Irish Royalty - Park Royal Coach Next For IRM

[Colin R]

Something I should has asked before ordering but any of you guys know if the park royals will gauge out to 21mm?

Edited May 4, 2023 by Colin R

[murphaph]

18 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Something I should has asked before ordering but any of you guys know if the park royals will gauge out to 21mm?

Yep.

[Galteemore]

• Accurate CIÉ Commonwealth bogies, with separate detailing where appropriate, that allows for the option of re-gauging to Irish Broad Gauge (21mm).
• Brake blocks aligned with wheels, allowing for the option of moving outwards for Irish Broad Gauge.

[Colin R]

15 hours ago, Galteemore said:

 

• Accurate CIÉ Commonwealth bogies, with separate detailing where appropriate, that allows for the option of re-gauging to Irish Broad Gauge (21mm).
• Brake blocks aligned with wheels, allowing for the option of moving outwards for Irish Broad Gauge.

Thanks guys, the next question to ask is I wonder it the bogies will become a separate items at some stage

[BosKonay]

31 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Thanks guys, the next question to ask is I wonder it the bogies will become a separate items at some stage

"Eventually" but the priority is to release lots of stunning models running on them first.

[leslie10646]

Never mind the coaches - WHEN do we hear what your IRISH STEAM ENGINE is going to be?

 

[Westcorkrailway]

 

 

 

 

 

When growing up. My nostalgia for railways came from Park Royal’s too. Although probobly not the same as the rest of you guys who actually got to use them in service 

 

in 1994, 2 Park Royal’s landed at west cork model village. They were subsequently painted in green and paired with CSE mallow number 1 or 2 Ruston locomotive (I can’t remember) which came from the GSRPS at fenit. It’s sister from halfway Co.cork with a bullied wagon, CIE brake and WLWR coach. 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Westcorkrailway

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

in 1994, 2 Park Royal’s landed at west cork model village. They were subsequently painted in green and paired with CSE mallow number 1 or 2 Ruston locomotive (I can’t remember) which came from the GSRPS at fenit. It’s sister from halfway Co.cork with a bullied wagon, CIE brake and WLWR coach.

 

Do you think they'd notice if somebody lifted them back out one night and dropped them to Maam Cross?

[Westcorkrailway]

36 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Do you think they'd notice if somebody lifted them back out one night and dropped them to Maam Cross?

As far as I know there in the market for buying, not selling  

Edited May 5, 2023 by Westcorkrailway

[Broithe]

37 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Do you think they'd notice if somebody lifted them back out one night and dropped them to Maam Cross?

We need someone with experience to direct the operation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/222883.stm

[DJ Dangerous]

22 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

As far as I know there in the market for buying, not selling  

 

LOL, who mentioned paying for them???

 

21 minutes ago, Broithe said:

We need someone with experience to direct the operation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/222883.stm

 

Excellent. Should be roaming free by now. Hopefully available for some freelance work.

[BosKonay]

5 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Never mind the coaches - WHEN do we hear what your IRISH STEAM ENGINE is going to be?

 

October. 

[DJ Dangerous]

32 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

October. 

 

Could you SHOUT THAT A BIT LOUDER, please?

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by DJ Dangerous

[Colin R]

55 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

 

 

 October  

But which one? Seriously I hope it is something which there where many of in the class and with a few tweaks you could produce a few variations on a theme hopefully it might be any one of the following :-

Great Southern & Western Railway Class 101 or GSR Class J15

Or others could be the U2 or the W or WT NCC locos the W and WT i think have many common parts

From the GNR(I) you could have SG, SG2 or the SG3 again some parts are interchangeable

From South of the boarder you could have the classes 372 and 393 both 2-6-0 ex-Woolwich SR designs now this could fit in with a new accurascale model if they ever decide to make one, the only thing is I think the running boards may need to be wider for the Irish versions of these locos.

Then of course everyone will want a class 800 wont they?

The biggest problem I see for anyone making a Irish steam loco RTR model is the numbers in each prototype class.

[DJ Dangerous]

8 minutes ago, Colin R said:

Then of course everyone will want a class 800 wont they?

 

GSR 800 FTW!

[John-r]

Ncc  jeeps, please.

[Branchline121]

4 hours ago, Colin R said:

 October  

But which one? Seriously I hope it is something which there where many of in the class and with a few tweaks you could produce a few variations on a theme hopefully it might be any one of the following :-

Great Southern & Western Railway Class 101 or GSR Class J15

Or others could be the U2 or the W or WT NCC locos the W and WT i think have many common parts

From the GNR(I) you could have SG, SG2 or the SG3 again some parts are interchangeable

From South of the boarder you could have the classes 372 and 393 both 2-6-0 ex-Woolwich SR designs now this could fit in with a new accurascale model if they ever decide to make one, the only thing is I think the running boards may need to be wider for the Irish versions of these locos.

Then of course everyone will want a class 800 wont they?

The biggest problem I see for anyone making an Irish steam loco RTR model is the numbers in each prototype class.

You forgot the J26!

[Mayner]

7 hours ago, Colin R said:

 October  

But which one? Seriously I hope it is something which there where many of in the class and with a few tweaks you could produce a few variations on a theme hopefully it might be any one of the following :-

Great Southern & Western Railway Class 101 or GSR Class J15

Or others could be the U2 or the W or WT NCC locos the W and WT i think have many common parts

From the GNR(I) you could have SG, SG2 or the SG3 again some parts are interchangeable

From South of the boarder you could have the classes 372 and 393 both 2-6-0 ex-Woolwich SR designs now this could fit in with a new accurascale model if they ever decide to make one, the only thing is I think the running boards may need to be wider for the Irish versions of these locos.

Then of course everyone will want a class 800 wont they?

The biggest problem I see for anyone making a Irish steam loco RTR model is the numbers in each prototype class.

While its a nice idea its difficult to envisage a manufacturer producing a wide range of rtr Irish steam locos even where there are common parts between classes, factors include limited demand and price point.

The majority of models produced by IRM and MM are focused on the 70s-90s era, reflect the railways experienced by modellers in their 30-50 (largest group and greatest purchasing power) during their formative years, with a very small demographic group in their late 60s onwards having memories of steam in every day service.

Although Chinese factories will produce a minimum run of 1000 plastic injection rtr locos or items of locos or rolling stock a contract manufacture would need to sell a minimum of around 3 times that amount at the current British/Irish price point for a similar rtr model. I think the Managing Director of Accurascale (Stephen) spoke about min. sales projected sales of 4000 before producing a loco.

A number of Chinese and Korean manufacturers produced rtr metal (brass and nickel silver) models of locos and stock with a limited production run of 500 models which would need to sell at a price point 4-5 time that of an equivalent plastic injection rtr model.

Several years ago I looked at commissioning a rtr Irish OO Gauge steam loco direct from a Chinese manufacturer, I would have needed to sell 500 locos with a €5-600 price range to make a profit. Although original pricing was based on a Midland Cattle loco, I would probably produced a GNR S or Compound had sales projections stacked up.

OO Works have managed to sell approx. 100 of their Irish locos produced to date about twice the price point of a similar plastic injection loco, though I understand that the UG 0-6-0 which followed their first Irish loco the U 4-4-0 was slow to sell.

[DiveController]

9 hours ago, BosKonay said:

October. 

Which October?

[Barl]

20 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

 

 

 

 

 

When growing up. My nostalgia for railways came from Park Royal’s too. Although probobly not the same as the rest of you guys who actually got to use them in service 

 

in 1994, 2 Park Royal’s landed at west cork model village. They were subsequently painted in green and paired with CSE mallow number 1 or 2 Ruston locomotive (I can’t remember) which came from the GSRPS at fenit. It’s sister from halfway Co.cork with a bullied wagon, CIE brake and WLWR coach. 

 

We were only there on Monday funnily enough, had a good look at the coaches given the announcement the day before! 

[Horsetan]

14 hours ago, Colin R said:

 October  

But which one?

.....you could have the classes 372 and 393 both 2-6-0 ex-Woolwich SR designs now this could fit in with a new accurascale model if they ever decide to make one, the only thing is I think the running boards may need to be wider for the Irish versions of these locos....

There's a couple of differences between the 372s and 393s. Whilst the wheelbases are shared at 7'3" x 8'3", plus the wider overall width compared to the Southern Railway Ns and Us, there's also:

- 372s: 5ft 6in drivers; 393s: 6ft drivers

393s had a deeper drop in the footplate in order to maintain the same buffer centre heights as the 372s, plus small splashers over the topsof the drivers.

[Colin R]

Well the first bit of the rolling stock turned up to day and it is a Bachmann BR Mk1 BG coach in green, I know its not quite right, but at least it will keep the Park Royals company for now. Just got to figure out a way to install 21mm gauge wheelsets.  

I think there has been an article on how to convert one of these to it Irish sister.

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Colin R

[leslie10646]

18 hours ago, Mayner said:

OO Works have managed to sell approx. 100 of their Irish locos produced to date about twice the price point of a similar plastic injection loco, though I understand that the UG 0-6-0 which followed their first Irish loco the U 4-4-0 was slow to sell.

Actually, John, this is why I asked. 00 Works next Irish loco is another version of the J15.

This class meets all the typical IRM criteria - lots of them, many variants (and to some extent liveries), but on the same chassis. While Roderick's little locos are pretty good (I've got five of them), I don't think they'd match a "Full Fat" IRM one.

Hence my quandary is, do I order a Z  boiler / large tender J15 to go with my two 4'4" boiler, small tender locos? Knowing that a J15 is a pretty logical steam loco for them to do?

Part of me says, you're 77 in four weeks, Roderick will give you the engine this year and give you another year's (or maybe more) running it! Of course, there's the other issue that J15s never got to Portadown!

John, your other point on the low sales of the Class UG (and the U Class) was due to the perceived high price. I wish I'd bought a dozen Us / UGs then, I could have sold them at a decent profit - much better than current interest rates!

[Westcorkrailway]

12 hours ago, Barl said:

We were only there on Monday funnily enough, had a good look at the coaches given the announcement the day before! 

Livery isint too bad either. 1 green stripe and detail from being accurate…maybe a few shades lighter here and darker there.

 

I might take the bus down there during the week. I hear from one of there curators they have gotten some locomotive and coaching stock upgrades since  

 

[jhb171achill]

45 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Livery isint too bad either. 1 green stripe and detail from being accurate…maybe a few shades lighter here and darker there.

Two green stripes wrong, in fact - the waistline one and the top one! The middle one - which IS accurate, should continue across the doors too......

The colours are correct for the older green livery. However, while there is a black and white photo in existence that appears to show the dark coliur, and with an upper green band, that was certainly not the case for the vast majority, which started their lives silver, with the lighter green livery later - or else were the lighter green when new.

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Darrman]

Pre-ordered two of the green ones the other day: be nice to have them in a model West Cork at some point. I could take them down to the Model Village for a few photos too: I do live very close to it.

Being the West Cork man I am, a Bandon tank would be my steam of choice. In more practical terms I think a preserved steam engine would be sensible.

[Westcorkrailway]

45 minutes ago, Darrman said:

Pre-ordered two of the green ones the other day: be nice to have them in a model West Cork at some point. I could take them down to the Model Village for a few photos too: I do live very close to it.

Being the West Cork man I am, a Bandon tank would be my steam of choice. In more practical terms I think a preserved steam engine would be sensible.

Hear that @BosKonay that’s 2 bandon tanks sold!!!

 

no I don’t think we can expect a RTR bandon, unless 00 works do one…in the next 20-30 years. Luckily should have the time to do the crime if everything goes well

 

As for the model village.well now you can have a Hornby Ruston 88ds run around a ring with 2 Park Royal’s….a model village train!

[Colin R]

11 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Hear that @BosKonay that’s 2 bandon tanks sold!!!

 

no I don’t think we can expect a RTR bandon, unless 00 works do one…in the next 20-30 years. Luckily should have the time to do the crime if everything goes well

 

As for the model village.well now you can have a Hornby Ruston 88ds run around a ring with 2 Park Royal’s….a model village train!

Bandon tanks er? well SSM do an etched kit, or I wonder if anyone makes a 3D print of them the problem with that is then fining a chassis for the body, they are no doubt a fine looking loco, but I don't think I could do with just one, plus I do wonder how I can justify them running into Downpatrick except for some sort of religious festival of which I am not aware of.   

Edited May 7, 2023 by Colin R

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

Bandon tanks er? well SSM do an etched kit, or I wonder if anyone makes a 3D print of them the problem with that is then fining a chassis for the body, they are no doubt a fine looking loco, but I don't think I could do with just one, plus I do wonder how I can justify them running into Downpatrick except for some sort of religious festival of which I am not aware of.   

Well the bandons were simular enough to the BCDR tanks perhaps a bandon in BCDR livery would look right 

[Niles]

On 6/5/2023 at 10:24 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Livery isint too bad either. 1 green stripe and detail from being accurate…maybe a few shades lighter here and darker there.

 

I might take the bus down there during the week. I hear from one of there curators they have gotten some locomotive and coaching stock upgrades since  

 

A few of the early ones indeed seem to have got the dark green and eau de nil. Most photos I've seen show single stripe but have come across one which shows a second stripe above the windows too. Some of us put several late hours researching this for the Park Royal at Downpatrick, was not good for the OCD.  Should we go with one stripe or two etc.

You can actually see one of the single stripe dark green ones on the cover of Chris Larkin's West Cork book. 

[Niles]

1944 in the early green at Downpatrick. And yes, I know that technically it wouldn't have carried this livery as a brake conversion or with the plated over windows but it's actually one of the very early ones (originally numbered 1381, so the 3rd in the batch) so quite likely would have been one of the ones to carry it.

Given the RPSI ones generally carried the lighter green it's something different anyway.

[Westcorkrailway]

16 minutes ago, Niles said:

A few of the early ones indeed seem to have got the dark green and eau de nil. Most photos I've seen show single stripe but have come across one which shows a second stripe above the windows too. Some of us put several late hours researching this for the Park Royal at Downpatrick, was not good for the OCD.  Should we go with one stripe or two etc.

You can actually see one of the single stripe dark green ones on the cover of Chris Larkin's West Cork book. 

What I’ve uncovered in my time looking at the west cork AEC railcar sets is that there was always something in a different livery. In one of those “green Irish railway dvds” i don’t know the name. An AEC railcar comes through drimoleague but instead it’s the AEC railcar in dark green and the intermediate Park Royal  in light green

 

infairness in those days @Niles there was a good bit of experimenting and one offs. West cork even had its own regional livery of unlined dark green. Or C class which supposedly got flying snail transfers applied to them. It’s not out of the question that something like that happened 

[Mike 84C]

Whestys SSM Bandon tank makes up into a very nice loco, is not a hard kit to build and it would be a shame if his sales dived because a ready to run version is brought out. I wonder how many J15 kits he has sold since 00 works delivered their J15? And I stick my hand up to owning an 00 works one.  I still think the D&SER 2-6-0 is the one for a manufacturer to go for as its a visible loco that would be at home on many/all the layouts featured on this group.  For me the interest in Irish Railways is building and adapting models to fit the Irish scene; but that's just me sayin!

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

What I’ve uncovered in my time looking at the west cork AEC railcar sets is that there was always something in a different livery. In one of those “green Irish railway dvds” i don’t know the name. An AEC railcar comes through drimoleague but instead it’s the AEC railcar in dark green and the intermediate Park Royal  in light green

 

infairness in those days @Niles there was a good bit of experimenting and one offs. West cork even had its own regional livery of unlined dark green. Or C class which supposedly got flying snail transfers applied to them. It’s not out of the question that something like that happened 

The idea that there was a fair bit of experimenting in colours isn't actually correct; aged weathering, and the same paint in some cases on timber, others on sheet board, and others on metal surfaces, gave that impression.

As you say, though, on the West Cork system there were some vehicles painted in a sort of "secondary stock" paint scheme. This was the standard dark green, still used on station buildings, road vahicles and buses until 1963; but without any lining. In some cases no snails either. While it was indeed to be seen in West Cork, it was also seen on the Cavan & Leitrim (the "bus-coach") and even more so the West Clare, where by the end every vehicle on that line was variously in the standard light green or the standard dark - in neither case with any lining at all, and few with "snails".

Some secondary wooden bogies and a few six-wheelers got the unlined "secondary" dark green too, on the main system.

I'm unaware of any diesel other than "A"s ever getting a snail; if anyone finds a pic of a "C" thus adorned I'd be interested to see it. Just about every model "G" seems to have a snail; in reality not one ever did.

You're right about the railcars. They were introduced before the lighter green ever appeared, so would have had the dark colour, but from the outset only had the thin waistline lining, not the full version. After '55, they were gradually repainted the lighter green. One at least - and this was a one-off - had UTA-style yellow and black stripes, but on the front of the roof, rather than below the cab windows as the UTA would have a few years later. And this railcar certainly worked in West Cork.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Horsetan]

15 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Whestys SSM Bandon tank makes up into a very nice loco, is not a hard kit to build and it would be a shame if his sales dived because a ready to run version is brought out. I wonder how many J15 kits he has sold since 00 works delivered their J15? ...

He'll likely sell one J15 kit to me because I want to try @Mayner's Z boiler conversion kit