Mk 2 Supertrain Coaches

[Warbonnet]

Top job Richie. I saw a rake of them running last night. In all honesty the orange/tan/whatever looks much better in the flesh. I would implore anyone to have a look at them in their hand before deciding against them. Weathering as Glenderg has shown will make them even better.

[jhb171achill]

Absolutely superb stuff, Glenderg. I like your weathering.

 

You're right - the "pre-Tippex" and "post-Tippex" orange shades were exactly the same, not least due to the fact that most were not initially repainted: the "tippex" was just added!

 

The brighter shade had started appearing on new Mk 3s and by 1990 (three years after the white lines started) was becoming universal. Remaining Park Royals and Cravens always retained the older shade. As I said before, it wasn't a huge difference, and with weathering was more or less the same.

 

Your locos and coaches above are spot on.

Edited January 29, 2015 by jhb171achill

[ttc0169]

Spot on Richie....the slight weathering really does make a difference...nice one.

[Dhu Varren]

As an impartial observer on this debate, as I have no interest in the Supertrain livery as such, it came to my attention, something I had never noticed before, that the Irish AC stock which has always been referred to as Mk2d, by railway publications and enthusiasts alike, is not that at all. The AC stock has, in fact, more in common with the BR Mk2f than the Mk2d.

Apart from the suspect shade of orange, MM at least have got the physical side of things right, albeit the height of the windows open to question.

 

All Mk2d coach bodies have both toilet windows on the same side. The Mk2f coach has toilet windows on opposite corners, except for the 1st class coach which has them both on the same side, as per the Mk2d.

 

The air conditioning fitted to Irish coaches is the same as that fitted to the BR Mk2f, and can be easily identified by the single large fan unit on the underframe. The Mk2d and Mk2e coaches have a different system, which employs a twin fan unit.

 

The Irish AC stock has all the Mk2f features, the standard class and composite coaches have toilet windows on opposite corners, and all types have the large single fan unit underneath.

[flange lubricator]

Spot on Dhu Varren The CiE Mk2d's are more a Mk2f fittied with the better Temp control Ltd air conditioning system (better than on the BR Mk2d's)and the toilets are the same as the Mk2e's.

[Weshty]

Top class posting Richie, worthy of stickiness. The weathering has shown the superb detail on these bad boys. And to be frank, they need to be weathered, who ever remembers them clean? I also love the fact that they are so easily disassembled, particularly if you want to super-detail the interior (seats an appropriate brown and olive drab). Oh those vibrant '70s colour pallets eh?

 

Mr. Murphy has excelled again.

[Tarabuses]

Top class posting Richie, worthy of stickiness. The weathering has shown the superb detail on these bad boys. And to be frank, they need to be weathered, who ever remembers them clean? I also love the fact that they are so easily disassembled, particularly if you want to super-detail the interior (seats an appropriate brown and olive drab). Oh those vibrant '70s colour pallets eh?

 

Mr. Murphy has excelled again.

 

I never doubted him.

[murrayec]

 

In summation, these are very fine coaches, that need a bit of tlc to get right, but don't you have to put on buffer beam detailing with locos and such? So if you can handle buffer beam detailing, you can handle a pen/lining pen/rotring pen, right? Paddy Murphy Esq did not spray the black band on them, so give him a break. Some clown on the far side of the planet screwed up, but that's no reason not to invest in them. Personally, I'll be buying all eight when I can, and weathering them as above. They just shout Miners Strike, Three Day Weeks, and "Don't be a TV sponger" to me.

 

The defence rests, M'lud.

 

If I may M'Lud, I concur with my learned fellow and commend and support his issue of such a fine recipe... M'Lud.....

 

Eoin

[RedRich]

As an impartial observer on this debate, as I have no interest in the Supertrain livery as such, it came to my attention, something I had never noticed before, that the Irish AC stock which has always been referred to as Mk2d, by railway publications and enthusiasts alike, is not that at all. The AC stock has, in fact, more in common with the BR Mk2f than the Mk2d.

Apart from the suspect shade of orange, MM at least have got the physical side of things right, albeit the height of the windows open to question.

 

All Mk2d coach bodies have both toilet windows on the same side. The Mk2f coach has toilet windows on opposite corners, except for the 1st class coach which has them both on the same side, as per the Mk2d.

 

The air conditioning fitted to Irish coaches is the same as that fitted to the BR Mk2f, and can be easily identified by the single large fan unit on the underframe. The Mk2d and Mk2e coaches have a different system, which employs a twin fan unit.

 

The Irish AC stock has all the Mk2f features, the standard class and composite coaches have toilet windows on opposite corners, and all types have the large single fan unit underneath.

 

I agree with the above that our MK11's are more akin to the BR MK11e-f coaches. There are smaller single fan units on the BSO MK11e's and the box housing the fan is smaller than ours. Also worth mentioning is the fact that the roof hatches on a MK11f are bigger than the MK11c-d-e coaches. One standout feature of the MM coaches is the underframe of the EGV, it looks stunning. As for the windows you have to live with it, and I can.

 

Rich,

[RedRich]

What Richie has done with the out of the box model has made a big improvement. It's the enjoyable part of the hobby to be able to add your own touches to a model. The man knows what I think of his work, so enough said.

 

Rich,

[Ben]

Just received my CIE super train order, all eight of them.

 

I would like to thank Paddy Murphy for a job well done i Know that a lot of hard work and time has gone into these.

 

These are to a high standard with good detail and the correct livery for the 1972 super train. It is great to see that Murphy's models has Continued to produce these models,. given such a small market interest. For years Others have not touched this market due to the small size . E.g. Hornby etc.

 

When others have by direct or on behalf of a second party ,produced something it has been a class 33 in cie livery or mk3 British rail stock in cie and the later Irish rail Livery . To simplify this of the shelf stock. I hope that Murphy's Models will continue well into the future . So it is important to support this. Due to tooling costs some modern modifications to the super train coaches have to stay and this is fact of the modelling industry .Hornby etc. do it.

 

If we where to go down the road of retooling the coaches as the original of 1972, the cost would be much greater and too expensive.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Garfield
Edited to remove unnecessary text formatting

[flange lubricator]

Not wanting to be the dissenting voice and spoil the party I would like to get a certain sense of perspective with this issue , I make my comments as a ‘Customer’ not as one of the usual knockers as some would put it , am I the first contributor to use the word ‘customer’ in fifteen pages of this thread??.

I do to date have two MM Mk2a’s, nine B(GM’s) loco’s, eleven MM Craven’s , three 071 class locos and soon to have seven MM Mk2d’s I think this qualifies me as a ‘customer’. I have no issue with the price of these coaches if I get what I pay for, the price point of these models is at the premium end of the scale when compared to other Mk2’s (Bachmann, Hornby, etc) these are the most expensive BR Mk2’s to date so I would assume they would be premium quality and finish unfortunately they are not . I have seen them in the flesh. The colour is one issue , some small detail issues but the not straight black line and overspray on €56 coaches is simply poor , the supertrain livery is the easiest to reproduce a simple black line down the middle . We seem to have a ‘ah it will do’ or ‘they will be grand’ or maybe ‘ aren’t we lucky for what we get’ attitude to all this .

Some would say well weather them or drop them into your local respray agent , but these are high end RTR models you should not have to do that , if you pay premium money for a BMW or Audi car you don’t drop it into the bodyshop on your way home to ‘fix it up’. In 2006 with the Mk2a’s and later with the Cravens the finish was excellent above average, a difficult livery in the case of the Mk2a,but the finish is what you would expect of a premium model. I like many am able to touch up or respray these coaches easy enough, but spare a thought for those who can’t.

With the Mk2d supertrain coach the price has increased and the standard has slipped, if these coaches fail to sell as someone has said in a previous post even be returned that is not good for PM , the retailers or the end users and the hobby. Some may say ‘pony up or shut’ up well I have ponied up and will continue to do so to support our Irish retailers and enterprising people like PM, but like all manufactures and retailers they must listen to their customers too.

Edited January 29, 2015 by flange lubricator

[iarnrod]

Fully agree with flange lubricator.

 

As consumers, we are paying a top drawer price for what should be a top drawer product. Unfortunately, in this case, the finish is far from top drawer.

 

An RTR model should be one that you should be able to take it from the box and use it without having to make any modifications or adjustments, no matter who the manufacturer is, but especially so with these prices per unit.

[WRENNEIRE]

Whereas I agree fully with the last 2 posts and in particular Flange's one I also must feel for Murphy himself

The work that went into this production is not adequately reflected in the product that was received

Can anyone here imagine that MM signed off on these coaches after seeing and handling his previous efforts?

One thought that strikes me is that somewhere along the line something has changed, be it the management of workers in the factory

The foreman or whatever on the production line is the man to blame, he obviously saw the product as it left the line and passed it fit for purpose

The first we see is when they arrive here after their journey from China and there is nothing to be done,

they cant be sent back and they have been paid for up front,

Obviously they can be sorted as Glenderg has shown but how do I ask for another €10 or so to have what should be a top model "fixed" ?

Personally I an happy with them and several have gone into my collection

However my main worry is that may affect MM's relationship with his manufacturer in China and therefore will it

ultimately affect the production of the 121's and A's?

[burnthebox]

I too fully agree with flange lubricator, & as I said before I won't be beating any path to PM 's as has been said on here at €56 a pop for what is supposed to be rtr out of the box, but not in this case, not before you go to your local paint shop for a respray, or weathering, after all is it Orange, Gold, or even Mustard, Brown, Tan, !!

[iarnrod]

Wrenneire, why exactly can't MM return the coaches to China? Surely, if the product is not up to scratch, MM is within his rights to return them, especially if the finished product differs in finish quality from the agreed pre prod specimens. Bachmann have in the past, returned items to the factory to be corrected, so it is not totally unheard of in the world of railway models.

 

Has MM yet acknowledged the issues with the finish on these coaches?

 

As much as I want to see 121 and A Class being produced by MM as well as many other future releases, if the accepted standard is going to be along the lines of the Supertrain MK2's, then resprays are going to be par for the course for future releases.

Edited January 29, 2015 by iarnrod

[UP6936]

However my main worry is that may affect MM's relationship with his manufacturer in China and therefore will it

ultimately affect the production of the 121's and A's?

 

I personally think that a return to Bachmann commissions would be the best option if its possible. The Baby GM is, I would say, the finest model in the MM stable. The MK2As, also excellent.

With reference to the multiple issues with these coaches, I'd put it this way; can you imagine the uproar if Hornby or Bachmann released MK2s with high windows or fuzzy lining?

[dave182]

Not justifying quality issues here, but there are big big supply chain problems in China at the moment in a number of areas. Falling demand for goods in general has lead to higher costs, loss of skilled labour, and a number of specialist manufacturers of the component parts going bust. (to name but only a few of the multitude of issues!) Hornby, for example, had a number of set back throughout the past 2 years as a direct result of this uncertain market, so I would assume the Paddy Murphy is small fish in the grand scheme of things. It's catch 22 for everyone: No Paddy Murphy, no rtr models of the Irish scene. With Paddy Murphy, but poor, unreliable pool of suppliers in China, probably gonna get some hic-ups along the way. I have been sourcing product from China for many years and with the best of intentions it is so hit and miss. When problems do occur it's very hard to remedy. Bond and insurance normally only cover transit. So you try and choose a supplier with the best reputation. But from time to time you are let down, and it is very infuriating!

 

So look, the solution as a 'customer' is quite simple. If you have bought these Mk2s and they are not up to scratch, return them to your supplier/shop and get a refund. Simple. You'll be disappointed but that's just how it is. Ensure you explain to the retailer why you are unhappy with the product so he can feed back to Paddy.

 

If you have bought them and are unhappy, but in a kind of 'I can live with it' way, then again make sure that you go back to your retailer and explain how you feel. Ask for a discount on your next purchase for example.

 

If you are over-the-moon happy with your Mk2s and they are not showing any flaws, then let your retailer know this too! Sometimes we forget to give praise when it's due.

 

The fact of the matter is this. Unfortunately there appears to be flaws. It's highly unlikely that they are going back to China. If after a month or 2 have passed and Paddy Murphy is looking at a pile of unsold stock or a load of returns from Retailers then he will have to take action of some sort. This would probably involve negotiating some kind of compensation or reduced final bill from his manufacturer, which in turn might lead to a reduction of the retail price, with the product being sold 'as is'. Disappointing all round, and will certainly put a question mark on future releases.

[RedRich]

I mentioned in post 47 that I had purchased 5 MM MK11 Aircons. I felt that as a buying customer I had an opinion. There are a couple of things to look at here. The 141-181 locos were manufactured by Bachmann for MM. This enabled PM to get a foot in the door and led to the first all new and newly branded MM product in the Craven coaches. There is no doubt that the 141-181 class locos and Craven coaches are at the very top end of market. I believe these models were produced in the same factory and the quality in both models show this. The 071 112 locos were also produced in the same factory and again the quality shows this.

 

The 201's I believe were produced in a different factory by a different manufacturer. I firmly believe that if they were produced in the same factory as the previous models they would have had full flush glazed windows. There were also some mistakes with the underframe gear on the 201 models that would not have made it into production if they were produced by the same company as the earlier models. The MK11 Aircons have their faults as has been attested to in this thread. There are little clues that point to the MK11's being produced by a different factory from the earlier models also. The B4 Bogies are overscale by a good bit. Place a Craven or Bachmann B4 next to an Aircon MK11 and it is plain to see. If they were produced at the original factory they would have used the same bogie as the Cravens as they would not have had to develop a new one.

 

Daves post is very valid as I am sure that PM must feel really let down over the quality issues. It begs the Question will he even produce any more MK11's in the later liveries, let alone any new loco models if they are to be manufactured with this company. I imagine that you would want a man on the floor in these factories on a regular if not daily basis to make sure everything is done right, and as we all know this is not possible.

 

I wanted a MK11 Aircon at the same level of accuracy and finish as the Cravens, it hasn't happened. I can or will have to live with the window problem as there isn't much you can do about it. An 071 and Aircons even into the IE period was always one of my favorite trains and that's why I eventually decided to support MM with this model. It's a shame , but there you are.

 

Rich,

[Blaine]

Lighten the mood - also a brief glimpse of the exterior....

 

[video=youtube;po_I7tFEL-8]

[Broithe]

Look at the price of that petrol...!!!

[Glenderg]

It seems clear having spent quite a bit of time with the coaches that something like this happened....

 

Boss Wun "Send these coaches out to the painting contractor, our job of manufacturing is done here, nice work guys - and just before christmas too!"

 

Out they go in a van to painter.

 

Boss Tuw "Ah, these yokes again. Shur we'll stick the rough mask on these, no need for the fine one - the two white stripes will hide a multitude"

 

*works away and completes them all

 

Boss Wun "um, there's no white stripes going on these"

 

Boss Tuw "I've an idea - paddy** will never notice"

 

Boss Wun "Good man, whack em on a boat"

 

I've no doubt but there will be a bunfight with the manufacturer after this and Wrenn is spot on that it might affect future relationships. How it's resolved is anyone's guess, but I'm sure it will.

 

I'm reliably informed that the Man himself is aware of these issues, and indeed this thread, and is upset by both.

[Railer]

Have to say I agree with all the recent posts. I would consider myself to have decent selection of MM products at this stage. I will still be buying the ST Mk2Ds despite their issues and intend to get them fixed up at a later date. I am very happy with the 141/181s and Cravens and with the 071s for the most part. The last batch of 201s were a disappointment with issues on all 4 locos. All locos had their numbers in the wrong font, they were not even close to the correct size as earlier releases. The cab side numbers were in the wrong position on the NIR locos and the livery was not right all around the sole bar and lazy effort with the silencer covers painted in blue. The Enterprise locos lack small livery details with logos that the 12 year old Lima locos featured. Yet they went and got detail like the white fillets on 230 correct.

 

This is in stark contrast to the factory that produced the 071/111s. Thay got detail like the unique 141 window frames on 112 correct and 082's name plate. Yes the 071s have issues with some locos still having their tablet catcher plates fitted and or in the wrong colour like on 078 and 085 but most of them are spot on.

 

PM needes to go back to the producers of the BGMs and Cravens and stay with them for any future releases as the 201s and Mk2s are really letting the side down. Paying €180 for a loco and then having to fix big livery errors that are clear as day to see even if you are standing well away from it are not on.

[jhb171achill]

I would say that Mr Murphy has done a huge service to the Irish modelling fraternity, and deserves great accolades for that. I am sure we all support him in his endeavours and I hope we will all continue to do so.

[Old Blarney]

I must say I agree with jhb171achill.

 

I have not seen the latest version of these coaches, thus, I cannot make comment on them. However, I have a substantial number of Murphy Models products all of which have given me, and many others hours of enjoyment.

 

Please remember this fact. Without the investment and risk Paddy Murphy has taken on our behalf, with his money, there would not be any Murphy Models. Our hobby, our enjoyment of his models, on our railways, would not exist.

 

Please put yourselves in his position and ask yourselves this simple question! Do I, for one moment, believe Mr Murphy would be willing to knowingly, yes knowingly, accept a product that is below the standards that all previous products have achieved.

 

My personal view and knowledge of the man is that he will be disappointed beyond belief at flaws in his products.

 

Paddy - good luck to you Sir, and Thank You.

[iarnrod]

I really don't get the hero worship that seems to surround MM.

 

MM seen a gap in the market for Irish models and decided to fill that gap by introducing models. He didn't do it on my 'behalf'. He did it to make money. He just happens to produce products that I have an interest in, and that I have spent thousands on to date.

 

''I'm reliably informed that the Man himself is aware of these issues, and indeed this thread, and is upset by both'' - I am glad to see that MM has recognised the issues with these coaches, but surprised to see that he would be upset by this thread as alluded to here. Any business needs to take comments and complaints from their customers seriously. If they don't, they will lose customers. There are many customers unhappy with these coaches, and that needs to be addressed by MM.

[Weshty]

Look at the price of that petrol...!!!

 

I remember that ad first time, loved it!

 

The petrol was fair expensive, remember that this was after the first oil crisis, with the second one round the corner.

 

Price on that video was 510 pence for 5.5 gallons. This equates to 19 pence a litre. And a 1976 pound has the same purchasing power as €10 euro today so cost per litre was effectively €1.90.

[Old Blarney]

Iarnrod,

 

 

I am not hero worshiping. I'm stating a fact.

 

No company or individual have produced, or commissioned, the proportion of Irish Railway Models that Murphy models have. I have spoken to major manufacturers over the years prior to Murphy models bringing their products to market. None of these were interested in producing genuine Irish RTR Models . Reason - Compared to their existing markets the Irish Market was too small, and not worth their effort. Based upon this fact, we have to conclude that Murphy Models have provided us with the product we wish to have, that these have been of the highest quality. Unfortunately, the latest batch of products (I have not seen these) would appear not to meet the past production standards. This is unfortunate, but it is not the end of the world.

 

High expectations that fail to be meet what is expected, will always lead to disappointment. Where the cost of the product to be purchased is perceived as expensive, and the quality and reputation of the manufacturer are both perceived as brand leaders, then the disappointment of a faulty or inferior purchase tends to annoy and disappoint. I am genuinely sorry for each of you who have received a product that disappoints you, but, you do have the option to refuse the item you have pre-ordered if it has a flaw or flaws in it.

If the fault is discovered after your purchase has been accepted, be it a car or a model railway coach you have the right to return to the supplier and ask that they replace or repair the item. If they will not do so then you insist they return your money to you. End of story.

 

Perhaps the solution to this saga is this. The retailers and Murphy models discuss the practicality of offering a range of solutions to any customer who has received a faulty coach, or is offered one! This could include any of the following. We will offer you a choice of

 

1) Re-spray the faulty areas

2)Weather the coach to hide the fault/s

3)Offer a discount on the product

4)Offer the customer a replacement

5) Apologise and thank the customer for their support when purchasing this product.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Old Blarney

[burnthebox]

I don't go with any kind of hero worship where PM is concerned, yes I'm very happy with models he has producted in the past, but take note, Fact no. 1 PM is a business man, he went into business producing something we, by coincidience have a great love of, Fact no. 2 As a businessman he makes profit, Fact no. 3 it was the customer who pointed out the mistakes / errors in the recent product, ( I have not heard of any comment / statement made by PM with regards this issues ). Now as I understand it with regard to consumer rights if you buy something & it's not what you paid for, you have the right in the first instance to a refund, or replacement, failing that you have the right to have the fault repaired. Yes PM has made us very happy with previous items of our interest, I wait to see what PM suggests what can be done to rectify these issues.

Edited January 30, 2015 by burnthebox

[Railer]

Glanderg could well be onto something on the possibility that this release was a bit of a rush job at factory level.

 

Just comparing the Galway Mk2s that have the more technically difficult livery bang on and fixed finer detail issues like door details. The release before that of the two IE standards fixed quality issues in the buffers and roof ends lifting off.

 

It's almost a case of two steps forward and one back.

[Garfield]

I really don't get the hero worship that seems to surround MM.

 

MM seen a gap in the market for Irish models and decided to fill that gap by introducing models. He didn't do it on my 'behalf'. He did it to make money. He just happens to produce products that I have an interest in, and that I have spent thousands on to date.

 

''I'm reliably informed that the Man himself is aware of these issues, and indeed this thread, and is upset by both'' - I am glad to see that MM has recognised the issues with these coaches, but surprised to see that he would be upset by this thread as alluded to here. Any business needs to take comments and complaints from their customers seriously. If they don't, they will lose customers. There are many customers unhappy with these coaches, and that needs to be addressed by MM.

 

Have you tried contacting him to find out if he intends to do anything?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Garfield

[iarnrod]

Have you tried contacting him to find out if he intends to do anything?

 

No.

[StevieB]

I've just trawled through 18 pages of both praise and complaint for the new MM mk2d's, and all I can say is 'you lucky devils' - across this side of the Irish Sea the retailers seem to have no idea of what is coming to them or when. My local retailer, Cheltenham Model Centre, got in on the act later than most and is not sure if they will be stocking any.

 

Stephen

[Old Blarney]

StevieB

 

I was unaware that Trevor and Rose of Cheltenham are Murphy Distributors. Good to know they have come-on-board.

[Georgeconna]

Saw them today for the 1st time, This time the cash stayed in the Pocket, It will go towards the APT-E with Sound instead.....