IRM A Class Now In Production! Here's why you should get your pre-orders in sooner than later...

[Ironroad]

I see it as lobbying and I don't see any harm in keeping hopes alive. Most certainly some of our wishes are probably unrealistic commercially but we have not seen outright dismissal of the suggestions being made and it would be a shame if the goose that laid the golden egg was forgotten entirely as I sometimes fear is the way things are going.

I think these are the figures posted by Stephen on RM Web quote;

"Generally if we can make 20-30k of it, if its a wagon, 15-20k of it if its a coach and at least 5-8k of it if its a loco, it's 'viable' in our eyes. "

The problem is that if John is right in his assessment above that the market is as small as 1,000 active modellers/collectors, that number is not necessarily representative of the interest that may exist for particular offerings because it is diluted by bias for particular periods.  

So I think the best we can hope for is items that spanned long periods of time that will sell in multiples.  A possibility here is the AEC DMUs that ran in various liveries from 1951 to the early '80's.

Running contrary to all of this was the production of the ballast plough. The probability is that few of us purchased more than a pair and they did take a while to sell out and that maybe a reason for hesitancy to go with such a unique item again. But given the fact that they are essential to completing a ballast train, did they contribute to sales of the ballast wagon?  So I don't think items that may have low volume demand can be entirely ruled out. It is noteworthy that Paddy Murphy seems to have had success in selling purely complementary items such as EGVs and Restaurant cars.

So is the glass half full or half empty??? 

 

 

 

[BosKonay]

If it helps, between both Irish and UK/Europe/row irm has 4106 registered customers. So the market is a bit bigger than you might think.

 

This forum has 1616 members, and it's only a 'subset' of the Irish modellers out there, or those that will buy something Irish for nostalgic reasons.

[DJ Dangerous]

1 hour ago, BosKonay said:

If it helps, between both Irish and UK/Europe/row irm has 4106 registered customers. So the market is a bit bigger than you might think.

 

This forum has 1616 members, and it's only a 'subset' of the Irish modellers out there, or those that will buy something Irish for nostalgic reasons.

 

I was wondering if the thousand-strong estimate was a little bit small.

Plus there are non-direct buyers who will buy at physical shops, at shows, or from trusted retailers and sellers.

There was a second-hand A30 for sale at Hattons a month or two back. Don't have a screenshot to hand, but I'm almost sure it sold for more than IRM are selling them for.

Hard to gauge but I'm sure it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that there are another thousand or more who will buy non-direct...

So, 15 x 071 variants at 504 units each, we buy two locos each and they're all sold!

Imagine if IRM sold via Hattons, Rails, Kernow etc. There'd be murder on here, as there wouldn't be enough availability for Irish buyers to even get one loco each. The market would quadruple overnight.

Edited July 3, 2022 by DJ Dangerous

[murphaph]

The NIR buffet, generator vans and driving trailers are super niche as well and share little with the GB mk2's. If those things are viable then most stuff is I'd say.

[Colin R]

May be a B or a C class loco would go down well, if you are looking to model a certain time period in the Irish scene, for what it is worth I happen to like the late 30's to early 60's period so I can run a mixture of both Steam and Diesel locos.

I am not sure as to what the last classes of Irish steam locos where, but if you looked at those that have made it into Preservation then that would be a start.

Colin 

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, Colin R said:

May be a B or a C class loco would go down well, if you are looking to model a certain time period in the Irish scene, for what it is worth I happen to like the late 30's to early 60's period so I can run a mixture of both Steam and Diesel locos.

I am not sure as to what the last classes of Irish steam locos where, but if you looked at those that have made it into Preservation then that would be a start.

Colin 

Agreed - a “C” fits well into the steam / diesel changeover period.

Thr last steam engines in use anywhere in Ireland were N I Railways’ “WT” class 2.6.4Ts, known as “Jeeps”. No. 4, one of the very last two (withdrawn 1970), is preserved at Whitehead.

The last in use in CIE (April 1963) were a mixed bag, mostly elderly 0.6.0 tender engines of GSWR (J15), and MGWR (J18/J19) origin, but a couple of “Woolwich” 2.6.0s and several old 4.4.0s of various origins also lasted to about 1962. Notable among the others were the last few 400 class 4.6.0s and a couple of the useful MGWR J26 0.6.0Ts.

The last GNR locos, two 0.6.0 goods engines, lasted until about 1965 or 1966, under the UTA. I saw them often.

[jhb171achill]

I should add that as far as I’m aware, all the locos used on the last beet campaign with steam (winter 1962/3) were J15s, and the last locos used on a CIE passenger service which was all steam (Loughrea, Ballinrobe, Ballaghaderreen) were the similar ex-MGWR J18 0.6.0s. Loughrea went diesel in April 1963. A couple of G2 2.4.0 tender locos were still on the Sligo line until almost the end of steam.

[Ironroad]

5 hours ago, BosKonay said:

If it helps, between both Irish and UK/Europe/row irm has 4106 registered customers. So the market is a bit bigger than you might think. .

That sheds a more positive light on matters and is encouraging. 

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

May be a B or a C class loco would go down well, if you are looking to model a certain time period in the Irish scene, for what it is worth I happen to like the late 30's to early 60's period so I can run a mixture of both Steam and Diesel locos.

Yes a C class is an obvious choice and they together with the AEC railcars that would open up lots of possibilities.

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Agreed - a “C” fits well into the steam / diesel changeover period.

Thr last steam engines in use anywhere in Ireland were N I Railways’ “WT” class 2.6.4Ts, known as “Jeeps”. No. 4, one of the very last two (withdrawn 1970), is preserved at Whitehead.

The last in use in CIE (April 1963) were a mixed bag, mostly elderly 0.6.0 tender engines of GSWR (J15), and MGWR (J18/J19) origin, but a couple of “Woolwich” 2.6.0s and several old 4.4.0s of various origins also lasted to about 1962. Notable among the others were the last few 400 class 4.6.0s and a couple of the useful MGWR J26 0.6.0Ts.

The last GNR locos, two 0.6.0 goods engines, lasted until about 1965 or 1966, under the UTA. I saw them often.

Honour compels me to mention the ex SLNC Z class tanks, 26 and 27, both of which passed to NIR stock - the only non-WT operational steam locos on NIR books - the GNR locos (UGs 48 and 49) stored at Grosvenor Road may have technically been in NIR stock, but they never ran as such AFAIK.

The two ‘Loughs’ were, incidentally, the last named locos to run on an Irish railway under company ownership and operation. 

This photo of ‘Lough Erne’, linked from Flickr, was taken under NIR ownership in 1969. 27 lasted almost till the very end of steam on NIR.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Galteemore

[Colin R]

26 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Honour compels me to mention the ex SLNC Z class tanks, 26 and 27, both of which passed to NIR stock - the only non-WT operational steam locos on NIR books - the GNR locos (UGs 48 and 49) stored at Grosvenor Road may have technically been in NIR stock, but they never ran as such AFAIK.

The two ‘Loughs’ were, incidentally, the last named locos to run on an Irish railway under company ownership and operation. 

This photo of ‘Lough Erne’, linked from Flickr, was taken under NIR ownership in 1969. 27 lasted almost till the very end of steam on NIR.

 

This photo makes me want to take up 7mm modelling. That said I have been thinking for a while about a Gauge 3 size garden layout (that is 13.5mm or 17/32inch to the foot scale) with an Irish gauge of 70.875mm or 2 3/4inches in old money. 

 

Colin Rainsbury

[meathdane]

Personally I'd love to see a 'C' class to accompany the 'A's we have already! 

If not and early DMU or railcar would be fantastic to have running alongside the A class!

[GSR 800]

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

May be a B or a C class loco would go down well, if you are looking to model a certain time period in the Irish scene, for what it is worth I happen to like the late 30's to early 60's period so I can run a mixture of both Steam and Diesel locos.

I am not sure as to what the last classes of Irish steam locos where, but if you looked at those that have made it into Preservation then that would be a start.

Colin 

Similar era to my own.

C class, AEC's, laminates and park royals plus their tin vans seem like the most sensible choice in terms of long lasting locomotives/railcars/rolling stock. The railcars are an odd one though, not sure what the viability threshold is for railcars (since its basically two power units minimum, add on coaches etc?) Perhaps the lads can enlighten us on that one.

Steam is a tough one, 00 works are doing the obvious choice with the J15s, doing preserved examples means you can run the RPSI mk2s with them but limited to those currently or recently in mainline service is down to GNR and NCC locos, which lack rtr rolling stock (other than CIE stock if IRM gets around to that) to run with outside their preserved examples. If IRM go with laminates or park royals then theres rolling stock for A and C class, AEC railcars, the 800s, J15s and 461 (and 462??) Choosing these because either long lasting or steam class with a preserved member(s). If they don't go for a GNR type I'd say the 800s would be the likely candidate. The Manors are just a test run for getting an Irish 4-6-0 lads 

At any rate, all rampant speculation, I'm probably totally wrong.

On 2/7/2022 at 12:42 PM, BosKonay said:

When we asked in the last customer survey of IRM customers, the feedback was a gentler pace, and more notice. 

So, unlike the Accurascale side, we will continue launching new tool IRM models when we are fully finished the research, development and CAD and ready to start tooling, which is about 60-70 days to a sample, about the same again for a decorated sample and at least the same again for assembly. So about a year, to 18 months of warning, give or take. 

Non new-tools, or accurascale crossovers, like Mk2b, 2c and others to come, will launch with a sample, or decorated sample, typically cutting lead times to under 12 months. 

Hope that helps, we do have so much underway

I think this is quite interesting. The brits seem to be more cautious with regular announcements especially without samples available, almost to a point of paranoia. Makes sense I suppose, given how they are often screwed with poor quality models from certain manufacturers..

Here I certainly appreciate the longer notice time. I may be planning to build x kit or x commission or x batch built type or scratchbuild something. I had been considering a silverfox A class a good while back, certainly was glad I got the notice to save the euros for the proper deal. 

 

[jhb171achill]

I would absolutely agree. The “A” class were VERY much worth the wait. Between those and the Accurascale stuff, they’ve brought both Irish AND British models to a whole new level.

[Andy Cundick]

I can confidently predict a ready to run  J15 having built 3 and with a half built one to finish,Andy.

[BosKonay]

We've actually a small announcement tomorrow

[Ironroad]

2 hours ago, GSR 800 said:

The railcars are an odd one though, not sure what the viability threshold is for railcars (since its basically two power units minimum, add on coaches etc?) Perhaps the lads can enlighten us on that one.

I think they are viable. Anyone interested will likely want more than one train and in the various liveries (GNR blue & cream, CIE green as well as black & tan.  They were ubiquitous for a long period on the network and ran in consists I believe of two up to eight. with all sorts of intermediate coaches including Park Royals and Laminates and were ultimately converted to run push pull with C class locos which are a natural complement to them. Assuming the availability of a C Class I'd even buy them in their final state on Dublin Suburban services with the blanked out cab windows.

I think there is a lot of mileage to be had over time from the tooling (more than a loco) and they broaden the market for earlier coaches for which there is probably a solid demand following the release of the A class. 

Ideal for offering as a four car trainset !!!!

 

[jhb171achill]

AEC cars have, in total, eight basic liveries, with a ninth and tenth as variations of two of them. Add the de-engined ones as NIR secondary stock in the mid-70s and you’ve ten variations.

I am led to understand that when commissioning a new model, the more liveries there are, the more viable the thing is.

Edited July 3, 2022 by jhb171achill

[iarnrod]

2 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We've actually a small announcement tomorrow

Modelu have finally scanned Fran and the rest of the IRM lads .

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We've actually a small announcement tomorrow

The breeding programme for live 4mm scale Fintona horses has been successful?

[iarnrod]

Small......far away!

Edited July 3, 2022 by iarnrod

[Mayner]

20 hours ago, Ironroad said:

  So I don't think items that may have low volume demand can be entirely ruled out. It is noteworthy that Paddy Murphy seems to have had success in selling purely complementary items such as EGVs and Restaurant cars.

Like the IRM focus on block train wagons the MM Supertrain EGVs and Restaurant cars may have been viable because customers were buying complete train sets as opposed to an individual coach or wagon.

If I recall correctly it took a long time for MM stock of Craven Coaches to completely sell out despite selling through both Irish & UK retail channels including Mark's, Hattons and Rails.

It would make sense to market an AEC railcar set as a complete train complete with intermediate coach and buffet car, the main snag is that CIE and GNR/NIR used completely different types of trailing car requiring different tooling for a typical CIE or GNR railcar set. CIE originally built conventional timber framed "Bredin MK2" Open Coaches and Buffet cars to run with its AEC railcar sets, The Park Royals and "Laminates" were introduced during the mid-late 50s, there were no matching Park Royal or Laminate Buffet cars.

While a steam or diesel loco with multiple livery versions is likely to sell out (A Blue Vs pretty please!!) as much from the collectors and modelers market, demand for individual coaches and wagons is less certain.

One of the more interesting pieces of feedback received after sending samples of JM Design rtr wagons to Irish Irish Model Railway Clubs was that a lot of people "could not see the point" of buying a prototypical accurate model of an Irish wagon when the could buy a similar UK wagon cheaper from Hornby, Bachmann or Dapol a fact that has been borne out to a degree by actual demand.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Like the IRM focus on block train wagons the MM Supertrain EGVs and Restaurant cars may have been viable because customers were buying complete train sets as opposed to an individual coach or wagon.

If I recall correctly it took a long time for MM stock of Craven Coaches to completely sell out despite selling through both Irish & UK retail channels including Mark's, Hattons and Rails.

It would make sense to market an AEC railcar set as a complete train complete with intermediate coach and buffet car, the main snag is that CIE and GNR/NIR used completely different types of trailing car requiring different tooling for a typical CIE or GNR railcar set. CIE originally built conventional timber framed "Bredin MK2" Open Coaches and Buffet cars to run with its AEC railcar sets, The Park Royals and "Laminates" were introduced during the mid-late 50s, there were no matching Park Royal or Laminate Buffet cars.

While a steam or diesel loco with multiple livery versions is likely to sell out (A Blue Vs pretty please!!) as much from the collectors and modelers market, demand for individual coaches and wagons is less certain.

One of the more interesting pieces of feedback received after sending samples of JM Design rtr wagons to Irish Irish Model Railway Clubs was that a lot of people "could not see the point" of buying a prototypical accurate model of an Irish wagon when the could buy a similar UK wagon cheaper from Hornby, Bachmann or Dapol a fact that has been borne out to a degree by actual demand.

Indeed - on several counts. So many Irish layouts with superb (and Irish) locos and coaches, but BR wagons repainted. Undeerstandable at one time, pre-SSM, pre-Provincial and pre-JM Design - but there are many Irish wagons available now.

On the subject of AEC railcars and their intermediates - yes, very many variations, but there are valuable multi-purpose crossovers. For example, a GNR K15 open third could be a loco-hauled option in six liveries (2 x GNR, 2 x CIE, 2 x UTA and 1 x NIR), and thus suitable for, say, a loco-hauled train on a layout based on the Derry Road. In black'n'tan, as some suvived to be coated in, ALL over CIE! A laminate is equally versatile, as is a Park Royal - RTR versions of all three badly needed.

My point is that while no laminate was ever seen in a GNR, UTA or NIR set, nor some GN types in CIE sets, there is enough alternative use for all of these vehicles as loco-hauled stock, thus fulfilling many purposes and thus boosting sales.

[Galteemore]

@Mayner’s comments are most interesting. One of the UK’s most respected 7mm  brass kit manufacturers makes impeccable kits of locos, with great emphasis on prototypical fidelity. However he only offers a generic range of 6 wheel coaches, arguing that when correctly painted up one such coach looks much like another ! This is a basic technique in military camouflage - the mind sees what it is led to see. If the loco is thoroughly faithful to the prototype, many modellers will happily run vaguely suitable items behind it - the mind can live with that illusion. 

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Galteemore

[Patrick Davey]

Interesting discussion folks!  So a 'small' announcement tomorrow....... I wonder is BK's use of the word 'small' a bit mischievous......

Or maybe it's an Irish narrow gauge announcement.....

Edited July 3, 2022 by Patrick Davey

[Ironroad]

And as they say Rome wasn't built in a day.  As I recall Murphy Models only produced the EGVs and Restaurant cars subsequent to the successful release of the coaches they were complementary to. I think the same logic can apply to the AEC railcars.  There are all sorts of options that could be taken with an initial release that could be expanded on over time.

It may be that the Cravens were slow to shift but that may have been related to the quantities produced and the market size at that time. Those were still pioneering days and the market has probably increased since then. It is worth noting that Murphy Models suggested a rerun depending on demand. So Paddy does not seem deterred.

[Mayner]

37 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

And as they say Rome wasn't built in a day.  As I recall Murphy Models only produced the EGVs and Restaurant cars subsequent to the successful release of the coaches they were complementary to. I think the same logic can apply to the AEC railcars.  There are all sorts of options that could be taken with an initial release that could be expanded on over time.

It may be that the Cravens were slow to shift but that may have been related to the quantities produced and the market size at that time. Those were still pioneering days and the market has probably increased since then. It is worth noting that Murphy Models suggested a rerun depending on demand. So Paddy does not seem deterred.

An AEC 3-4 car railcar set particularly the GNR version would make a very attractive "Pocket Express" train. The GNR tended to run its AEC cars in 4 cars sets on Enterprise Duties and as 3 car sets on suburban and secondary main line duties.

The relationship between commissioners such as Murphy Models and the Chinese factories has changed significantly since Kader/Bachmann produced the B141 with smaller minimum order quantities with a new generation of Chinese OEM manufacturers entering the model railway market. 

Needless to say the shift from selling through bricks and mortar retailers to on-line pre-orders/purchase has a significant impact on the cashflow situation during manufacture.

 

[Warbonnet]

13 hours ago, iarnrod said:

Modelu have finally scanned Fran and the rest of the IRM lads .

Sadly not enough plastic to print my ample frame! 

Of course what also helps us with new projects is selling out of current stock as we can reinvest the money in new tooling, so fill yer boots lads! https://irishrailwaymodels.com/collections/wagons/availability_in-stock?

Cheers!

Fran 

[DJ Dangerous]

15 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We've actually a small announcement tomorrow

Small announcement as in the character count of the announcement is small? Or the font is small? Or it's a small run? Or the product itself is small?

Because I've yet to see an IRM announcement that I consider small!

Green Dublin buses, a footbridge, CIE drivers, wagon loads or a Keg Liner re-run???

Or Deltics back in stock, maybe?

Edited July 4, 2022 by DJ Dangerous

[meathdane]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Or Deltics back in stock, maybe?

The long awaited Deltic in B'n'T!

[Niles]

31 minutes ago, meathdane said:

The long awaited Deltic in B'n'T!

The Deltic Tiger.

[spudfan]

17 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We've actually a small announcement tomorrow

IRM are to purchase HORNBY ....

[meathdane]

7 minutes ago, spudfan said:

IRM are to purchase HORNBY ....

Hornby wouldn't be so lucky!

[DJ Dangerous]

20 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We've actually a small announcement tomorrow

Small my arse!!!

[Patrick Davey]

1 hour ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Small my arse!!!

Smaller price anyway!

[DJ Dangerous]

Just now, Patrick Davey said:

Smaller price anyway!

Depends on how many I buy!