Murphy Models new 201 and Mk3 coaches

[connollystn]

Have to disagree with you.

[RedRich]

This is an interesting thread. What I am finding is that the larger majority of folk in here are happy with a particular level of detail and accuracy in their loco, wagon, or coach. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I am a bit more zealous in that department myself than most but that's my choice. I will mention one area on the model that really should have been sorted before it was signed off is it should have flush glazing on the cab front. Hopefully it will be flush on the planned releases. It shouldn't be difficult.

I have huge respect for PM and the 121, 141-181, 071, classes are fantastic models. The Cravens are still one of the best models of a coach available in this scale. How many of you on getting a model compare it to the  prototype by looking at lots of photos in your collection or on line. Many pics we see of locos don't show the underframe in full side on, but there are hundreds on flickr.

Over the last two years the 121 and A Class models have reached heights that have once more raised the bar and both manufacturer's deserve all the praise they are getting. 

However they don't always get it right. The pre production pics give us all an opportunity to offer our opinion and it is well received by PM and IRM  If someone buys a model and finds there are discrepancies or mistakes he is 100 percent entitled to say so.

I have three 201's myself and my opinion is that they don't reach the heights the others do. There are many ways to take them up a level especially the underframe. Add Salem air drying filters, and pipes from brass rod to represent those on the prototype. The fuel tanks are a wee bit naked but some pieces of evergreen styrene can make a huge difference. The air reservoir air tanks are a bit slimmer than they should be 

Anyone wanting to look at pics for inspiration and having a go at adding these details shouldn't be singled out with the old rivet counter moniker. Surely it is a huge part of our hobby we do call ourselves modellers after all.

Rich,

 

 

[Dempsey]

I think in some ways we have come to expect too much with the increase in standard of not only in manufacturing but in the level of detail of newer models over all that we can forget that these models have to be made to not only give the manufacturers the must bang for their buck but also the modeller and compromises done have to be mad on both sides. Just my two cents. 

[DJ Dangerous]

2 minutes ago, RedRich said:

This is an interesting thread. What I am finding is that the larger majority of folk in here are happy with a particular level of detail and accuracy in their loco, wagon, or coach. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I am a bit more zealous in that department myself than most but that's my choice. I will mention one area on the model that really should have been sorted before it was signed off is it should have flush glazing on the cab front. Hopefully it will be flush on the planned releases. It shouldn't be difficult.

I have huge respect for PM and the 121, 141-181, 071, classes are fantastic models. The Cravens are still one of the best models of a coach available in this scale. How many of you on getting a model compare it to the  prototype by looking at lots of photos in your collection or on line. Many pics we see of locos don't show the underframe in full side on, but there are hundreds on flickr.

Over the last two years the 121 and A Class models have reached heights that have once more raised the bar and both manufacturer's deserve all the praise they are getting. 

However they don't always get it right. The pre production pics give us all an opportunity to offer our opinion and it is well received by PM and IRM  If someone buys a model and finds there are discrepancies or mistakes he is 100 percent entitled to say so.

I have three 201's myself and my opinion is that they don't reach the heights the others do. There are many ways to take them up a level especially the underframe. Add Salem air drying filters, and pipes from brass rod to represent those on the prototype. The fuel tanks are a wee bit naked but some pieces of evergreen styrene can make a huge difference. The air reservoir air tanks are a bit slimmer than they should be 

Anyone wanting to look at pics for inspiration and having a go at adding these details shouldn't be singled out with the old rivet counter moniker. Surely it is a huge part of our hobby we do call ourselves modellers after all.

Rich,

 

 

 

Rivet counting isn't a bad thing, as it will ultimately drive up standards for future models. Eventually, you'll hit diminishing marginal returns, where it's not feasable to invest beyond a certain point to reach a certain level of detail, and that's when the bespoke modellers take over.

However, when a poster says the following with nothing to back it up, you have to question the post and ask for more info.

 

On 9/12/2021 at 8:56 PM, connollystn said:

Not a fan of the Murpby Models 201. Doesn't capture the character of the prototype due to obvious inaccuraracies. Consodering what the guys at I.R.M. did with the A class would much prefer them to do an up-to-date mode of the 201(new).

 

I haven't yet seen anything to support the statement that the model doesn't capture the character of the prototype.

If we were talking about the Lima 201's, then fine, the bogies and undercarriages are very wierd on them, but the next generation MM201's were not a poor model at all.

[jhb171achill]

The modelling world is, of course, a broad canvas. Just as some of us are particular about one aspect of it, and others not particular about any aspect of it as long as lots of trains fly around the room, wouldn't make either right or wrong. There's the old "Rule 1"; "It's my railway".

Equally with models. For me, I want livery to be accurate for the model depicted, and my pet hate is the perpetuation by badly-researched preservation projects of incorrect liveries, which then end up being reproduced in reality and on models as if they were actual. Others, of course, won't have any interest in livery accuracy. Same with engineering details - some will notice the wrong number of rivets on an obscure bogie design, while to others it's "just a bogie".

We're all "right" on OUR layout, and none of us are "wrong".

So to a model 071 or 201 - if a manufacturer were to produce a model of every single solitary variation in livery, numerals, lamp brackets, window wipers and dents on fuel tanks, then a model of a class with 32 members would end up with 150 model variations. I remember the "tippex"-liveried cab windows and windscreen wipers on an NIR 111 - now, personally, that's less of a big deal to me than a yellow NIR logo or shade of blue far too light or dark would be, but that's just me. 

I think we can be glad that so many variations of these things HAVE been done. In my teens, I had a BR "Hymek" class 35 diesel - Hornby got the shade of BR blue right on most models but not that one. I simply repainted it with correct numbers etc and it looked light years better; I did the same with Hornby Mk 1 carriages which weren't technically correct.

I think if any of us can highlight errors in a constructive way - for "educational" purposes - no bad thing. The rest of us have the option of altering them if we see fit, or leaving them.

For me, not just 201s but also 071s are too modern for what I want to do, anyway...... but if anyone ever brings out a RTR MGWR steam loco or another 121 in purple and lime green with tartan buffers, yes, I'll whinge! 

[Galteemore]

Irish modellers demand really high standards to maintain prototypical accuracy. I mean, it’s not like anyone would run them on track that scales out about 4’ gauge… I think we can forgive the manufacturers the odd stray marker lamp….

Edited December 28, 2021 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

10 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Irish modellers demand really high standards to maintain prototypical accuracy. I mean, it’s not like anyone would run them on track that scales out about 4’ gauge… I think we can forgive the manufacturers the odd stray marker lamp….

Very true!!!

[murphaph]

7 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Irish modellers demand really high standards to maintain prototypical accuracy. I mean, it’s not like anyone would run them on track that scales out about 4’ gauge…

It's all very personal alright. I don't care about misplaced sockets (maybe I should but that sort of thing just doesn't bug me) but the wrong track gauge does my head in. I have probably set myself up for a world of hurt but I have to try the 21mm route. But as Jonathon says, rule 1 always applies and the track gauge doesn't bother many people in the slightest and that's fine too I guess. We're a broad church thankfully

[irishthump]

27 minutes ago, murphaph said:

It's all very personal alright. I don't care about misplaced sockets (maybe I should but that sort of thing just doesn't bug me) but the wrong track gauge does my head in. I have probably set myself up for a world of hurt but I have to try the 21mm route. But as Jonathon says, rule 1 always applies and the track gauge doesn't bother many people in the slightest and that's fine too I guess. We're a broad church thankfully

True. I would like to try 21mm, but the amount of extra work it would give me just rules it out. But then again, I'm type of person who  happily runs US and German HO stock alongside the Irish OO gauge. So what would I know?!!!

38 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Irish modellers demand really high standards to maintain prototypical accuracy. I mean, it’s not like anyone would run them on track that scales out about 4’ gauge… I think we can forgive the manufacturers the odd stray marker lamp….

Yes, those same rivet counters will demand every detail be accurate then run all their stock with dirty great tension lock couplers sticking it of them.

[Bob229]

The problem is we have been spoiled with the standard of Irish RTR rolling stock in the last few years from both Murphy Models and IRM, models we could only dream about 15 years ago, we have higher expectations so for some the 201 might not reach those standards or they may not like the 201, but as the last IE diesel loco to be bought by IE it will become popular and for those modelling the current scene the 201 is a must so looking forward to PM new 201 model no doubt the standard will be high 

 

[railfan222]

7 minutes ago, Bob229 said:

The problem is we have been spoiled with the standard of Irish RTR rolling stock in the last few years from both Murphy Models and IRM, models we could only dream about 15 years ago, we have higher expectations so for some the 201 might not reach those standards or they may not like the 201, but as the last IE diesel loco to be bought by IE it will become popular and for those modelling the current scene the 201 is a must so looking forward to PM new 201 model no doubt the standard will be high 

 

It really is nice that Paddy took the decision to release new models of the 201s and MK3s 20 years after Lima produced some.

 

It is a shame that Paddy never released models of the MK4s and De Detrichs to go with the IC (InterCity) and Enterprise 201s. The New IC 201s will essentially be a reskin of the original IC livery with the current Iarnrod Eireann Irish Rail logo and no Iarnrod Eireann wording underneath the cab windows. Aswell as with the new curved LED marker lights.

 

It will be interesting too to see the Mark 3s. For some reason Paddy never seemed to release models by Lima of the Mark 3 composites, CityGolds and EGVs.

 

It is also nice to see Irish Railway Models release models of the Enterprise Mark 2s. I find it hard to imagine that the origins of the NIR Mark 2s were due to the newly formed NIR deciding for new locos and coaches for the relaunch of the Enterprise. Before the NIR 101s and MK2s, there were MPDs and 70 Class DEMUs on the Belfast to Dublin trains.

After the introduction of the new De Detrich coaches in 1997, all NIR MK2s were removed from Enterprise workings. Although a requirement for a new peak 07:50 Portadown-Belfast working meant a brake generator (with Standard Class accommodation) and a few MK2s were kept for use by a 111. I believe that sadly the NIR MK2s were getting badly corroded and so NIR looked for better coaches. In 2000 they were able to acquire 8 former MK2F coaches from Gatwick Express. The availability of NIR being able to acquire the MK2Fs being due to Gatwick Express getting new Class 460s.

The original bogies of the then badly corroding MK2s were reused for the 8 former Gatwick MK2Fs. Only brake generator standard 911 was kept. 911 was rebuilt into a full brake by having the seating removed to make way for 2 generators. The MK2F Gatwicks and generator van were in use from 2002-2005 and from 2006-2009.           

[Ironroad]

4 hours ago, connollystn said:

Have to disagree with you.

Sir, you have been asked in numerous responses to your original posting to be specific, please do so.  There have been at least two posts that are quite explicit as to relatively minor errors and an improvement that could be made and if PM is reading this thread I'm, sure he'll take these observations on board. But overall these were excellent models that captured the essence of the prototype and were very very good value. for money. Traditionally those that sought absolute precision in every aspect of a model at a specific point in time, have been more that happy to customise as may be perceived as being needed, while the vast majority are happy to abide minor  things that are scarcely obvious unless under a microscope and most certainly not obvious when  passing us at scale speed on a layout. The acid test is "does it look the part?" and is it "dimensionally correct?" I for one think it meets that criteria and that seems to be the consensus. I like the observation that points to our tolerance of monstrous TLC couplings - I draw the line at that.

[jhb171achill]

48 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

 

I like the observation that points to our tolerance of monstrous TLC couplings - I draw the line at that.

There's another very valid issue indeed - "monstrous" couplings! I've quite a bit of stock like that and it does affect the appearance big time. I need to get my thinking cap on about replacing the lot.

[WRENNEIRE]

A small detail overlooked by our rivet counting friends
Every detail that is added or subtracted from the original signed off mould incurs a cost and in order to keep the great unwashed happy these costs would make the alterations uneconomical, and like it or not the aim of splashing out €100k+ is to see some sort of return
So maybe ring Paddy, tell him you will pony up for your alterations and sit back and wait, maybe get an extra €50k on the mortgage while you are waiting
And then wait for the criticism, see how you like it
Think before you type!

[johnfromoz]

I revisited my MM 201 fleet today to fit sound into 222.  I fail to see how this is anything less than a top draw model, despite now being many years old.  As a side issue for DCC users, the Soundtraxx Econami 21 pin multi prime mover decoder (set to Class 66) is perfect for this loco and provides a lower cost sound option for a multi loco fleet. Once Function 3 is disabled (as it is a British two tone horn) it is a perfect fit for the 201 and has powerful sound output, more so then my MM ESU sound in 229.   HeadlIghts and cab lighting are all independently controlled on F24-27.  These can be remapped if you wish but doesn’t bother me as I use powercab.   I have not run my fleet of 4 201s for many years, yet all running sweet as a swiss watch.

[DB JOE]

Cracking model. Very Heljan esque like in its manufacture with clip together assembly and its floating centre axel wheel set. Light years ahead of the Lima model. My only gripe with it was the twirling buffers on the first batches which was cured on later ones and the lack of MK4 and De Detrichs rolling stock for them to haul Hopefully IRM will fill that gap

[BEANO3005]

On 29/12/2021 at 2:26 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

A small detail overlooked by our rivet counting friends
Every detail that is added or subtracted from the original signed off mould incurs a cost and in order to keep the great unwashed happy these costs would make the alterations uneconomical, and like it or not the aim of splashing out €100k+ is to see some sort of return
So maybe ring Paddy, tell him you will pony up for your alterations and sit back and wait, maybe get an extra €50k on the mortgage while you are waiting
And then wait for the criticism, see how you like it
Think before you type!

As I have said before, I appreciate what Murphy Models has done for the Irish Model Railway scene. The 141s and 071s are fantastic Models. But little things that were pointed out before the production run started on the 121s were just ignored. To get 129 mostly right, then get 133 with the wrong marker light arrangements, no dayglow is annoying. I did end up buying 10×121s but I didn't get 133. And before you jump down my neck and accuse me of knowing nothing about model railways like you have in the past, I'm just expressing MY opinion.

Yet when I pointed out 2 things that were not right on certain A class locos, they were changed within an hour. 

Happy New Year everyone.

 

[mphoey]

getting this tread back on track its now 2022 with no update yet we know theres delays but not even pre production pics of the mk3s yet the 201s will come alright as mouldings exist but the mk3s are what everyone is waiting on

[meathdane]

 

24 minutes ago, mphoey said:

getting this tread back on track its now 2022 with no update yet we know theres delays but not even pre production pics of the mk3s yet the 201s will come alright as mouldings exist but the mk3s are what everyone is waiting on

Question on this topic actually, did the Mk3s ever see push-pull service with the A class?

 

I know there was an overlap between the coaches and the locomotives, however I'm not sure to what extent. Either way I'll be getting a rake, just depends if I need to start planning the justification of another loco (or two)

[seagoebox]

simply NO !

The A class ( apart from a trial with one loco ) were vacuum braked, the Mark 3 fleet was air braked.

[meathdane]

14 hours ago, seagoebox said:

simply NO !

The A class ( apart from a trial with one loco ) were vacuum braked, the Mark 3 fleet was air braked.

Fair enough! time to start planing the justifications for a couple of 201s then! Thanks for the response!

[murphaph]

Would the 201's being released by MM next have hauled mk3's? (apart from enterprise EGV's)

Are they not all too late livery wise?

I'd keep my powder dry there and wait for the inevitable 071 release. Current demand says they would sell well. I have all the 90's MM ones but I'd buy more if someone was to produce them again.

[hexagon789]

4 hours ago, murphaph said:

Would the 201's being released by MM next have hauled mk3's? (apart from enterprise EGV's)

Are they not all too late livery wise?

I'd keep my powder dry there and wait for the inevitable 071 release. Current demand says they would sell well. I have all the 90's MM ones but I'd buy more if someone was to produce them again.

I understood the current IÉ InterCity livery dated from 2006 (when the Mk4s were introduced) and the Mk2D stock lasted until March 2008, the Mk3s until October 2009 and the latter were certainly hauled by Green/Silver 201s

[murphaph]

I understood the planned batch of 201's only includes the logo shown below on the green & silver model. That logo is much later isn't it? 

Or have I got my wires crossed and there are earlier logos planned in the upcoming release?

[hexagon789]

9 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I understood the planned batch of 201's only includes the logo shown below on the green & silver model. That logo is much later isn't it? 

Or have I got my wires crossed and there are earlier logos planned in the upcoming release?

Oh right, got you now. I thought you meant the base livery.

Yes, the bilingual logo is later - 2012/13 iirc.

[meathdane]

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

Would the 201's being released by MM next have hauled mk3's? (apart from enterprise EGV's)

Are they not all too late livery wise?

I'd keep my powder dry there and wait for the inevitable 071 release. Current demand says they would sell well. I have all the 90's MM ones but I'd buy more if someone was to produce them again.

Either way I'll find a use for them! I've learned from the 071/141/181s, buy Irish stock while its available, otherwise you could be waiting a long time, either way, I'll find a use for them/store them until i can find appropriate stock for them

[hexagon789]

7 minutes ago, meathdane said:

Either way I'll find a use for them! I've learned from the 071/141/181s, buy Irish stock while its available, otherwise you could be waiting a long time, either way, I'll find a use for them/store them until i can find appropriate stock for them

Quite, sometimes you just have to take the plunge or risk missing out entirely or playing the long waiting game with the potential for increase costs as well.

[murphaph]

If you plan to model the era in question at some stage then sure, buy whatever is available when it comes out  

[ttc0169]

6 hours ago, murphaph said:

Would the 201's being released by MM next have hauled mk3's? (apart from enterprise EGV's)

Are they not all too late livery wise?

I'd keep my powder dry there and wait for the inevitable 071 release. Current demand says they would sell well. I have all the 90's MM ones but I'd buy more if someone was to produce them again.

The only Mk3s that were hauled by the newly branded livery was the Belmond when I had 226 on the inaugural run to Killarney back in August 2016 and 231 stepped in when 216 failed a few weeks later seen here in Galway  

 

[Westcorkrailway]

41 minutes ago, ttc0169 said:

The only Mk3s that were hauled by the newly branded livery was the Belmond when I had 226 on the inaugural run to Killarney back in August 2016 and 231 stepped in when 216 failed a few weeks later seen here in Galway  

 

ahh the actual black and silver livery

As a pose to the one in the picture that hattons uses 

[gm171 kk]

Is there any update on the new releases? 

[Westcorkrailway]

13 minutes ago, gm171 kk said:

Is there any update on the new releases? 

I’ds say not, ids say Next time we will get word is when IRM have them in for pre-order 

[DJ Dangerous]

It's probably difficult to get slots in the factories at the moment. I'm sure we'll see tooled samples at one of the shows before anything from the announcement goes on sale.

[WaYSidE]

There's lots of web chat unverfied/unofficial talk of boycotting all countries that support Russian war .
including China and India. that will slow down production
boycott also suggested for Germany and France also if No Fly Zone is not enacted.

we may all have to buy kits from local makers.

[connollystn]

If the Murphy Models 201[new] was bombed it'd improve its appearance, probably.