Murphy Models 121

[leslie10646]

B125 was still in full grey livery in 1964 - I posted a Lance King photo somewhere on this site a little while ago. While looking up photos to answer the question, I noted in 1963 double-headed BnT 141s on The Enterprise, by that time the A Class had gone green. A colourful railway, was CIE in the sixties!

[DJ Dangerous]

2 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

Yes that wound not be inaccurate the cravens would have been introduced in 1963/64 and the bubbles in batches in 1964 1965 and 1967 .

 

So those last 19 packs of grey bubbles would go great with 121 and 135!

 

https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/cement-bubbles/products/cie-grey-cement-wagon-multi-pack-i

 

[Warbonnet]

45 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

So those last 19 packs of grey bubbles would go great with 121 and 135!

 

https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/cement-bubbles/products/cie-grey-cement-wagon-multi-pack-i

 

I like the sales pitch

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So 121 and 135 could run with single-stripe Cravens and with grey Bubbles and be prototypically acurate?

Yes.

It will come as a relief for our younger readers to know that while latterly these locos almost inevitably ran in pairs, either with other 121s, or with 141s or 181s, initially they didn't, and I am personally unaware of ANY instance of a pair in grey, or even a grey one paired with anything else. It was really only in the early 70s that pairing became regular.

In initial times, i.e. when they were grey, a certain amount of nose-first running happened, but with turntables still a-plenty, they were able to turn them for return journeys almost anywhere.

As mentioned above, when introduced most passenger stock was still green, and you'll see pics of many a grey one with only green or (VERY dirty) silver vehicles behind them. Silver TPOs and "tin vans" of both heating and luggage variety did not all get the green livery - some did, some didn't; so both are appropriate to the 121-grey period. Naturally, these started being repainted black'n'tan soon after.

As mentioned above, a couple of grey 121s got red buffer beams, but I am not entirely sure that they were repainted grey too - I suspect that the red was just added.

In terms of WHEN repaints into black'n'tan took place, by 1964 some are in this livery - that's a very short time in traffic for the initial paint scheme. On the other hand, at least one was still grey in 1967.

For modellers of the period when the 121s were delivered, there are a lot of livery variations, and it's possible to stock a layout for that period prototypically with items of which hardly two are the same colour scheme.

121s - grey, with or without red buffer beams. Let's say we're doing 1961-65; black'n'tan too.

141s - black'n'tan, with no CIE "roundels" until late 60s.

181s - black'n'tan with roundels from new

"E" class - some black with white flash, some black'n'tan 

"G601" - green or black with white flash

"G611" - never green (despite preservation and some models!), but either black with white, or black'n'tan

"B113" - green, then black'n'full tan, then black with yellow end panels.

"B101" - None still silver, but either green, black with white flashes, or a unique livery which had full tan sides, but white line at the top on ENDS only. I'm pretty sure none got the yellow panel.

"C" - one or two still quite exceptionally filthy former silver. Most green, and all being gradually being repainted either black'n'tan (not many), black with white end flash, or same with yellow panel.

"A" - as per the "C"s above, but with several variations of side markings: some black ones had a large number on the side, as the ITG's A38 had in its last livery; or a CIE logo there, but with smaller loco numbers under the cab at each end.

Carriages - a handful still dirty silver, the majority green, but black'n'tan probably overtaking them numerically by 1965/6. One or two ex-GN types still were knocking about in either GNR brown or GNR dark blue and cream; one brown one did a stint in West Cork just before that system closed!

Wagons - everything grey. The brown livery was almost a decade away. Technically, the corrugated opens were the same "silver", but with grey-painted frames; they would never (in single-deck version) have painted bodies at all until they were doubled for beet 25 years later. Goods brake vans are just beginning to get the yellow and black "zebra stripes" on their duckets.

Older wooden wagons and vans at this stage are becoming very weathered. If modelling Northern Ireland, under the UTA they were so worn that proper identification of any actual "livery" was often all but impossible; just cover with weathering!

Cement bubbles were without exception grey when introduced, although the last ones built about 1969/70 or so entered traffic in orange, with grey chassis; peculiarly, the initial grey ones, unusually for ANY goods stock in Ireland, had a black chassis, as seen on the IRM model. 

Cravens were black'n'tan from new, and retained the same livery into the early 1990s. Thus, historically, the single-white-line Cravens are the only show in town for anything in the CIE era (up to 1987), and for a short time afterwards. Thus, no grey, green, silver black'n'tan loco ever ran with Cravens with the two white lines. (The first Craven I ever saw with the orange line above, and two white lines, was in May 1989, and it looked very newly painted).

Phew!

Hope that helps.

[flange lubricator]

I the early years of the bulk cement  they ran with brake van in the train.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306218

So you may need to order one of these 

 

[hexagon789]

3 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I am personally unaware of ANY instance of a pair in grey, or even a grey one paired with anything else. It was really only in the early 70s that pairing became regular.

I think, as has been stated before, they only began to be paired once they were fitted out first multiple working.

Before that you'd need a crew for each loco and with the extra cost for that presumably it was to be avoided unless unavoidable as it were, making it very rare or non-existent?

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, hexagon789 said:

I think, as has been stated before, they only began to be paired once they were fitted out first multiple working.

Before that you'd need a crew for each loco and with the extra cost for that presumably it was to be avoided unless unavoidable as it were, making it very rare or non-existent?

Correct.

Senior mentioned seeing one passing along the Royal Canal with an up Sligo nose first at one stage - one wonders why it hadn't been turned in Sligo.....

Some years ago, when I was on Downpatrick's management committee, and discussion over whether or not to ask IE for a 121, 141, or anything at all, was on the table. There was a slight majority in favour of asking for 124 or 134 (both of which were in traffic), but the loco dept. made that very point - that two of a crew were needed. On grounds of practicality, they were of course right. A 121 at Downpatrick could turn at the triangle, but in actual traffic, could run only in one direction - nose first out, and cab first return.

As a result, 146 was acquired instead, and it's going strong!

6 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

I the early years of the bulk cement  they ran with brake van in the train.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306218

So you may need to order one of these 

 

Yes, very much so.

Again, for our younger readers, ALL goods trains had to have a van at the end, no matter what wagons they were made up of.

[flange lubricator]

27 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

.

As mentioned above, a couple of grey 121s got red buffer beams, but I am not entirely sure that they were repainted grey too - I suspect that the red was just added.I

YES , some were  repainted in grey  .(IRRS journal no 36 Vol 7 Feb 1965 noted B135 being repainted in Grey ) the red buffer may have been an addition to B123 and B127 cant confirm this .

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 7:16 PM, flange lubricator said:

YES , they were repainted in grey with the addition of a red buffer beam .

Interesting - that might solve a mystery, which I will put out here. People bored by livery discussions, please change channel now!

All photos I have seen, plus what's planned, I believe, for the model, appears to indicate a very fine black line around the numbers on the ends and sides, and the "flying snail" on the ends.

However, I am almost certain that somewhere, some time, I either saw a real one or a good quality picture, which shows this lining as white, contrasting well against the grey and yellow. Now I know that this livery was used on tour buses, and maybe it was on those.... evidence eludes me, however. Maybe I was on the Kool-Aid that day.

The other mystery, of course, is why repaint even one in grey at all, given its poor wearing quality, it's non-standard nature, and the fact that by as early as 1964 they had started painting them black'n'tan, and given that they were delivered in grey and yellow, these colours would not routinely have been stocked by CIE!

Edited August 18, 2020 by jhb171achill

[BSGSV]

On 8/12/2020 at 7:16 PM, flange lubricator said:

YES , some were  repainted in grey  .(IRRS journal no 36 Vol 7 Feb 1965 noted B135 being repainted in Grey ) the red buffer may have been an addition to B123 and B127 cant confirm this .

 

 

B123 and B127 apparently had the red bufferbeams added by Grand Canal Street in 1961 and 1962 for Wexford Opera trains.

[patrick]

Posted yesterday.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrgVLa8cM6Y

[NIR]

1 hour ago, patrick said:

Posted yesterday.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrgVLa8cM6Y

Are those white tank wagons from 01:38 white cement bubbles, in 1964?

[Noel]

2 hours ago, NIR said:

Are those white tank wagons from 01:38 white cement bubbles, in 1964?

Looks like six of them in Ivory, but could that be as early as 1964. Thought the early bubbles were grey? Notice a rake of brake vans at the end of that formation with about 6 of them including an exGSWR one. Great clip. Was the 121 on the turn table powering the turntable itself using the connected hose line? Couldn't see any men pushing the usual turntable lever lever?

[DiveController]

7 hours ago, patrick said:

Posted yesterday.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrgVLa8cM6Y

OMG! The turntable at Amiens street was vacuum operated?

The vacuum line of the engine is hooked up to what seems to be the turntable and no sign of any manual labor happening that I can see.

Did I get that right?

[DiveController]

3 hours ago, Noel said:

Looks like six of them in Ivory, but could that be as early as 1964. Thought the early bubbles were grey?

 Was the 121 on the turn table powering the turntable itself using the connected hose line? Couldn't see any men pushing the usual turntable lever lever?

I'd say that is a trick of the light or they're in undercoat on a trial as they were turned out in '64

If you look at this B&W and put a sheet of paper over the lower part of the tanks you can convince yourself they're in ivory too

Sorry Noel, I started to watch the video , then posted, then read your post later but yes we're thinking along the same lines about the turntable here (if someone can verify, please)

Edited August 18, 2020 by DiveController

[jhb171achill]

9 minutes ago, DiveController said:

I'd say that is a trick of the light or they're in undercoat on a trial as they were turned out in '64

If you look at this B&W and put a sheet of paper over the lower part of the tanks you can convince yourself they're in ivory too

Sorry Noel, I started to watch the video , then posted, then read your post later but yes we're thinking along the same lines about the turntable here (if someone can verify, please)

Those are the original grey, with (unusually) black chassis. The orange came in the late sixties, with the final ones delivered in it.

The ivory came much later, in the 1980s - long after the last ones in grey were repainted orange.

Grey and ivory never ran together, and thus "black'n'tan" locomotives never hauled anything ivory. Also, loose-coupled goods brake vans were history before bubbles appeared in ivory.

6 hours ago, NIR said:

Are those white tank wagons from 01:38 white cement bubbles, in 1964?

That is one FASCINATING bit of film.....

Those "bubbles" appear to be in undercoat - maybe a test run. They entered traffic in standard wagon grey, albeit uniquely with black chassis.

[WRENNEIRE]

Very interesting about the turntable lads, good spot. New to me, never heard of a powered turntable

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Very interesting about the turntable lads, good spot. New to me, never heard of a powered turntable

Indeed; a totally new one to me too........... wonder were there any others?

[Galteemore]

They were fairly common on the Big Island, certainly at large MPDs,  but I’m not sure how many Hibernian examples there were. This is A1 ‘Marmion’ - c1949 (she was named in 1950) at Grantham. I think @David Holman is an ECML fan and may have more info than I....

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

Vacuum powered turntables fairly common this side of the water, especially at depots where big engines were involved. Notice the brake pipe on the Pacific is connected to the table, in effect sucking itself round. Another type involved cranking a handle on a box at one end of the table. A bit like opening sluice gates on a lock.

 Speaking of Lough's (spot the Segway here), BBC four repeated a lovely series last week, featuring Lough Erne through the seasons. Sadly, no mention of locomotives of that name...

[Lough Erne]

As David says vacuum tables were common in Britain, not so much over here - Connolly may be unique in this regard on the Island. The GNRI Connolly table today is electronically operated. For info the ex CSD table, now at whitehead was operated with winding handles and there are plans to either motorise it with electricity or potentially vacuum using a vacuum motor sourced by the late Sullivan Boomer. So there may yet be a second!, but I suspect electricity will win out as being more practical.

[PJR]

Just wondering will the decoders arrive for the 121 the same time as the first batch?

[WRENNEIRE]

2 different suppliers but hopefully the decoders will be here around the same time

[mphoey]

is there any updates re deliveries we know the greys are now first but what way are the others following now

original delivery list

124	Iarnród Éireann
129	Iarnród Éireann
134	Iarnród Éireann
121	CIE original grey
135	CIE original grey
125	CIE black and tan
131	CIE black and tan
126	CIE 'Supertrain
132	CIE 'Supertrain
127	Irish Rail
130	Irish Rail
133	Irish Rail

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by mphoey

[spudfan]

If you sign up to IRM, Rails of Sheffield or any supplier you will be notified when they come into stock. Just because you get notified does not mean you have to buy it. I am sure once IRM get stock in you will read about it here. There is not much point in getting possible dates as things can change.

For instance Rails of Sheffield have colour photos up of B121 (GREY),B125(BnT),130(IR),134 (IR) and B135 (GREY) which probably means they are the first versions they or anyone else will get. I know dates can be important from a budgeting point of view but until they land in stock I do not think anyone can give a definite date. They can give you estimates but that is not what you want.

[mphoey]

32 minutes ago, spudfan said:

If you sign up to IRM, Rails of Sheffield or any supplier you will be notified when they come into stock. Just because you get notified does not mean you have to buy it. I am sure once IRM get stock in you will read about it here. There is not much point in getting possible dates as things can change.

For instance Rails of Sheffield have colour photos up of B121 (GREY),B125(BnT),130(IR),134 (IR) and B135 (GREY) which probably means they are the first versions they or anyone else will get. I know dates can be important from a budgeting point of view but until they land in stock I do not think anyone can give a definite date. They can give you estimates but that is not what you want.

no more thinking of the order of delivery now as to has it changed much 

 

[Edo]

They're very very very very very very very very nearly here......................................patience people! - They will be here any week now!

Im assuming thats its the greys and B&Ts first and then we'll see a rough schedule for the rest...........

Must break the 121 class piggie bank and fix up with Marks Models............

 

[mphoey]

121 has arrived very impressed with it here the cie chairman and his family are accepting it onto the layout

[spudfan]

Are the hand rails along the side of the bonnet self coloured plastic?

[mphoey]

13 hours ago, spudfan said:

Are the hand rails along the side of the bonnet self coloured plastic?

yes the horizontal ones definatly are and are very flexible the uprights appear more solid but the small front ones can be bent too easily and damaged

[connollystn]

Looks like I'll be leaving mine in their' boxes.

[WRENNEIRE]

On 9/9/2020 at 9:09 PM, spudfan said:

Are the hand rails along the side of the bonnet self coloured plastic?

Coloured plastic was the best option because of the diameter of the rails, painted ones might have lost their paint due to handling etc. Dont think they take away from the model?

[spudfan]

9 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Coloured plastic was the best option because of the diameter of the rails, painted ones might have lost their paint due to handling etc. Dont think they take away from the model?

I am afraid judging by the photos the plastic rails just don't cut it for me.

[Warbonnet]

I think they look quite good, better than some of the American outline diesels which is high praise indeed. If they are that bothersome modellers can always replace them with brass wire.

[connollystn]

Think I'll wait for the Silver Fox version.