ICRs

[Noel]

Saw models of ICRs on sale last year at one of the toy fares in Stillorgan. The box looked impressive but inside was a Bachmann class 170 commuter DMU resprayed into IR Silver/Green livery. Wasn't impressed despite the excellent respray job. They just didn't look like Irish Rail's Rotem ICRs, doors totally wrong making them look odd, front not quite right either. ICRs are not my personal cup of tea anyway as they are operationally very boring for a model layout, just back'n'forth, no loco, no soul, you wouldn't want DCC sound because outside they sound so lame. Inside the prototype you end up with a headache after the first two hours Killarney-Dublin such is the engine noise under the floor, vibration and firm seats. No proper catering either. In recent years on some routes they have become like sardin cans due to overcrowding.

 

As a regular intercity rail traveller my heart will drop if the loco hauled mk4 CAF sets are ever replaced with these hideous boring yo-yos. If I got a model of an ICR as a present I'd give it away to a child who'd appreciate it better and enjoy watching it race around the top of a kitchen table in frantic circles.

 

[WRENNEIRE]

Ah Jasus, hear we go again 

[enniscorthyman]

Yer dead right ,plastic railcars

Sure one derailed at Portlaoise depot and had to be sent to Scotland for repairs.Its no wonder they did not all blow away in the recent storms.

[Edo]

Ah Cheer up Noel!!.......the railcars do what the modern passenger wants them to do and allows the rail company to keep the rails open and down for auld steam engine to pass along every so often......it was ever thus....

Could be worse - i've a 3 and 4 year old on my hands this weekend and they're asking where the dinosaur wagons are on my old GWR goods set........

 

 

[DERAILED]

They are horrible things, only a slight step-up from the 29000s. Noisy, overlit, overcrowded and grubby. Useless catering trolley which also blocks the aisles for passengers and staff. The toilets are tiny except for the one for wheelchairs. Now that IE have extra staff (the train host) will they reintroduce Fastrack? I mean the train host has little enough to do.

[Wexford70]

What does the train host do except hide in the guard's compartment when the train gets full? 

No disrespect to the staff but how does their presence compensate for over crowding, no seat booking information and an announcement speaker that sounds like a gramaphone from the 1930s.

I see the same gentleman on the Wexford route regularly and even asked the ticket checker what their role was. He had no idea. 

By the way anyone ever see the selll by date on the Danish pastries sold.from the catering trollies? In a nuclear war only those Danish pastries and cockroaches will remain!!!

[jhb171achill]

Ach now....

My own distaste for all things "modduren" begins with 071s and Hunslet Enterprises. But each to their own; jhb171Senior would have looked blankly at a B101, B113, D class or Donegal Railcar and walked away..................they didn't breathe shteam!

There will come a day, I do tell ye, when the baby gricelings of the day, once they pass pension age (101, as it will then be, under FFG) look back in nostalgia, and pore over old pictures of the ICRs and CAFs and 201s that they remembered their dads taking them on the last run of, before the global warming an'all that stuff. 

Senior also used to recall his time in Blackburn, Lancashire, as the Blackburn District PW Engineer, where he worked about 1939-44. The LMS men around him referred to the "Black 5's" as the "new engines", thus Senior saw them as such too....

It's all relative.

Having said all that, no, I've no interest in ICRs either, but they're better than a greenway......

[RedRich]

Its all down to taste. The most important thing is getting to your destination safe. Best leave the ranting to those with too much time on their hands.

Rich,

[DERAILED]

9 hours ago, RedRich said:

Its all down to taste. The most important thing is getting to your destination safe. Best leave the ranting to those with too much time on their hands.

Rich,

Thanks for the condescension but at 60 I don't have too much time on my hands just a zero tolerance for things that annoy me. Shure it's okay though as long as the IRRS can run a farewell ICR  special for the gricer brigade. 

[RedRich]

Don't get annoyed then. You mention your age my wife's grandmother died just before her 101 birthday the woman was always in great form never complained loved life. In all fairness this thread was an effort to start a rant fest. 

There are way to many people dying on our roads. It's touched my family and I often wonder if they had taken an ICR that day instead of driving they would still be here. People start these kind of threads for one thing only and that is controversy, they never see the bigger picture.

I still stand by what I said.

Rich,

 

[Noel]

Dear RQ I started this thread to express a) my observations about the bachmann class 170 commuter DMUs which were supposed to be IE ICRs not commuter DMUs, b) express my dislike of prototypical ICRs based on experience travelling on them in Ireland, and c) My dislike generally of DMUs from a modelling perspective because they offer are operationally extremely boring (ie no shunting, no runarounds) just shorties running back'n'forth or round'n'round. I did not intend to start a rant fest, you are the only person who has responded such. I apologise if it sounded like a rant, I just dislike the dam things and very glad not to have any DMU models, they are also too modern for my personal liking as you well know my favourite era is late 1950s to mid 1970s before the modern era rolling stock came in from 1972 onwards and especially after 1974  (ie fitted brake and bogie goods stock). The railways seemed to become operationally boring after 1974 with uniform rakes of fitted stock, and uniform rakes of coaches, which from a modelling perspective for me anyway offers little operating interest on a layout (ie compared to shunting 2 axle wagon formations and marshalling variable coach formations at terminus stations. As a traveller I used to very much enjoy travelling on mk3 services, DD to Belfast and now the mk4 CAFs to Cork, but as already explained not a fan of the ICRs either as a traveller or rail enthusiast. I remember fondly travelling on rickety but exciting and interesting Craven, Park Royal, Laminate and Bredin variable formations in the 60s and 70s. Passenger trains splitting in two at midland stations to head to different towns. But I do understand from an economics point of view why ICRs exist and what cost savings they offered (ie no loco marshalling needed, ability to ditch the ageing 141/181 fleet, no runaround track formations needed at stations and associated maintenance, less IR employees needed, faster turnarounds, etc). There was a time you could eat a fry or a stake on an Irish intercity train, now its a kit-kat or just a processed sandwich. Travel by rail is not what it used to be, and rightly or wrongly I associate same with cost cutting and the widespread adoption of ICRs. I cannot imagine I would ever want to watch boring prototypes in operation, unlike loco hauled trains which have appeal. It appears I am not alone in that view. Good evening.

[Rob]

22 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Ach now....

My own distaste for all things "modduren" begins with 071s and Hunslet Enterprises. But each to their own; jhb171Senior would have looked blankly at a B101, B113, D class or Donegal Railcar and walked away..................they didn't breathe shteam!

There will come a day, I do tell ye, when the baby gricelings of the day, once they pass pension age (101, as it will then be, under FFG) look back in nostalgia, and pore over old pictures of the ICRs and CAFs and 201s that they remembered their dads taking them on the last run of, before the global warming an'all that stuff. 

Senior also used to recall his time in Blackburn, Lancashire, as the Blackburn District PW Engineer, where he worked about 1939-44. The LMS men around him referred to the "Black 5's" as the "new engines", thus Senior saw them as such too....

It's all relative.

Having said all that, no, I've no interest in ICRs either, but they're better than a greenway......

Maybe l'm ahead of my time-   l already love stuff like the 201's & the Mark III's 

[jhb171achill]

In reality, as my above post tries to illustrate, we will all have our favourites over time.....

When the NIR 80 class came out and were in full service, many enthusiasts and modellers ignored them, yet historically as we now know they played a vitally important role in the revival of railways in the north and were the staple for over thirty years of almost all services.

Thus, quite rightly, the preserved set at Downpatrick is a very valuable piece of our railway heritage indeed. I often say here that post-1970, I am personally out of my own interest zone, but that's nothing but my own personal opinion.

ICRs have played a part in keeping rural lines going, not unlike the role played by AEC cars in the 1950-70 period, all over Ireland. Indeed, had the funds been forthcoming for more, it's likely that much of the GNR would have lasted at least a little longer. The ICRs will eventually have their own place in history.

Personally, I'll bash them from Broadstone the whole way to Killala, but there's no denying they do what they were bought to do. And in the overall story of iris railways, that's all good.

Tomorrow, I will travel from Cork to Dublin in one.....

Within our world of models, I do actually believe that an IRM / Murphy standard RTR ICR set would be a winner. If made by either of those, it would actually be a thing of beauty!

Edited February 23, 2020 by jhb171achill

[hexagon789]

It's interesting to note that one if the latest of the IRRS journals I have, with a mention of the beginning of the procurement process for the Mk IVs, had said they would run to Limerick and Galway, not just Cork.

As well as pondering on that, ever since the dying days of the Irish Mk IIIs, I've wondered if they would have lasted longer if they had been push-pull?

Our Mk IIIs over here are still in service (though numbers are now declining steadily), after as many as 45 years in traffic for some vehicles (some prototype vehicles are even older though other than the Royal Train, I don't think any remain in service now.)

I will say, I would happily take one of IÉs ICRs over what was the staple of ScotRail's InterCity fleet since they were introduced from 1999, the Class 170 Turbostars, but with ScotRail having replaced those on InterCity runs with cascaded HSTs, I have to say there's nothing like Mk3 comfort, certainly the blissful peace of not having a 422hp MTU engine vibrating away under the floor is a godsend for a start, let alone the improved performance.

 

I do hope IÉ keeps the Mk IVs going for some time yet, but I echo what others are saying about how the ICRs have played a vital role - they are what passengers want really, something modern which gets them from A-B without issue and that's applies to railways the world over.

1 hour ago, Rob said:

Maybe l'm ahead of my time-   l already love stuff like the 201's & the Mark III's 

Definitely agree on the Mk IIIs but I think I prefer 071s over 201s, they just sound so damn good!

 

20 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

In reality, as my above post tries to illustrate, we will all have our favourites over time.....

Exactly, it would be a boring old world if we all liked the same thing and saw eye-to-eye on everything, it's far more interesting to debate and argue why we prefer certain things ourselves against that which others will swear blind are the bee's knees in the railway world.

[hexagon789]

On 2/22/2020 at 10:38 AM, Noel said:

Saw models of ICRs on sale last year at one of the toy fares in Stillorgan. The box looked impressive but inside was a Bachmann class 170 commuter DMU resprayed into IR Silver/Green livery. Wasn't impressed despite the excellent respray job. They just didn't look like Irish Rail's Rotem ICRs, doors totally wrong making them look odd, front not quite right either. ICRs are not my personal cup of tea anyway as they are operationally very boring for a model layout, just back'n'forth, no loco, no soul, you wouldn't want DCC sound because outside they sound so lame. Inside the prototype you end up with a headache after the first two hours Killarney-Dublin such is the engine noise under the floor, vibration and firm seats. No proper catering either. In recent years on some routes they have become like sardin cans due to overcrowding.

 

As a regular intercity rail traveller my heart will drop if the loco hauled mk4 CAF sets are ever replaced with these hideous boring yo-yos. If I got a model of an ICR as a present I'd give it away to a child who'd appreciate it better and enjoy watching it race around the top of a kitchen table in frantic circles.

 

 

I seem to recall there was a similar situation with a repainted of Bachmann 158s to masquerade as 2600s

[jhb171achill]

28 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

 

I seem to recall there was a similar situation with a repainted of Bachmann 158s to masquerade as 2600s

Goes to show how we've moved on, again, and I've said it many times before, thanks to the great crop of model-manufacturers both kit and RTR, that we have now.

It should always be remembered by all of us that these guys are putting good-sized five figure sums into the production of an item and for what commercially is a very small market indeed. Praise be to them all!

Sure back when I was a mere stripling, back when pussy was a kitten, Irish modelling meant crudely painting a BR Mk 1 in orange and black, or sticking paper sides over it, carefully coloured in with marker pen!

Actual RTR stuff? Pipe Dream!

[Noel]

9 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

I seem to recall there was a similar situation with a repainted of Bachmann 158s to masquerade as 2600s

Yes indeed. How this:

 

Is supposed to be a model of and look like this: (Photo Railpictures.lnet)

Is beyond me. I was offered one of the Bachmann models a few years ago at a very good price but felt €120 was too much to pay for a door stop or a paper weight.  It was a decent paint job, but of the wrong model biscuit tin suitable for short commutes.

[BosKonay]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

 

It should always be remembered by all of us that these guys are putting good-sized five figure sums into the production of an item and for what commercially is a very small market indeed. Praise be to them all!

To provide some perspective it’s pretty much all six figure costs up front and something like the A costs half way to 7 figures. 

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

.

As well as pondering on that, ever since the dying days of the Irish Mk IIIs, I've wondered if they would have lasted longer if they had been push-pull?

 

Its believed that replacing the MK3 fleet with IRCs was more economical, in terms of operating and maintenance costs than a Mid-life refit of the MK3 Fleet.

The big advantage from a customer service and operating perspective is that with a uniform carriage fleet IE has eliminated that "frayed edge of quality" problem which plagued BR & CIE with widely different types and standards of Intercity passenger stock.

CIE originally planned to build at least some of the MK2D Supertrain, MK3 stock and the "International Train" as push-pull sets, particularly for use on Heuston-Waterford and Heuston-Limerick services.

A MK2D driving cab mock up was assembled at Inchacore, the additional funding to assemble the coaches as push-pull stock does not appear to be available. 

A similar issue arose when the Government rejected IEs proposals to build railcars to replace Park Royal stock on commuter services arose in the late 80s.

Approval was given to build 5 Push-Pull driving trailers convertible to railcars, the order for Intercity Coaches was reduced to 100, the remaining 24 coaches were built as Push-Pull trailers.

In the big picture of things rail makes up a pretty insignificant proportion of Ireland passenger journeys (<5%) (OECD Performance Review 2000) it could be argued that the Irish rail users, IE and its workers are very lucky to have a railway, as the Irish Government would get a better economic and environmental return by abolishing CIE and de-regulating the bus and coaching industry.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Mayner

[LostCarPark]

I thought @driver301 did a better job on the ICR - in N gauge! I believe his was based on a UK class 168, which also has commuter style doors, but he seems to have fixed them.

I appreciate options are limited when repainting a train from another operator.

Personally I don't hate the ICRs, but I'd have preferred if we could a version of the 3CK instead. I also think it was crazy to get rid of the Mk3 Push Pull sets.

[Georgeconna]

4 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes indeed. How this:

 

Is supposed to be a model of and look like this: (Photo Railpictures.lnet)

Is beyond me. I was offered one of the Bachmann models a few years ago at a very good price but felt €120 was too much to pay for a door stop or a paper weight.  It was a decent paint job, but of the wrong model biscuit tin suitable for short commutes.

 

Well despite that they sold by the bucket loads Noel whilst I was working for Marks so the gamble paid off. Most people buying these would not know anyhow or even care.

It only took me 25 years to realise that the Hornby Mark III's were much shorter than the real thing. Did I care as a 12 year old. Not a jot! I enjoyed playing with em and most likely had LNER Teaks in the 125 set to make up the numbers!

 

 

 

 

[WRENNEIRE]

And they still sell well whenever they can be picked up

It always amuses me to listen to the knockers, and there are a few on here, who point out whats wrong with RTR stuff

If they see something that is not true to form and point it out, unless they can provide a better example then STFU.

Lima 33's sold well back in the day and indeed still sell relatively well, as did Jouef and Hornby Hymeks and as George has said the 2700's sold well

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[Noel]

@WRENNEIRE Nice to know you were entertained.  Its free of charge. Perhaps the real knockers were some who character assassinated SF and IFM models over the years. AAMOI have you ever sat on an ICR as far as say WestPort or Tralee? Point taken about eye of beholders. There may probably be a market in the toy segment for the Bachmann 2600s and ICRs which suit roundy-roundy on the kitchen table of a Christmas morning or on the carpet. As you know I'm no rivet counter but the doors on the Bachmann are not alone in the wrong place, but the windows are nothing like IR 2x00 class DMUs. As you know I don't really look much at the gubbins below the sole bar   but somebody who knows about this kind if stuff I'm sure might have issue if a modeller with the Bachmann's difference to the Irish prototypes in that area. Nuff said. See you in Bray sometime. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Noel

[NIR]

I don't mind the MUs so much as the anaemic platform and bridge rebuilds, just so long as they leave a few wonky refuge sidings and loops here and there.

[LostCarPark]

Totally agree with @WRENNEIRE. I think it's great to see models like this on the shelves, and I think it's fantastic that people who just want a train set have some vaguely Irish options available.

I get the impression that some people on this thread wouldn't buy them even if they were perfect scale reproductions.

[skinner75]

Rivet counters like counting rivets

[hexagon789]

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Goes to show how we've moved on, again, and I've said it many times before, thanks to the great crop of model-manufacturers both kit and RTR, that we have now.

It should always be remembered by all of us that these guys are putting good-sized five figure sums into the production of an item and for what commercially is a very small market indeed. Praise be to them all!

Sure back when I was a mere stripling, back when pussy was a kitten, Irish modelling meant crudely painting a BR Mk 1 in orange and black, or sticking paper sides over it, carefully coloured in with marker pen!

Actual RTR stuff? Pipe Dream!

Certainly there's a place for it, and I do appreciate the effort made to make passable models for certain trains that are more representations than highly accurate, correct models but personally I'd rather pay more for the proper thing than a different train all together simply painted up.

 

10 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes indeed. How this:

 

Is supposed to be a model of and look like this: (Photo Railpictures.lnet)

Is beyond me. I was offered one of the Bachmann models a few years ago at a very good price but felt €120 was too much to pay for a door stop or a paper weight.  It was a decent paint job, but of the wrong model biscuit tin suitable for short commutes.

Yeah, that was the one I was thinking of. Nice enough colour scheme, but side-by-side it ain't a 2700.

 

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

Its believed that replacing the MK3 fleet with IRCs was more economical, in terms of operating and maintenance costs than a Mid-life refit of the MK3 Fleet.

The big advantage from a customer service and operating perspective is that with a uniform carriage fleet IE has eliminated that "frayed edge of quality" problem which plagued BR & CIE with widely different types and standards of Intercity passenger stock.

CIE originally planned to build at least some of the MK2D Supertrain, MK3 stock and the "International Train" as push-pull sets, particularly for use on Heuston-Waterford and Heuston-Limerick services.

A MK2D driving cab mock up was assembled at Inchacore, the additional funding to assemble the coaches as push-pull stock does not appear to be available. 

A similar issue arose when the Government rejected IEs proposals to build railcars to replace Park Royal stock on commuter services arose in the late 80s.

Approval was given to build 5 Push-Pull driving trailers convertible to railcars, the order for Intercity Coaches was reduced to 100, the remaining 24 coaches were built as Push-Pull trailers.

In the big picture of things rail makes up a pretty insignificant proportion of Ireland passenger journeys (<5%) (OECD Performance Review 2000) it could be argued that the Irish rail users, IE and its workers are very lucky to have a railway, as the Irish Government would get a better economic and environmental return by abolishing CIE and de-regulating the bus and coaching industry.

Well railcars are supposed to be cheaper to run, though the tipping point here in the UK was traditionally 5 coaches. Above that loco-hauled was cheaper, witness the return of loco-haulage to the TransPennine route, though that was more because of the immediate need for stock.

 

5 hours ago, Noel said:

but somebody who knows about this kind if stuff I'm sure might have issue if a modeller with the Bachmann's difference to the Irish prototypes in that area.

 

Not sure about looks, but most BR 158s share engine type with 2600, 2700 and 2800s all 350hp Cummins iirc.

Transmission is different, I believe the IÉ railcars are all 3-speed hydraulics, 158s are two-speed.

[minister_for_hardship]

3 hours ago, skinner75 said:

Rivet counters like counting rivets

It's funny that many who may have problems with a railcar see no issue with 00 scale stock on 'HO' gauge track, wrong for UK outline not to mind Irish. 

It's fine, it's the Irish equivalent of a Hornby freelance loco set, it sold well and at a price bracket to suit folks who would baulk at the price of something like a RTR J15 I've no problem with that. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

[Noel]

I'm not a rivet counter, but for my personal tastes these don't even pass the 'duck test' let alone the 2ft rule

[irishthump]

8 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

 

It only took me 25 years to realise that the Hornby Mark III's were much shorter than the real thing. Did I care as a 12 year old. Not a jot! 

 

 

 

 

I’m 46 and still don’t care!

[burnthebox]

I’m with Georgeconna & Wrenneire on this, beauty, the Shape, the Size the looks or whatever you wish to call it is in the eye of the beholder, ( Buyer ) Whether it’s at 2 Feet or 50 Feet, after all its Model Railways....isn’t it..

BTB

[RedRich]

On 2/23/2020 at 6:36 PM, Noel said:

Dear RQ I started this thread to express a) my observations about the bachmann class 170 commuter DMUs which were supposed to be IE ICRs not commuter DMUs, b) express my dislike of prototypical ICRs based on experience travelling on them in Ireland, and c) My dislike generally of DMUs from a modelling perspective because they offer are operationally extremely boring (ie no shunting, no runarounds) just shorties running back'n'forth or round'n'round. I did not intend to start a rant fest, you are the only person who has responded such. I apologise if it sounded like a rant, I just dislike the dam things and very glad not to have any DMU models, they are also too modern for my personal liking as you well know my favourite era is late 1950s to mid 1970s before the modern era rolling stock came in from 1972 onwards and especially after 1974  (ie fitted brake and bogie goods stock). The railways seemed to become operationally boring after 1974 with uniform rakes of fitted stock, and uniform rakes of coaches, which from a modelling perspective for me anyway offers little operating interest on a layout (ie compared to shunting 2 axle wagon formations and marshalling variable coach formations at terminus stations. As a traveller I used to very much enjoy travelling on mk3 services, DD to Belfast and now the mk4 CAFs to Cork, but as already explained not a fan of the ICRs either as a traveller or rail enthusiast. I remember fondly travelling on rickety but exciting and interesting Craven, Park Royal, Laminate and Bredin variable formations in the 60s and 70s. Passenger trains splitting in two at midland stations to head to different towns. But I do understand from an economics point of view why ICRs exist and what cost savings they offered (ie no loco marshalling needed, ability to ditch the ageing 141/181 fleet, no runaround track formations needed at stations and associated maintenance, less IR employees needed, faster turnarounds, etc). There was a time you could eat a fry or a stake on an Irish intercity train, now its a kit-kat or just a processed sandwich. Travel by rail is not what it used to be, and rightly or wrongly I associate same with cost cutting and the widespread adoption of ICRs. I cannot imagine I would ever want to watch boring prototypes in operation, unlike loco hauled trains which have appeal. It appears I am not alone in that view. Good evening.

Right I am going to be as constructive in answering your post and as polite as I can be. You say you like the era pre early seventies and don't like the rolling stock that came after. You like loose fitted goods trains two axle wagons. You don't like bogie goods stock, yet you have bogie goods stock on your layout. You didn't like weathered stock it had to be pristine yet weathered stock appeared. You have a 201 class, MK11 aircon coaches, Hornby MK1V BR IC models repainted in IE Inter City that never ran here and you mocked and berated Chris Dyers model. Do you see the theme here.

I see that as a mindless contradictory theme running through your posts and I cannot take people like that seriously. I am sure that there are dozens on the forum that are as less enamored with AEC railcars as you are are with DMU and ICR stock. They don't come on here and have a rant like the theme of the op. 

Try and take some of that onboard. Think before you hit the submit reply button 

You once said to me in a post that if we met we might get on. I see IRM like a big club that we are all members of and if we were face to face right now I would be telling you exactly what I have posted here no problem.

As I have said there is to much contradiction in a lot of your posts and it is hard to respect some of what you say.

Rich,

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by RedRich

[skinner75]

13 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

It's funny that many who may have problems with a railcar see no issue with 00 scale stock on 'HO' gauge track, wrong for UK outline not to mind Irish. 

It's fine, it's the Irish equivalent of a Hornby freelance loco set, it sold well and at a price bracket to suit folks who would baulk at the price of something like a RTR J15 I've no problem with that. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

You took me up the wrong way - I don't have a problem with it, in fact I have one of the sets!

[LostCarPark]

17 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

It's funny that many who may have problems with a railcar see no issue with 00 scale stock on 'HO' gauge track, wrong for UK outline not to mind Irish. 

I've often wondered why we seem to prefer the UK scales (1:76 OO/1:148 N) when European scales (1:87 HO/1:160 N) would at least be a little more in scale with the track. I've occasionally thought it might be fun to model a railway that treated standard track as Irish gauge and built the models to scale with it (1:97 HO/1:178 N). But then I slap myself and realise it wouldn't be fun it would be insane.

[minister_for_hardship]

1 hour ago, LostCarPark said:

I've often wondered why we seem to prefer the UK scales (1:76 OO/1:148 N) when European scales (1:87 HO/1:160 N) would at least be a little more in scale with the track. I've occasionally thought it might be fun to model a railway that treated standard track as Irish gauge and built the models to scale with it (1:97 HO/1:178 N). But then I slap myself and realise it wouldn't be fun it would be insane.

Historically we used repaints/kit bashes and surgery of British 00 as nothing on the continent with very few exceptions (GNRI Mak, Deutz, CSE O&K and Cockerills) were remotely similar to Irish stock in appearance. We are left with this gauge/scale screw up because British manufacturers couldn't fit their large motors of the time into bodyshells.