JM Design rtr GSR/Ranks Bulk Grain and Irish Standard Open Wagons

[Mayner]

JM Design is considering introducing a range of highly detailed 4mm OO gauge  ready to run traditional Irish rolling stock in conjunction with Irish Railway Models.

We focusing mainly on stock introduced between the 1920s and the early 1950s that operated during the steam and through to the early "Supertrain" era.

Our first planned models are the GSR/Ranks Ireland Bulk Grain wagons that were introduced in the mid 30s and remained in service until the end of wagon load grain traffic in the mid 1970s.

Our second planned model is the humble Irish Standard 10T Open Wagon a design that was introduced following WW1 and was built by the GNR(I), GSR & CIE through to the introduction of the corrugated open wagons during the mid 1950s.

The wooden bodied opens were used for general merchandise and bulk traffics such as coal, gypsum and sugar beet and they were even used to carry BR style B & D containers many lasted into the early 1970s.

We are considering producing Ranks Ireland and CIE versions of the grain wagon.

Ranks Red 1948-1963-4

Ranks Grey post 1964

CIE winged wheel

CIE "Broken wheel" with GSR style running number!

Graphics are based on photos of prototype wagons and drawings and information provided by Herbert Richards.

Because of uncertain demand for earlier stock our pricing and planning projections are based on a minimum factory quantity for each type of wagon, its planned to produce the grain wagons as limited edition items.

GSR built standard open 10567

 

GNR "Standard Open.

The open wagon is based on drawings and information provided by Herbert Richards and a GNR(I) wagon diagram.

The spec for both wagons include plastic injection moulded bodies, slimline tension lock couplers in NEM mounts, RP25 110 wheels & 21mm gauge compatible underframes.

Although both wagons share a common chassis tooling the models are expected to retail within a €50-57 price range based on current costings.

If there is sufficient interest to proceed with the project I expect to issue a press release in conjunction with IRM with a potential release of the grain wagons in the later part of 2021 with the opens to follow in 2022.

 

I would appreciate your survey feedback to ascertain the potential level of demand.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5QK5QJM

Edited May 27, 2020 by Mayner

[mphoey]

finally

[Midland Man]

Sounds intresting. Will there be a kit as well as a Rtr?

[Warbonnet]

1 minute ago, Midland Man said:

Sounds intresting. Will there be a kit as well as a Rtr?

RTR only as per below.

5 hours ago, Mayner said:

JM Design is considering introducing a range of highly detailed ready to run traditional Irish rolling stock in conjunction with Irish Railway Models.

 

 

[Georgeconna]

Corr Noel will be jumping in here for these biggo,  Bullseye for his eara. The Grain certainly will add a bit of colour!

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Georgeconna

[DiveController]

OMG! This is fantastic. The grain wagons would be my top choice, all liveries. Very PC there, John @Mayner, with the 'winged wheel'.

What's the time frame for the broken wheel grains?  Did they retain red wheels or just the CAD

10567 is a little beauty. I would need a rake of these. Will there be more running numbers and is the cost per wagon or a set/pair?

Don't worry, I'll do the survey. Great initiative. I hope earlier modelers support this like the original ballasts! 

Edited May 26, 2020 by DiveController

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, DiveController said:

OMG! This is fantastic. The grain wagons would be my top choice, all liveries. Very PC there, John @Mayner, with the 'winged wheel'.

What's the time frame for the broken wheel grains?  Did they retain red wheels or just the CAD

10567 is a little beauty. I would need a rake of these. Will there be more running numbers and is the cost per wagon or a set/pair?

Don't worry, I'll do the survey. Great initiative. I hope earlier modelers support this like the original ballasts! 

I expect to release the grain wagons with 4 livery variations at the same time based on a minimum production run of 1500 wagons, although I have an additional 4 livery variations including Ranks in GSR dark grey & CIE in red oxide with broken wheel emblem including  including up my sleeve if there is sufficient demand.

16404 GSR grey as introduced.

 

16404 CIE with GS grinning through & GSR running numbers.

The wagon bodies were fabricated from a rust resistant steel and they wagons may only have received a single coat of paint or the GSR initials may have only been blanked out with the GS initials grinning through in photos of several wagons.

The Ranks Ireland Wagons wagons were originally introduced in GSR grey, repainted bright read by CIE in the late 40s, finally re-painted in CIE wagon grey from the mid 1960s.

The red wheels, and shading are just to provide some contrast with the 50 shades of grey in the CAD work! 

Wheels are planned to be the standard coated RP 25 wheels used by IRM and other manufacturers, solebars will be the main body colour except for the red wagons which appear to be black!

The estimated price range is based on current costings for a minimum production run of 1500 of each type of wagon with the livery variations in my original posting.

We will proceed with the project if there are indicators of sufficient demand including expressions of interest at this stage and sufficient commitments to purchase at pre-tooling stage.

My current thinking is that the grain wagons may sell singly or in sets of two with different running numbers, open wagons in 2-3 wagon sets with different numbers especially for modelling beet, gypsum, sand and coal trains.

[Noel]

Wow. Interesting initiative.  The flying snail era open wagon really caught my eye. Some grey livery flying snail era (ex-GSR) would also look great on the layout (love the faded GS logo on the CAD image above). 

[Noel]

PS: Was never sure about the compromises needed for future 21mm conversion of RTR models. Most modellers will remain 00 narrow gauge 16.5mm, unfortunately stock can look awful when wheels are far inset away from brake shoes and chassis sides. It's a conundrum. One day I'd love the idea a short 21mm gauge diorama shunting layout for a single converted body GM and a few 2 axle goods wagons. Classic 2 axle stock should sell in volume at the right price point. The open wagons would make nice long rakes as well as in mixed goods formations.

[Wexford70]

Great looking wagons!

Will there be differing numbers available on wagons of the same livery?

[minister_for_hardship]

The red would be a great relief from all the dull greys and browns.

[Midland Man]

The grain wagons are realy innovated. As for the open wagons although there is the SSM kit it will be intresting to sea a Rtr version. Will look well with a a class pulling it. The lovely thing about the grain wagons is that you only need about 3 as they were used in sidings on lines that lost the goods service in about 1947.

IRM and JM design keeping us happy in this weird time.

[Galteemore]

Great to see. There are some lovely red ones displayed at Cultra, scratch built by Drew Donaldson (in 7mm scale) many years ago. These will be something special and add a bit of authentic colour to some 50s freights ! 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Galteemore

[scahalane]

Did the grain wagons run in Cork or were they specific to certain lines. They look a fab wagon.

[Noel]

This is good news, pricing will be a factor. Bare in mind IRM's Tara wagons were €40 each and they were large bogie wagons with the added cost of large detailed bodies, kinematic coupling bars, bogies, four sets of wheels, etc, and the fertiliser wagons were €50 each. Will watch with interest. Like the idea of the ranks.

[Ironroad]

Excellent news; and hope there is sufficient interest to make this a reality.

16 hours ago, DiveController said:

OMG! This is fantastic. The grain wagons would be my top choice, all liveries. Very PC there, John @Mayner, with the 'winged wheel'.

What's the time frame for the broken wheel grains?  Did they retain red wheels or just the CAD10567 is a little beauty. I would need a rake of these. Will there be more running numbers and is the cost per wagon or a set/pair?

 

Indeed 'Winged or Flying Wheel" is the proper description of the logo,  although while CIE should have known better and the later logo probably deserves the description of "broken wheel" it should really be referred to as the "Roundel".

[Midland Man]

Just now, scahalane said:

Did the grain wagons run in Cork or were they specific to certain lines. They look a fab wagon.

The wagons were use ingrain siding on GSR lines. I am prity sure there was a grain siding (or just some random private siding)  in cork whitch was operated by number 90 and never ended up into deisel days. Clara had a siding.

Was there ever a entire rake of wagons or were they only used on mixed traffic?

[leslie10646]

5 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Great to see. There are some lovely red ones displayed at Cultra, scratch built by Drew Donaldson (in 7mm scale) many years ago. These will be something special and add a bit of authentic colour to some 50s freights ! 

 

Ah, David, the air was Electric Blue in Drew's workshop when he was building the Ranks wagon - that probably persuaded me NOT to get Michael to do one of these as a kit after the Spoil wagon (which is probably harder to model.

John's news is terrific and I've just spent a theoretical £500 or so on Survey Monkey. All I have to do is live long enough - I'll be 75 when the Opens appear, if God grants.

22 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Corr Noel will be jumping in here for thee biggo, The Grain certainly will add a bit of colour!

 

Now, now, George - Noel, like me, likes running his trains, but if he wants a wagon enough, he puts a lot of skill into building (my) kits - see his Workbench.

Of course the price is high, sorry, chaps (and chapesses?)  but if you're modelling 1950s/60s, you are in a minority within what is already a minority (but growing thanks to The Lads) modelling the railways of a Small Island.

Good luck with the project, John.

Edited May 27, 2020 by leslie10646

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Midland Man said:

Was there ever a entire rake of wagons or were they only used on mixed traffic?

In the times these things ran, there was rarely an entire rake of anything at all! Several of these would be in a goods train going to wherever they were being loaded or unloaded, but not for this type of wagon would you get a whole rake - thus - an ideal buy to mix in with other stuff.

[K801]

Beautiful looking and I'd take a few but prefer to purchase something more modern like a beet wagon

[Georgeconna]

A nice Super Steamer now would be lovely from the Lads in Green.  Is the Movement is starting Finally!

 

 

 

[Old Blarney]

John,

I have sent you a Private Message.

Old Blarney.

[chris]

I commend you for doing this and they look really nice and I honestly hope it works out!!

Personally they're not a key interest area for me and being outside that combined with the price (which I totally understand for a limited run of very high quality product) I'm afraid I couldn't justify the spend given there are so many other up coming items I have a more direct interest in. Maybe if the interest is there for larger runs and the pricing comes down somewhat I could go for the CIE 10T opens as they are of minor interest.

Best of luck with this project, done the survey to try and reflect how I feel above, saying I would have a degree of interest in the 10t, hopefully it helps a bit at least.

[TimO]

This is a fabulous development and I look forward to placing orders for both types of wagon. In relation to the grain wagons:

1. Do you know how many of these wagons existed and were they all built at the same time or were they built in a number of lots?

2. Ranks Ireland had flour mills at North City Mills, Phibsboro; Clara, Co Offaly; Limerick and Cork. I presume these wagons were used to bring imported wheat from either Limerick or Cork docks to the other mills for milling into flour. Do you know if all these locations were rail served? 

3. Were the grain wagons loaded anywhere else?

4. Were the CIE liveried grain wagons used for the same traffic?

5. Were the grain wagons used for transporting other types of grain such as barley for animal feed production?

I have filled in the survey.

[Ironroad]

There appears to be  no reference to this proposed joint venture on the IRM web site. May I suggest that it might be a good idea to do and also provide the link to the survey on that site

. 

[Garfield]

4 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

There appears to be  no reference to this proposed joint venture on the IRM web site. May I suggest that it might be a good idea to do and also provide the link to the survey on that site

. 

Hi Ironroad,

That's because this product is being developed independently by Mayner; IRM's involvement in this project is purely to facilitate development and manufacture of the product on behalf of JM Design.

Hope that clarifies things. 

Personally speaking, I think this is a brave and exciting move into uncharted territory for Irish RTR by JM, and I look forward to buying some of these wagons for my own use in due course.   

 

[patrick]

Nice footage here of the Ardee branch in 1975 showing bulk grain wagons. At 1:57 a grey one can be seen still sporting the Ranks lettering.

Edited May 28, 2020 by patrick

[Galteemore]

Very nice. And a lovely shot of the GNR MAK diesel too...

[Midland Man]

Realy good shots on the video. The GNR MAK is always nice to What year was withdrawn I am guessing before 1975?

[Ironroad]

4 hours ago, Garfield said:

Hi Ironroad,

That's because this product is being developed independently by Mayner; IRM's involvement in this project is purely to facilitate development and manufacture of the product on behalf of JM Design.

Hope that clarifies things. 

Personally speaking, I think this is a brave and exciting move into uncharted territory for Irish RTR by JM, and I look forward to buying some of these wagons for my own use in due course.   

 

Absolutely very brave and I also look forward to buying some of these wagons.  My sentiment was to have this news broadcast as widely as possible.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, Midland Man said:

Realy good shots on the video. The GNR MAK is always nice to What year was withdrawn I am guessing before 1975?

Yes, it hadn't worked much since the 1960s, in fact. I think its last very short lived fling was about 1972. Someone here will confirm exact details, I'm sure!

[Ironroad]

6 hours ago, TimO said:

This is a fabulous development and I look forward to placing orders for both types of wagon. In relation to the grain wagons:

1. Do you know how many of these wagons existed and were they all built at the same time or were they built in a number of lots?

2. Ranks Ireland had flour mills at North City Mills, Phibsboro; Clara, Co Offaly; Limerick and Cork. I presume these wagons were used to bring imported wheat from either Limerick or Cork docks to the other mills for milling into flour. Do you know if all these locations were rail served? 

3. Were the grain wagons loaded anywhere else?

4. Were the CIE liveried grain wagons used for the same traffic?

5. Were the grain wagons used for transporting other types of grain such as barley for animal feed production?

I have filled in the survey.

I cannot provide a complete answer but can cay that the Nth City Mills was served by a siding up until the early 1970’s. The track layout can be seen on Geo Hive http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html. (select the historic map 1888 -1913 and zoom into the Phibsborough area). The siding branched off the  MGWR line on the north side of the Royal Canal immediately after that line crosses from the south to the north side of the canal at the 7^th lock  but since the Mills are on the south side of the Royal Canal this siding crossed back across the canal just below the 6^th lock. The supporting stone walls of this bridge still exist. There were a couple of loops on this siding. Logically it would seem that wagons serving the mills  were probably shunted between there and the Midland yard at Nth Wall for marshalling.

[jhb171achill]

These wagons appear to have always been owned by the GSR and then CIE.

There's an important distinction here. We often hear of references to "private owner wagons"; which are exactly as it says on the tin. But these were exceptionally rare in Ireland. usually, the local railway company simply supplied the relevant rolling stock - but sometimes with the name of the customer on them. This was as much to inform railway staff that the relevant vehicle was not to be used for any other traffic, than to advertise.

In answer to Ironroad's question above, I believe that CIE-branded ones were "mixed up" with "Ranks" ones; I am fairly certain I have seen photographic evidence of this. But because Ranks didn't own them - the railway did - at times they just got the railway livery.

I was interested to see variations on the location of the "snail" on the artwork John has produced above, so a train could have a mixture of red Ranks, grey Ranks, and grey snail-variations in the same train (so we each buy one of each!).

Now, I also believe I've seen a pic of one in post-1970 CIE brown livery; any confirmation of this would be of interest. But it would have been short-lived, as I think these wagons were done with by 1975 or so. Naturally, a brown wagon would only have a "roundel", as the "snails" were replaced almost ten years before anything was ever painted brown.

Oh - an addendum: the "curse of the black chassis" can be lifted with the RED variation of these things: obviously, all grey means grey chassis also, if one wants accuracy, but the red ones had black chassis - or most anyway; I have no evidence of any being turned out all-red (which would look somewhat odd anyway!).

[patrick]

Any idea when the red livery dissapead?

[jhb171achill]

10 minutes ago, patrick said:

Any idea when the red livery dissapead?

I don't know for certain, but I suspect before steam ended, as the only pictures I've ever seen of these things after 1960 are in grey. At a very wild guess I would be inclined to say GSR all-grey up to late 1940s, then red with "Ranks", then maybe grey with "Ranks" in the mid to late 1950s - and then grey with the various "snail" variations until the mid 60s, when "roundels" replace the "snails". It is possible that red with "Ranks" and grey with the same were concurrent, or that the grey came before AND after the red. 

It would be useful if anyone could throw any more light on this. As mentioned earlier, I'm sure I saw a pic of one in post-1970 brown too, and as others have pointed out, the odd badly faded grey wagon with "Ranks" was still to be seen just after 1970.