IRM A Class; Our First Locomotive!

[DiveController]

12 hours ago, Eiretrains said:

Yes I believe it was the last A Class in service to carry the green livery. It was involved in the Mullingar smash in December 1963 and when it re-emerged from the works repaired a year or two later it was in the dark green livery mentioned above, which it had until the late 1960s, it should have been repainted into the black colours but Inchicore staff painted it green so making it a little unique.

So, prior (and during) the accident in 1963 what was A42 liveried in? Also dark green which was restored or something else e.g. light green?  Certainly that would be the loco to have in dark green for anyone modeling the later 1960s but depending what it wore before that would it also appropriate to 1955-1963 also? if so, a must for sure.

[Keitheg6]

What kind of numbers of models are you looking to produce? Same for each livery ? 

[DiveController]

3 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Variation details have now been enhanced on each model spec

https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/a-class-locomotive/products/a1-a-class-locomotive

for example, listing snatchers, caws, panel information.

When we get a moment post show, we'll be updating the CAD models to be specific 100% to each model, as well as publishing a complete variation and detail matrix per model helping with choices!

There re so many variations of the A class, it might be helpful to show these in chronological order on the website and maybe include some data on the years that model wold be most appropriate to e.g. "last model to wear dark green into the late 1960s", "One of only several locos repainted with high sided waistband BnT after rebuilt" etc 

[Dead Kennedy]

Hi there, will there be further CIE 001 Supertrain releases in the future. 018 looks to be the only one of the 17 announced that would run with early Liner/ Tara Mines/Fertilizer and Ammonia so a minimum of 4 would be req'd. I can double order the same running number but 4 x 018 is a bit conspicuous. Well done on the release announcement - they look absolutely brilliant.

[aclass007]

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

There re so many variations of the A class, it might be helpful to show these in chronological order on the website and maybe include some data on the years that model wold be most appropriate to e.g. "last model to wear dark green into the late 1960s", "One of only several locos repainted with high sided waistband BnT after rebuilt" etc 

If you click the 'Sort by' arrow at the top of the page on the website, there are several options, including listing the locos from Oldest to Newest, and vice versa 

[BosKonay]

There are also filters on the left hand side of the page so you can list just CIE era or green or just silver etc. 

[DiveController]

3 hours ago, aclass007 said:

If you click the 'Sort by' arrow at the top of the page on the website, there are several options, including listing the locos from Oldest to Newest, and vice versa 

Thanks, class I hadn't noticed that and it does seem to order them in chronological order of the prototype rather than the order the CAD files were uploaded.

There are also filters on the left hand side of the page so you can list just CIE era or green or just silver etc. 

Thanks for that, Stephen

 

PROVISION FOR REGAUGING TO 21MM

I did not fully understand the complexities of reguaging previous IRM products such as the ballasts, orange bubbles and ploughs (personal inexperience in that arena). I understand that this will be a is a much simpler process on the ferts, blue Taras and (I presume) the container liner, with 21mm Em or P4 wheel sets that can simply be dropped into the bogie without modification?

Specifically, what would be required in regard to take the A class locos from 16mm to EM or P4 spec? Changing the RP25-110 wheels OO wheels with provision for re-gauging to 21mm gauge means I would need to replace wheel sets only?

What would be required on the motored bogie?

Will any modification be required to the plastic body/bogies themselves to facilitate this?

Thanks in advance

Edited October 28, 2018 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, DiveController said:

So, prior (and during) the accident in 1963 what was A42 liveried in? Also dark green which was restored or something else e.g. light green?  Certainly that would be the loco to have in dark green for anyone modeling the later 1960s but depending what it wore before that would it also appropriate to 1955-1963 also? if so, a must for sure.

The dark green would have replaced the silver and further research seems to confirm it was a one-off. It was not dark green previously, and no other “A” was. Thus, no “A” was dark green in the fifties - they were all silver (or more to the point, coated in a greyish filth!). They, the Cs and the B101s were all distinctly UN-photogenic then! 

All three classes got the light green from about 1959ish.

So, if accuracy is wanted, if it’s dark green, it can only be A42, and it can only be 1963-9, and it can only be with a waist level line. Light green locos variously did, and did not have, lining.

[DiveController]

That's exactly what I was wondering, JB. I know the silver didn't last that long but wasn't sure when the green started. So after the intro silver livery, it was light green, lined or not, from '59 onwards and then A42 in dark green lined only repainted in '63 until late 60s somewhere. I presume it want to a Black or B'n'T livery after that before the introduction of supertrain livery after c 1972.

 The only point of confusion in my mind is Glover's (your) quote regarding  A10, 11,15,24,25,34,45,51,54,57,59 &60 being dark green with waistband by late 1959, one loco us in light green (A46). Typo with  A10, 11,15,24,25,34,45,51,54,57,59 &60 being the first into light green by late 1959 and A46 remaining in silver until dark green post 1963. Would that be right?

Edited October 28, 2018 by DiveController

[ttc0169]

Delighted with the news of the forthcoming and much needed 001 class,I nearly chocked on my breakfast with the news on Saturday morning prior to attending the exhibition, Deposit paid-looking forward to the painted samples in due course,

Thank you Fran, Patrick, Stephen and Richard for making the dream a reality and every success for the future....

[Noel]

Hi Guys

Could you please give a little more detail on which variant of the Black'n'Tan livery is on your three B&T locos as it is not apparent from the current web site listings.

• A15
• A23R
• A39R

In particular which ones have the 'stepped' lower and thiner orange band?

Also is A46 the lined green loco, the lighter or darker shade of green?

Many thanks

Noel

[richrua]

I stuck one of your flyers up on my bedroom wall. 

The wife is not happy.

[DiveController]

18 minutes ago, Noel said:

Hi Guys

Could you please give a little more detail on which variant of the Black'n'Tan livery is on your three B&T locos as it is not apparent from the current web site listings.

• A15
• A23R
• A39R

In particular which ones have the 'stepped' lower and thiner orange band?

Also is A46 the lined green loco, the lighter or darker shade of green?

Many thanks

Noel

Barry Carse's Irish Metro-Vicks Diesels is for me one of the best references on the As (&Cs). The Cs definitely had high and low waistbands but I'll see if I can check details on the As when I get home (since I posted above about waistbands before an adequate supply of coffee)

[Noel]

9 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Barry Carse's Irish Metro-Vicks Diesels is for me one of the best references on the As (&Cs). The Cs definitely had high and low waistbands but I'll see if I can check details on the As when I get home (since I posted above about waistbands before an adequate supply of coffee)

Thanks Kevin.  As far as I know all the B&T locos initially had high waist level (i.e. wide like A39R is now) orange bands similar to coaches, but at various stages after rebuild some of them had the narrow lower level 'stepped' orange band like A3R below. I'm just now sure which of the IRM B&T locos have the stepped narrow orange band.

Photo from Steve Johnson's web site http://www.stephenjohnsonrailways.co.uk/A Class.htm

[Eiretrains]

9 hours ago, DiveController said:

So, prior (and during) the accident in 1963 what was A42 liveried in? Also dark green which was restored or something else e.g. light green?  Certainly that would be the loco to have in dark green for anyone modeling the later 1960s but depending what it wore before that would it also appropriate to 1955-1963 also? if so, a must for sure.

Locomotive A42 was originally in the silver as delivered and it may have retained this prior to the accident, as a few silver ones survived into early 1960s (in poor appearance as one can imagine) but I suspect if it had a livery change before then it would be green. This picture (slightly off colour) suggests dark green without lining in 1962, a year before Mullingar - date may be suspect though. I may draw attention that the dark green it did re-emerge in following the accident did not feature any lining too (like as in the picture) and it remained so until repainted into the overall black livery just prior to the re-engining programme.

[Glenderg]

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

Thanks, class I hadn't noticed that and it does seem to order them in chronological order of the prototype rather than the order the CAD files were uploaded.

Thanks for that, Stephen

 

PROVISION FOR REGAUGING TO 21MM

I did not fully understand the complexities of reguaging previous IRM products such as the ballasts, orange bubbles and ploughs (personal inexperience in that arena). I understand that this will be a is a much simpler process on the ferts, blue Taras and (I presume) the container liner, with 21mm Em or P4 wheel sets that can simply be dropped into the bogie without modification?

Specifically, what would be required in regard to take the A class locos from 16mm to EM or P4 spec? Changing the RP25-110 wheels OO wheels with provision for re-gauging to 21mm gauge means I would need to replace wheel sets only?

What would be required on the motored bogie?

Will any modification be required to the plastic body/bogies themselves to facilitate this?

Thanks in advance

OK, this is complex, so bear with me Kevin. There's no such thing as EM 21mm or P4 21mm. It's just 21mm. There are different wheel profiles and back to backs for all 3,so to avoid confusion for any other lads, I'll refer to it as 21mm.

The gauge or width of track is 16.5mm, not 16mm for 00. I design all the wagons and locos to 1:1 and then scale them, that's where compromise kicks in. A bit like the taras, you'll have 28mm axles with wheels at 16.5mm. 

So, when one approaches the A class for 21mm conversion, it's as straightforward as removing the panel underneath the bogie, removing the axles, (leaving the cogs on the axles), and removing the wheels from the axles, assuming you'll want rp25_88 (EM) or ultrascale wheels. 

This is all dependent on the track gauge and scale you have. 

As for the queries about colours and details, I know it can be confusing about high waist black and tan crossleys versus high waist EMD's, and cranked livery for rebuilt versions. We will amend the website to make things easier during the week, but we've spent a long time on this project, and all your concerns about wipers, rivets, green livery (which one?) and so on, will all be addressed. 

Every variant like sandboxes, wipers, and speedometers have been modelled, I just have to make 15 more models to reflect each variant. 

I'm looking forward to the livery discussion.. ! 

Rich

[RobertRoche]

Looking forward to seeing the different liveries on the site!

[JasonB]

Ordered mine today. IR livery with dayglow panels. Happy as a pig in s***. Stand looked seriously impressive aswell guys. 

[DiveController]

5 hours ago, Glenderg said:

OK, this is complex, so bear with me Kevin. There's no such thing as EM 21mm or P4 21mm. It's just 21mm. There are different wheel profiles and back to backs for all 3,so to avoid confusion for any other lads, I'll refer to it as 21mm.

The gauge or width of track is 16.5mm, not 16mm for 00. I design all the wagons and locos to 1:1 and then scale them, that's where compromise kicks in. A bit like the taras, you'll have 28mm axles with wheels at 16.5mm. 

So, when one approaches the A class for 21mm conversion, it's as straightforward as removing the panel underneath the bogie, removing the axles, (leaving the cogs on the axles), and removing the wheels from the axles, assuming you'll want rp25_88 (EM) or ultrascale wheels. 

This is all dependent on the track gauge and scale you have. 

As for the queries about colours and details, I know it can be confusing about high waist black and tan crossleys versus high waist EMD's, and cranked livery for rebuilt versions. We will amend the website to make things easier during the week, but we've spent a long time on this project, and all your concerns about wipers, rivets, green livery (which one?) and so on, will all be addressed. 

Every variant like sandboxes, wipers, and speedometers have been modelled, I just have to make 15 more models to reflect each variant. 

I'm looking forward to the livery discussion.. ! 

Rich

Hi Richie,

Thanks for that explanation which is all understood. I mentioned EM and P4 for clarity and no more. That's a very neat conversion and leaves me (others?) with a very simple 21mm conversion indeed. I know you've worked very hard on this and frankly I'm amazed at how many variations you've managed to CAD. I'm sure all will be addressed and the website will be improved upon and if I created the impression that IRM's efforts were lacking in any way that was not intended and other than the green livery discussion I haven't brought up wipers, absent wipers, single wipers, rivets, visible fuel gauges, train heating connectors, hose pipe colors, fuel tank sizes etc. I think I'll leave that to the experts. Anyway they're a beautiful set of models that cater to everyone and I'm looking forward to purchasing several of them from silver through Black/yellow, maybe Supertrain.

Best,

 K

[enniscorthyman]

Well we have come a long way from the repainted Lima class 33 in the 1970s,of which I had one.Thank you so much to the four IRM guys for this model and the high quality releases done and in the process.

My head is in a spin on what to order and how many.I think two IR and two super train will get me started.

 

[jhb171achill]

13 hours ago, Noel said:

Thanks Kevin.  As far as I know all the B&T locos initially had high waist level (i.e. wide like A39R is now) orange bands similar to coaches, but at various stages after rebuild some of them had the narrow lower level 'stepped' orange band like A3R below. I'm just now sure which of the IRM B&T locos have the stepped narrow orange band.

Photo from Steve Johnson's web site http://www.stephenjohnsonrailways.co.uk/A Class.htm

Very very few had the “high band” orange / tan. I think no more than 2 / 3 / 4. And I don’t know if A39R was one of them. The lower band as shown on A3R above was standard. Even the “high tan” ones got that eventually. 

This is seriously nerdy, and I wouldn’t even mention it but for the first cveprional degree of accuracy on the IRM models. The font used on the “R” on A3 is not quite right, nor is that used on the preserved A39 and C231. Refer to photos for the correct font, or the preserved G613, G617 and the two “E”s, all on the DCDR.

[Mayner]

The A Class & the Liner Train wagons are a bit of a dilemma to me as I have basically decided to concentrate on modelling the Midland in the steam age before I was tempted by high quality Kato & Atlas American rtr N gauge  locos and stock about 30 years ago 

In a way British and Irish "modern image" models (both kit and rtr)  lagged behind the standard of what was available in the the United States and the Continent and what could be achieved by assembling some of the British and Irish outline kits that were available at the time, others were basically un-buildable or only fit for ballast.

While the MIR GM diesels and rolling stock kits were reasonably good by the standards of the day and Q kits resin diesels could be built into a reasonable model, there were a few real horrors including a whitemetal A Class possibly produced by MTK for MIR with distorted and porus castings and cab ends with a distinct squint to one side. 

The IRM A Class seems to lift the standard for rtr locos in Ireland and the UK in a similar manner to Atlas commissioning Kato to produce HO & N gauge locos for the American market which lead the way to twin flywheel center motor drive as the standard for diesel and electric locomotives. Interestingly a lot of the improvements in the hobby are being driven by small businesses like IRM through their enthusiasm and business,  rather to established players, thanks to changing technology and procurement methods.

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Mayner

[aclass007]

50 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Very very few had the “high band” orange / tan. I think no more than 2 / 3 / 4. And I don’t know if A39R was one of them. The lower band as shown on A3R above was standard. Even the “high tan” ones got that eventually. 

This is seriously nerdy, and I wouldn’t even mention it but for the first cveprional degree of accuracy on the IRM models. The font used on the “R” on A3 is not quite right, nor is that used on the preserved A39 and C231. Refer to photos for the correct font, or the preserved G613, G617 and the two “E”s, all on the DCDR.

A39 did in fact carry the high band tan in service. In fact, unusually, she carried that livery before being rebuilt.... 

[Mayner]

1 minute ago, aclass007 said:

A39 did in fact carry the high band tan in service. In fact, unusually, she carried that livery before being rebuilt.... 

A number of A Class appear to have been painted in the high band scheme before the all-black with white eyebrow scheme was introduced. There are photos of A6, 15,16,39 in Barry Carse's book. The tan band on A6 (the guinea pig for the scheme_ almost looks shallower than the other locos or possibly an optical illusion.

The low band was originally called the "dipped" scheme in contemporary IRRS Journals may have been introduced like the black to make grime and oil spillage of the flanks of these locos less noticeable. Even the flanks of the  re-engined Metrovicks  tended to get dirty very quickly compared to the pure bred GM locos, I am not sure if the weathering arose as a result of oil leakage similar to the IC125 power cars in the UK or simply grime washed off the roof by the weather.

Possibly a case for a some form of dynamic weathering (smoke unit?) so that the loco becomes increasingly dirty as mileage/time in service build up.

[iarnrod]

Anyone know when the CAWS, both unprotected and the later protected versions and toughened windscreens were fitted to these locos?

 

[Noel]

45 minutes ago, aclass007 said:

A39 did in fact carry the high band tan in service. In fact, unusually, she carried that livery before being rebuilt.... 

The orange band here seems very high, higher than the band would have been on adjacent B&T coaching stock of the 60s and 70s. Pity the white flash on the front of the cab is also completely wrong.

[Warbonnet]

15 hours ago, Noel said:

Thanks Kevin.  As far as I know all the B&T locos initially had high waist level (i.e. wide like A39R is now) orange bands similar to coaches, but at various stages after rebuild some of them had the narrow lower level 'stepped' orange band like A3R below. I'm just now sure which of the IRM B&T locos have the stepped narrow orange band.

Photo from Steve Johnson's web site http://www.stephenjohnsonrailways.co.uk/A Class.htm

Hi Noel,

A23r has the low band, while A39R and A15 have the high band. These are all taken from prototype period photos of the locos in service.

Cheers!

Fran

[Noel]

5 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Noel,

A23r has the low band, while A39R and A15 have the high band. These are all taken from prototype period photos of the locos in service.

Cheers!

Fran

Thanks Fran. There were two heights used for the higher band B&T livery. Restored A39r on the photo above had the higher high band (forgive the highs), whereas many high band A's had the slightly thinner high band set at the same height as the front cab band of A3r above without stepping down along the sides.  You can see the difference in heights using the marker lights on cab front. I assume the IRM A39R will be like the restored loco, but will A15 be quite the same height as the untypical high band on A39r?

A3r photo above shows the correct white flash above the cab windows.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Noel
to avoid causing offence or hurt

[Noel]

Order placed.  Will start building new loco shed.

 

[Garfield]

6 hours ago, Noel said:

Thanks Fran. There were two heights used for the higher band B&T livery. Restored A39r on the photo above had the higher high band (forgive the highs), whereas many high band A's had the slightly thinner high band set at the same height as the front cab band of A3r above without stepping down along the sides.  You can see the difference in heights using the marker lights on cab front. I assume the IRM A39R will be like the restored loco, but will A15 be quite the same height as the untypical high band on A39r?

A3r photo above at least shows the correct white flash above the cab windows.

<snip>

Hi Noel,

As Fran said above, all liveries will be based on photographic evidence, specifically from when the locomotives were in CIÉ/Irish Rail service. 

Thanks for your order, and for your continued support of IRM and our products. 

[Noel]

2 hours ago, Garfield said:

Hi Noel,

As Fran said above, all liveries will be based on photographic evidence, specifically from when the locomotives were in CIÉ/Irish Rail service. 

Thanks Patrick.

Yes, I fully understood from Fran's (@Warbonnet) post IRM would be 'bang on the money' and accurate to evidence of past liveries via photos, etc, and I now understand IRM's A23r will have the lower stepped band. Please forgive, perhaps I should have phrased my query more clearly. It seems there were two variations of height on the high (i.e. non-stepped) orange band applied at different times on all B&T A classes. My query was simply which of the two high band variations have IRM chosen for A15? 

Cheers

Noel

[RedRich]

Totally agree Pat the herculean work done by the folks in these societies is massive. It's a passion and in some cases a vocation for these wonderful  people. Reading a lot of posts and the above post you have quoted and their content over several threads is becoming tiresom and boring. It is also an insult to these people in these societies.

Rich,

[irishthump]

Lads,

 

Early days but just a couple of questions regarding the DCC end of things for the A Class (meant to ask in person yesterday but I forgot in all the excitement!)

I'm assuming the loco will require a 21PIN decoder judging by the sheer amount of lighting functions. Would that be correct?

Also you mention a specific sound project and decoder being in the works can you give any more info on that? Will it be an ESU product as with the MM 071/201 or a bespoke product from one of the UK sound producers (Legomanbiffo or MrSoundguy for example).

[flange lubricator]

5 hours ago, Noel said:

Order placed.  Will start building new loco shed.

 

To some of us it will be a case of order placed will start building new dog house!

[Warbonnet]

2 hours ago, irishthump said:

Lads,

 

Early days but just a couple of questions regarding the DCC end of things for the A Class (meant to ask in person yesterday but I forgot in all the excitement!)

I'm assuming the loco will require a 21PIN decoder judging by the sheer amount of lighting functions. Would that be correct?

Also you mention a specific sound project and decoder being in the works can you give any more info on that? Will it be an ESU product as with the MM 071/201 or a bespoke product from one of the UK sound producers (Legomanbiffo or MrSoundguy for example).

Hi Graham,

its still early days in that department but will be most likely 21pin and it will be with ESU.

Cheers,

Fran