks guys for the replies, the controller is just the simple controller that comes in the coca cola christmas box set (x2) and a smaller one that came with the santa express box set. i started with the santa express with the intention to put in around the tree but i lost the run of myself in the shop and have the makings of a good start.

Im intending on making it a Christmas scene but it will stay as the winter section of the overall layout with a Christmas market and as i am a massive fan of coca cola , it needed a special place in the layout as you will see below in the photos. i also have street lighting and cars with lights from layouts for you and a light up coke vending machine and some flashing cones to make a scene of a car crash with the gards at the scene.and the catering vans will be part of the Christmas market scene along with Santa's cottage. there will be a floating circle track on a piece of 22mm white acrylic i got a mate to cut out for me to go above the layout with the santa express running on it with the big cheese himself keeping an eye on the kids below lol.

Unfortunately i made a newbie mistake and  i ordered code 75 flex track (10 bloody pieces) by mistake i needed code 100 to match all my points and crossing so it has out me back a few days but thankfully i have 20 lengths of code 100 on route and should have it tue or wed, its a pretty large loop 8*4 and i will be adding in points to allow to connect to other boards in the room eventually so maybe the controller isnt strong enough, i was thinking this but wasnt sure. here are some of the pictures of what i have an a basic layout idea. any tips and advice is greatly appreciated guys thanks again.

[Geeb]

6 hours ago, connollystn said:

I had a Jouef transformer for years (from the 70s), I felt it perfomed better than the Lima, Hornby and, Fleischmann ones I had. The Hornby and Lima transformers were quite flimsy. It's always worth investing in a good transformer and track from the start as they never get dated. No point in having the best locomotives if the transformer and track aren't up to scratch.

Have to say; that Hornby 'Coca Cola' train set is nice. It's the sort of set that would get people into the hobby.

to be completely honest conollystn you hit the nail on the head lol. i bought the santa one for the husband and the coke one for myself and had so much fun making go back and forth i wanted to make it bigger and better and off the kitchen table lol

[Georgeconna]

Bit late but you could of got 100 to 75 convertors.

Transition Tracks – PECO (peco-uk.com)

www.hattons.co.uk - Peco Products SL-112 Converter rail joiners/fishplates code 75 to 100 for OO & HO gauge - Pack of 12

[Georgeconna]

This one is the worst out of the lot, Look at the rate on the Transformer!!! How they get awa sticking this crap into a set is beyond me
 

This is a they Baccy one, Flipping heck the price used to be round €20 quid 7 years ago. Nuts.

 

[murphaph]

Welcome Geeb. Great to see more people getting into the hobby! If you say where you are I'm sure someone could loan you a trafo to test.

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Georgeconna said:

This one is the worst out of the lot, Look at the rate on the Transformer!!! How they get awa sticking this crap into a set is beyond me
 

This is a they Baccy one, Flipping heck the price used to be round €20 quid 7 years ago. Nuts.

 

At least the Bachman one don’t make the locomotive sound horrendous like that Hornby one 

[Geeb]

6 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Bit late but you could of got 100 to 75 convertors.

Transition Tracks – PECO (peco-uk.com)

www.hattons.co.uk - Peco Products SL-112 Converter rail joiners/fishplates code 75 to 100 for OO & HO gauge - Pack of 12

Thanks George, i never even realized there was converter joiner and sure its never to late lol i have some in my basket for the next order. ill hold onto the track i bought by mistake and use it in a hidden part of the layout eventually. Thanks for the tip.

[Geeb]

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

Welcome Geeb. Great to see more people getting into the hobby! If you say where you are I'm sure someone could loan you a trafo to test.

Thank you for the warm welcome Phil. i dont mind buying a new controller tbh if i need to, this was just a temporary Christmas display which after Christmas will be broken down and incorporated into a 100% fictional large layout i have planned broken down in a spring agri/industrial section, a summer cityfun and beach section and close it off with a winter wonderland , so technically for the temporary display for Christmas  i could just leave the murphy 121 and the 3 coaches i have for it parked up at the platform and worry about getting them working on the proper layout in the new year as my coca-cola back to back set works fine on the same track and the santas express set will be run separate to the main lines, but hopefully when the new code 100 track arrives this week the model might work fine with less connections. it was basically an 8x4 loop layout made up of many many short and long sections. my ignorance to the hobby has been and still is quite astonishing tbh but i am learning more everyday.  

I'm torn on weather to run it as dc or as a dcc from the get go. What would the professionals advise is best to start with if i mean to do this right from the get go

[murphaph]

I'm definitely not a professional but I would go straight to DCC but a half decent DC controller should still be in your arsenal to test locos and perhaps run them in.

[Geeb]

thanks for the info Phil, would you have any recommendations on a good dcc controller, I'm learning a lot from watching Charlie on Chadwick model railway but sometimes Charlie can go on a bit and i skip lol  but i find he explains things less complicated as some others.

ill pick up a good dc controller while im up  in the city center tomorrow, i normally just get everything in marks models or would have any other recommendations i don't really know any other shops in the city

[Colin R]

Hi Geeb check this link out I do have one so I find it works for me

https://modelrailwayengineer.com/best-model-railway-controller/

one thing to remember about model railways is that over time there have been a number of different types of motors fitted to model railway locomotives some coreless and others those much older will have had an iron core motor, please be aware that this can make all the difference to the proformance of your model railway.

On another group we are at the moment discussing the merits of a DIY controller from New Zealand, the only problem is that you need to be able to solder to make the kit up. more details a bit later about them.

Have a look at the following link as well

 https://www.railwaymodellers.com/morley-and-gaugemaster-model-railway-controllers-compared-how-a-controller-works/

It should be noted that you get what you pay for when it comes to model railway controllers, as others have said look around on the internet and have a look.

Modern locos like the class121 should have a coreless motor so a gaugemaster should be suitable for your needs.

Finally for now and I don't know if you can get it where you live, but try buying a copy of model rail magazine, it is a good magazine for all sort of ideas.

Oh by the way welcome to the group and enjoy you new hobby many people do.

Colin      

[DiveController]

7 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

This one is the worst out of the lot, Look at the rate on the Transformer!!! How they get awa sticking this crap into a set is beyond me
 

 

THe transformer on that put out half an amp. Most DCC chips will handle put to 1A at least and that's because the loco may pull that much amperage under certain conditions. 

57 minutes ago, Geeb said:

Thank you for the warm welcome Phil. i dont mind buying a new controller tbh if i need to, this was just a temporary Christmas display which after Christmas will be broken down and incorporated into a 100% fictional large layout i have planned broken down in a spring agri/industrial section, a summer cityfun and beach section and close it off with a winter wonderland , so technically for the temporary display for Christmas  i could just leave the murphy 121 and the 3 coaches i have for it parked up at the platform and worry about getting them working on the proper layout in the new year as my coca-cola back to back set works fine on the same track and the santas express set will be run separate to the main lines, but hopefully when the new code 100 track arrives this week the model might work fine with less connections. it was basically an 8x4 loop layout made up of many many short and long sections. my ignorance to the hobby has been and still is quite astonishing tbh but i am learning more everyday.  

I'm torn on weather to run it as dc or as a dcc from the get go. What would the professionals advise is best to start with if i mean to do this right from the get go

I'm completely with Phil, go DCC from the start. Many more options on anything you'll buy, smoother running as the loco is on full current all the time (the pulse frequency is adjusted to determine how fast he loco runs), loco lighting options, sound when you can afford to buy those. You don't need to get too fancy for DCC. I have a quick Bachmann EZ track just for testing locos and new sound chips, running in new locos and the like and even that will run fine with a DCC controller. You can start adding droppers and all that business later

[Geeb]

thanks for the advice lads, ill pick up a dcc controller tomorrow, all my soldering equipment is arriving tomorrow so i can get the lighting sorted in advance  and i picked up a dremel 8220 today so i can cut my track down to size when it gets here,  hopefully i will have some trains moving by this day week.

[irishthump]

35 minutes ago, Colin R said:

 

Modern locos like the class121 should have a coreless motor so a gaugemaster should be suitable for your needs.

 

I was'nt aware the 121 had a coreless motor. Are you sure that's the case?

[Geeb]

38 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Hi Geeb check this link out I do have one so I find it works for me

https://modelrailwayengineer.com/best-model-railway-controller/

one thing to remember about model railways is that over time there have been a number of different types of motors fitted to model railway locomotives some coreless and others those much older will have had an iron core motor, please be aware that this can make all the difference to the proformance of your model railway.

On another group we are at the moment discussing the merits of a DIY controller from New Zealand, the only problem is that you need to be able to solder to make the kit up. more details a bit later about them.

Have a look at the following link as well

 https://www.railwaymodellers.com/morley-and-gaugemaster-model-railway-controllers-compared-how-a-controller-works/

It should be noted that you get what you pay for when it comes to model railway controllers, as others have said look around on the internet and have a look.

Modern locos like the class121 should have a coreless motor so a gaugemaster should be suitable for your needs.

Finally for now and I don't know if you can get it where you live, but try buying a copy of model rail magazine, it is a good magazine for all sort of ideas.

Oh by the way welcome to the group and enjoy you new hobby many people do.

Colin      

Thank you for the warm welcome colin, and the helpful links ill have a good read over them. im the Galway side of Athlone so i should be able to find a shop in the town that carries the magazine. thanks again,

[Colin R]

1 hour ago, irishthump said:

I was'nt aware the 121 had a coreless motor. Are you sure that's the case?

To be honest I don't know as I don't have one to take apart to look at, but the locos I have recently obtained do have a far better motor in them than the good old Triang XO5 3 pole motor. Motor technology has come on leaps and bounds since I first started modelling railways.

Todays modelling is going down the DCC chip route and yet what I think puts a lot of older modeller offs from going to DCC is in fact the issue of having to change in some cases the old motor so it can work with the new DCC controllers.

I did have one loco which was converted to DCC but the motor kept running warm, it gave up in the end because it was not designed to accept a high current.   

The other issue for some is that since DCC is here to stay, there has been no development with the older DC controllers, which to my way of thinking is wrong, I am sure I read somewhere that there is a cut off point which is possible to back date older locos to DCC.

From my experiance with 009 modelling, the older Eggarbahn stuff, does not like the 1980's feedback controllers where as the newer models coming out don't like using the older style controllers.

If I was starting out again then yes I would go DCC, but since I have more than enough 00n3 locos which will run on DC I am not about to start converting them over at my age, unless I win the euro lottery of course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

[irishthump]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

To be honest I don't know as I don't have one to take apart to look at, but the locos I have recently obtained do have a far better motor in them than the good old Triang XO5 3 pole motor. Motor technology has come on leaps and bounds since I first started modelling railways.

Todays modelling is going down the DCC chip route and yet what I think puts a lot of older modeller offs from going to DCC is in fact the issue of having to change in some cases the old motor so it can work with the new DCC controllers.

I did have one loco which was converted to DCC but the motor kept running warm, it gave up in the end because it was not designed to accept a high current.   

The other issue for some is that since DCC is here to stay, there has been no development with the older DC controllers, which to my way of thinking is wrong, I am sure I read somewhere that there is a cut off point which is possible to back date older locos to DCC.

From my experiance with 009 modelling, the older Eggarbahn stuff, does not like the 1980's feedback controllers where as the newer models coming out don't like using the older style controllers.

If I was starting out again then yes I would go DCC, but since I have more than enough 00n3 locos which will run on DC I am not about to start converting them over at my age, unless I win the euro lottery of course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the 121 has a 5 pole motor. It's getting to be standard on the new, high end RTR locos.

Good points about converting to DCC, it pretty much precludes locos of a certain vintage. But I've had success converting the old Lima pancakes and Hornby Ringfield motors to run on DCC.

 

[Geeb]

thanks again guys for the advice ill go down the dcc route as the 121 i have is the only proper train i have, the others are only novelty ones in fairness , but can you convert the small coca cola 0-4-0 over to dcc or is would it be cheaper to buy a dcc 0-4-0 and swap the body shells

[mmie353]

If you do a quick google search many people have done videos on installing a DCC decoder to a 0-4-0. It maybe best to look at them and then decide if you are comfortable with trying to upgrade the loco yourself. It maybe possible to find someone close to where you are based that they maybe able to upgrade it for you, that is if you are not comfortable doing it yourself. I do not own this model but I assume you will need to hardwire it. 

Hornby have guides on their website that also can guide you, this maybe a help to you:

https://support.hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360016347640-R782-0-4-0-Smokey-Joe

Edited December 6, 2021 by mmie353

[Adrian]

Hey Geeb,

Welcome to the forum Sounds like you got to the root of the problem above (the Hornby controller). I got back into models last year and to test out DCC I got a combined freight Hornby train set to play with, it worked for that but anything serious needs a better controller (if you want to be able to change CV settings on the locos chip, you will also need something better as the standard horby controllers don't enable that). I would also advise going down the DCC route, it will save you a lot of hassle in the long run. If you are looking for recommendations: 

1. I went with a Lenz Set 100 system with an LH100 handset - cost about £200 on ebay almost new - things to remember, usually you need a handset for control, a control unit which does all the computing and a transformer to provide power to the track

2. I initially bought some standard Hornby DCC chips for €20 to start off, but they're totally useless, especially if you have any older locos. My favourite non-sound chip is Zimo MX600R which is about €30 and works really well with older locos if you have them, after Zimo, Bachman and Lenz chips are solid (IMO) unless locos have specific chips / sound chips made for them, as most Murphy Models and IRM models do, in which case snap them up!

3. Lastly, if you (or others reading this) do have older locos with ringfield motors that you are attached to and want to run, I have found that with a bit of research, trial and error and practice, you should be able to completely convert them to a perfectly running DCC model for under €50. I usually replace the motor with a Strathpfeffer Junction CD motor conversion kit, (approx £10) add a Zimo MX600R DCC chip (€20) and a Lais Stay Alive chip (£10) - it's perfect for older Hornby and Lima locos, apart from the Hornby class 58 as it has a worm gear motor - but the chip and stay alive helps - if anyone wants more details on how I do this, just reply below and I'll do up a quick vid

Welcome again!

[Geeb]

19 hours ago, mmie353 said:

If you do a quick google search many people have done videos on installing a DCC decoder to a 0-4-0. It maybe best to look at them and then decide if you are comfortable with trying to upgrade the loco yourself. It maybe possible to find someone close to where you are based that they maybe able to upgrade it for you, that is if you are not comfortable doing it yourself. I do not own this model but I assume you will need to hardwire it. 

Hornby have guides on their website that also can guide you, this maybe a help to you:

https://support.hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360016347640-R782-0-4-0-Smokey-Joe

thanks mmie ill have a look and see if i would feel confident enough to do it myself

[Geeb]

17 hours ago, Adrian said:

Hey Geeb,

Welcome to the forum Sounds like you got to the root of the problem above (the Hornby controller). I got back into models last year and to test out DCC I got a combined freight Hornby train set to play with, it worked for that but anything serious needs a better controller (if you want to be able to change CV settings on the locos chip, you will also need something better as the standard horby controllers don't enable that). I would also advise going down the DCC route, it will save you a lot of hassle in the long run. If you are looking for recommendations: 

1. I went with a Lenz Set 100 system with an LH100 handset - cost about £200 on ebay almost new - things to remember, usually you need a handset for control, a control unit which does all the computing and a transformer to provide power to the track

2. I initially bought some standard Hornby DCC chips for €20 to start off, but they're totally useless, especially if you have any older locos. My favourite non-sound chip is Zimo MX600R which is about €30 and works really well with older locos if you have them, after Zimo, Bachman and Lenz chips are solid (IMO) unless locos have specific chips / sound chips made for them, as most Murphy Models and IRM models do, in which case snap them up!

3. Lastly, if you (or others reading this) do have older locos with ringfield motors that you are attached to and want to run, I have found that with a bit of research, trial and error and practice, you should be able to completely convert them to a perfectly running DCC model for under €50. I usually replace the motor with a Strathpfeffer Junction CD motor conversion kit, (approx £10) add a Zimo MX600R DCC chip (€20) and a Lais Stay Alive chip (£10) - it's perfect for older Hornby and Lima locos, apart from the Hornby class 58 as it has a worm gear motor - but the chip and stay alive helps - if anyone wants more details on how I do this, just reply below and I'll do up a quick vid

Welcome again!

Thanks for all the great info Adrian,

i was looking up some dcc gear today and i was thinking this ( https://www.digitrax.com/products/command-stations-boosters/dcs52/) could be a good starter as i can add in extra controllers and can control both dcc and dc at the same time on the same track. it says it works for o\g\ho\n gauges so i presume it would work on 00 has anyone used these for 00 or have any input on it. from what i can gather it is a complete plug and play kit.

i have €2-300 and could prob stretch to €400 but it would have to be very good and last me years without needing to update it for that price. i only plan to only run 10-15 locos total and would like to incorporate block detection eventually.

i like the idea of controlling the majority of the point work myself manually with toggle switches on a layout map but it would be nice to have some on the controller also.

do you think this is a good controller folks or can i do better for what i have to spend, i like the look of the digitrax command stations and throttles and they are the easiest i think to use for a newbie like myself.

i also had a look at this bad boy but i think it needs more then just the throttle to work  (https://www.digitrax.com/products/throttles/dt602/ ) i think i need extra control module to make the magic happen and bring her to life.

 

Geeb

[Mayner]

22 minutes ago, Geeb said:

Thanks for all the great info Adrian,

i was looking up some dcc gear today and i was thinking this ( https://www.digitrax.com/products/command-stations-boosters/dcs52/) could be a good starter as i can add in extra controllers and can control both dcc and dc at the same time on the same track. it says it works for o\g\ho\n gauges so i presume it would work on 00 has anyone used these for 00 or have any input on it. from what i can gather it is a complete plug and play kit.

i have €2-300 and could prob stretch to €400 but it would have to be very good and last me years without needing to update it for that price. i only plan to only run 10-15 locos total and would like to incorporate block detection eventually.

i like the idea of controlling the majority of the point work myself manually with toggle switches on a layout map but it would be nice to have some on the controller also.

do you think this is a good controller folks or can i do better for what i have to spend, i like the look of the digitrax command stations and throttles and they are the easiest i think to use for a newbie like myself.

i also had a look at this bad boy but i think it needs more then just the throttle to work  (https://www.digitrax.com/products/throttles/dt602/ ) i think i need extra control module to make the magic happen and bring her to life.

 

Geeb

I have been using Digitrax DCC for over 20 years, still using the original Empire Builder II  Command Station from 1998-2000 https://www.digitrax.com/products/retired/starter-sets/eb/.

The DCS52 looks like a good starter set, the main advantage is that its expandable you can add additional throttles and compatible with other Digitrax and 3rd party products that use Digitrax. Loconet system.

I have successfully used Digitrax in N, OO, HO and G Scale and I am currently playing around with a sound equipped Murphy Models 121.

Getting started in DCC can be pricey compared with staying with DC particularly adding sound decoders to locos, Gaugemaster produce some excellent DC controllers including an inexpensive hand held controller with plug in transformer for starter layouts https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/gaugemaster-controls-brand5/gaugemaster-gmc-combi.html. 

[Geeb]

42 minutes ago, Mayner said:

playing around with a sound equipped Murphy Models 121

savage Mayner thanks man this confirms what i has thought myself about the Zephyr Express, and i as i said the only proper loco i have is a Murphy 121 for the min so, so far this is selling me on the Zephyr Express  lol. thanks again for the info