Hattons launch 'Irish' range of Genesis Coaches

[ttc0169]

Order placed,well done Hattons

[jhb171achill]

13 minutes ago, Old Blarney said:

Mr Beaumont,

CIE Liveried Coaches

Thank you, yet again, for your contributions on the vagaries of our Irish rolling stock, and for covering so thoroughly - the variety of consists, the era in which they ran, the locomotives that they were paired with, as well as the geographical lines they ended their days upon.

I placed my order this afternoon for these. I chose the four pack, individual 3rd, 2nd Class, composite, 3rd and 2nd Brake Vans in both liveries, and to finish things off, a couple of B&T Vans too.  All to remind me of my days when I watched and travelled on 1950s CIÉ, in a coach that had six wheels, a half compartment partition, and bounced its merry way from Sydney Parade to Killiney, without stopping at Booterstown Station.  Even better, a train from Harcourt Street to Bray and sighting GSR Maroon six-wheel coaches at Foxrock.  Perhaps, Hattons may consider a Great Southern version of these too.  Would this be unlikely as it is too far in the past?

I just hope I'm still alive and able to run my Model Railways when deliver of these coaches takes place. This is really a comment for you young McAllister!!

Oh, coach numbers and possible duplication. I believe, unless I misunderstood the conversation, I held with Hattons, the four pack numbers are not duplicated by any of the other coaches. 

Jonathan, again, thank you for all your contribution and time on this matter and others too.

 

White.

Thank you, David, much appreciated. yes, each one does have a different number. If they all sell well, who knows - I'd certainly be up for a GSR version!

[J-Mo Arts]

Me too, though lack of supporting locos for non-CIE will be an issue for convincing Hattons there are the sales there. Best get on with some steam, IRM!

Edited November 15, 2022 by J-Mo Arts

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Me too, though lack of supporting locos will be an issue for convincing Hattons there are the sales there. Best get on with some steam, IRM!

There actually are a surprising amount of matching locos right now, though some are currently "out of print";

1.  Bachmann "Woolwich" in grey, black or green (not the version with red lining)

2.  00 Works J15 - rumour is of another batch?

3.  JM Design 2.4.0 and 4.4.0 kits

4.  SSM J26 0.6.0T kit

5.  Silverfox C and B101 if they are silver or green (just repaint the grey roof they come with!)

6.  IRM "A" in silver or either green livery.

Of the above, all but (3) and (4) are reday to run; in the case of the Silverfox ones, can be had as a kit OR ready to run.

As a wild card, the Foynes branch, now much in the news, had a "G" with an old MGWR six-wheeled brake third for a while just before it closed. Different type of six-wheeler of course, but Rule 1 can apply! A jaunt from Foynes to Limerick behind a trundling G along that line in a rickety old wooden-seated MGWR six-wheeled brake third must have been quite an endurance test to the public.....but wouldn't WE love it, sore posterior quarters an'all?

[DiveController]

5 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

 

CIE Liveried Coaches

Oh, coach numbers and possible duplication. I believe, unless I misunderstood the conversation, I held with Hattons, the four pack numbers are not duplicated by any of the other coaches. 

 

Re footboards and numbering on the Genesis coaches (in general if I recall)

Detailing

Optional lower footboards Full brake rigging Finely detailed panelling Painted interiors Fully lined liveries to original company specifications Unique running numbers between single coaches and packs - carefully selected to fit with companies numbering systems

[David Holman]

Adapting Hatton's coaches is almost a throwback to modelling a generation or more ago. Hornby clerestories were a case in point for any pre grouping stock and no doubt there were many who learned useful skills in adapting them, so perhaps history will repeat itself?

 No bad thing, in my opinion. Current models are stunning compared to what came before, but there is nothing quite like making something your own to get real satisfaction. It may just be 're lettering or numbering, a bit of detail here or there, but suddenly it is yours, not just something out of a box.

 Will we get the basis of some steam outline locos to go with the six wheelers? It would be nice to think so!

Edited November 15, 2022 by David Holman

[Westcorkrailway]

I reckon that 4 pack will be worth silly money after a few years. A46 has over taken A39R as the most in demand A class and this is the best rolling stock for it 

[Patrick Davey]

This is great news, an order has been placed!

[Horsetan]

9 hours ago, Old Blarney said:

....I just hope I'm still alive and able to run my Model Railways when delivery of these coaches takes place. ...

There's an outside chance of your coaches turning up before my order for five Irish driving wheel axles is completed by Ultrascale

#eightmonths

[murphaph]

I have a "sinking feeling" that a 21mm conversion wouldn't be impossible by any means on these coaches, with the help of a bit of 3d printing. Assuming all 3 assemblies are removable as in the picture on this page....

https://albionyard.com/category/southern/

I am starting to wonder should I order the complete set now and sure if they prove too difficult to convert I can probably sell them on of hold onto them should I need a kidney some day.

[Westcorkrailway]

16 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

There's an outside chance of your coaches turning up before my order for five Irish driving wheel axles is completed by Ultrascale

#eightmonths

My silverfox railcars were 13 months can we get any higher ?

16 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I have a "sinking feeling" that a 21mm conversion wouldn't be impossible by any means on these coaches, with the help of a bit of 3d printing. Assuming all 3 assemblies are removable as in the picture on this page....

https://albionyard.com/category/southern/

I am starting to wonder should I order the complete set now and sure if they prove too difficult to convert I can probably sell them on of hold onto them should I need a kidney some day.

Perhaps buy the 4 pack plus a 5th coach for “experiments” so if you ruin it, you have the complete coaches to sell on? Unless you reckon there is no risk on damaging anything 

 

just seen that the steps are screwed into place instead of glued on. Fantastic, I hope that’s the case with these ones as they'd be Miles more solid

Edited November 15, 2022 by Westcorkrailway

[J-Mo Arts]

8 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

My silverfox railcars were 13 months can we get any higher ?

I'll raise you two years for an N-drive chassis! 

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

There actually are a surprising amount of matching locos right now, though some are currently "out of print";

1.  Bachmann "Woolwich" in grey, black or green (not the version with red lining)

2.  00 Works J15 - rumour is of another batch?

3.  JM Design 2.4.0 and 4.4.0 kits

4.  SSM J26 0.6.0T kit

5.  Silverfox C and B101 if they are silver or green (just repaint the grey roof they come with!)

6.  IRM "A" in silver or either green livery.

Of the above, all but (3) and (4) are reday to run; in the case of the Silverfox ones, can be had as a kit OR ready to run.

As a wild card, the Foynes branch, now much in the news, had a "G" with an old MGWR six-wheeled brake third for a while just before it closed. Different type of six-wheeler of course, but Rule 1 can apply! A jaunt from Foynes to Limerick behind a trundling G along that line in a rickety old wooden-seated MGWR six-wheeled brake third must have been quite an endurance test to the public.....but wouldn't WE love it, sore posterior quarters an'all?

Cor, a 4-4-0 in pre-grey livery with matching coaches, there would be a sight! 

[murphaph]

49 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

My silverfox railcars were 13 months can we get any higher ?

Perhaps buy the 4 pack plus a 5th coach for “experiments” so if you ruin it, you have the complete coaches to sell on? Unless you reckon there is no risk on damaging anything 

 

just seen that the steps are screwed into place instead of glued on. Fantastic, I hope that’s the case with these ones as they'd be Miles more solid

The "problem" is Cathal, if they are "fairly 21mm friendly" then I will regret not buying the whole lot! I gauge the risk of being stuck with them as fairly low but I gauge the risk of me not wanting to part with them even if they aren't 21mm candidates as very high 

And Hattons  Trunk means I don't even pay extra for throwing more and more of them into the order!

[Tullygrainey]

53 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

My silverfox railcars were 13 months can we get any higher ?

 

Still waiting for a Ruston & Hornsby 88DS from Hornby, 18 months

[Westcorkrailway]

3 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

Still waiting for a Ruston & Hornsby 88DS from Hornby, 18 months

I was so tempted to pick one of those up to make my GSRPS at halfway set…

 

seriously what’s up with those 

[Tullygrainey]

8 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I was so tempted to pick one of those up to make my GSRPS at halfway set…

 

seriously what’s up with those 

No idea. I ordered mine directly from Hornby on their website. I've just checked and the order is still outstanding with no indication of delivery times.

Alan

[Georgeconna]

18 hours ago, Niles said:

Should be there at the end of each description, presuming '453' etc is the running number anyway.

Should of meant on the 4 Pack there are no numbers but from reading seems different numbers are allocated for all the coaches.

[Westcorkrailway]

16 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

No idea. I ordered mine directly from Hornby on their website. I've just checked and the order is still outstanding with no indication of delivery times.

Alan

Rmweb claims that could be a 36 month wait….winter of 23 is the new release date….these Rustons were announced January 5th 2021….

Edited November 15, 2022 by Westcorkrailway

[amdaley]

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

I have a "sinking feeling" that a 21mm conversion wouldn't be impossible by any means on these coaches, with the help of a bit of 3d printing. Assuming all 3 assemblies are removable as in the picture on this page....

https://albionyard.com/category/southern/

I am starting to wonder should I order the complete set now and sure if they prove too difficult to convert I can probably sell them on of hold onto them should I need a kidney some day.

Only the center axle unit is screwed in.

[murphaph]

33 minutes ago, amdaley said:

Only the center axle unit is screwed in.

I am kind of relieved! Thanks for that  

[connollystn]

Wonder if this is going to be the only time Hatton's will dip their' toe into the Irish market?

[Westcorkrailway]

29 minutes ago, connollystn said:

Wonder if this is going to be the only time Hatton's will dip their' toe into the Irish market?

That’s almost entirely depends on how successful this run of coaches is 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, connollystn said:

Wonder if this is going to be the only time Hatton's will dip their' toe into the Irish market?

 

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

That’s almost entirely depends on how successful this run of coaches is 

 

 

Very much so. If they sell out, I am sure it would strengthen the case to at least be the first into the 1930s/40s livery era by doing a run of them in GSR maroon; but it needs to be borne in mind that Ireland is a small market, and but for the fact that their generic six-wheeled stock does, by coincidence, resemble GSWR stock, I doubt they'd set up the tooling and so on to do a special Irish design. No doubt this is why no MGWR six-wheelers have appeared anywhere - these are so utterly unlike anything British, even if heavily kitbashed, that they would have to be a dedicated specific tooling.

I imagine that Hattons have done their market research well, though - I can't see any manufacturer releasing something they weren't sure would sell. Here's hoping, overall!

[Flying Snail]

20 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

 

If they sell out, I am sure it would strengthen the case to at least be the first into the 1930s/40s livery era by doing a run of them in GSR maroon

Fingers crossed - it would be great to see them in GSR and GWSR liveries too. I've pre-ordered a few (well actually I've ordered a lot) to do my bit ... and no doubt Mrs. Snail will be delighted to hear that she's got my present for Christmas '23 sorted already! 

[Niles]

Indeed, it's probably worth bearing in mind that even for GB-outline 6 wheel stock there wasn't a sufficient market to make specific tooling for each individual railway, as opposed to this generic type, much as I'd like some chunky MGWR 6 wheelers.

 

 

[Horsetan]

3 hours ago, connollystn said:

Wonder if this is going to be the only time Hatton's will dip their' toe into the Irish market?

Their "O" gauge Gresley A3 and A4s don't seem to have sold like hot cakes. Wonder why that is....?  

[Westcorkrailway]

54 minutes ago, Niles said:

Indeed, it's probably worth bearing in mind that even for GB-outline 6 wheel stock there wasn't a sufficient market to make specific tooling for each individual railway, as opposed to this generic type, much as I'd like some chunky MGWR 6 wheelers.

 

 

Exactly what I would have said. There were 1 or 2 minds willing to wait for fully authentic versions and while it’s a great prospect, the English market can’t even have there own 6 wheelers. If you want fully authentic ones…kits exist

I wonder is there a market for undecorated ones for slightly cheaper, so people could paint up in GSR, or indeed any livery

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Westcorkrailway

[Noel]

14 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Exactly what I would have said. There were 1 or 2 minds wondering willing to wait for fully authentic versions and while it’s a great prospect, the English market can’t even have there own 6 wheelers. If you want fully authentic ones…kits exist

I wonder is there a market for undecorated ones for slightly cheaper, so people could paint up in GSR 

 

 

Yes they are green have six wheels and probably quack like a duck therefore they are ducks.  they pass the 1ft rule ok

[Galteemore]

And are in any case lacking the most distinctively Irish feature of all - 5’3” between the wheels! 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Galteemore

[Ironroad]

14 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I wonder is there a market for undecorated ones for slightly cheaper, so people could paint up in GSR 

Write to Hatton's and lobby them for this. When they've exhausted all liveries that they think are viable, they may be inclined to release undecorated ones.  It would extend use of their tooling.

[minister_for_hardship]

43 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Exactly what I would have said. There were 1 or 2 minds willing to wait for fully authentic versions and while it’s a great prospect, the English market can’t even have there own 6 wheelers. If you want fully authentic ones…kits exist

I wonder is there a market for undecorated ones for slightly cheaper, so people could paint up in GSR, or indeed any livery

 

 

Was thinking Departmental Grey as another option, for breakdown trains and travelling crew dormitories.

 

[Brendan8056]

I think Phil (Murphaph) is right, I am certainly going to buy some ,and hope 21mm is easy to do. At least the axle lengths are 26mm, unlike some other Irish ones which are 24.5 (HO scale) axle length, so in theory this should mean less work to move axle boxes out a bit.

   The only past "generic" range as good as this was the Grafar (Graham Farish) 00 gauge bogie coaches made in the 1970s and early 1980s. The suburban versions could be converted to British third rail EMUs or modified to look Irish, and the corridor ones looked very Southern Railway or GSWR. Well worth looking out for on the secondhand market.

Well done Hattons.

[Branchline121]

le epic

[Mayner]

Funnily enough I am about to start my own coach building project assembling and completing a rake of 6 SSM GSWR 6 wheelers on 21mm gauge in GSR livery which should keep me busy for a year or so!

Converting the Hattons Genesis coaches to Irish Board gauge could be challenging, the GNR ran into a similar problem and were unable to convert some of the ex-LNWR (bogie) coaches bought during the 1940s to 5'3" gauge because the solebars (chassis side frames) were too close together.

The Genesis Coaches are certainly 'close enough" for OO gauge the LNWR would certainly pass for the DNGR and the BR Crimson/LMS would probably pass for the GSR though they appear to have sold out on the initial order.

For those brave enough to model the pre-1900 scene those 4 wheelers would probably pass for WCIR or WDLR stock both companies apparently had the reputation of possessing the worst coaches in Ireland.

The West Cork had a thing about "shortie" (32') bogie coaches during the 1890s a time when the MGWR was still building 6 wheel coaches for main line use, so some Hattons 6w bodies on bogies are a must for a steam era West Cork Layout.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Funnily enough I am about to start my own coach building project assembling and completing a rake of 6 SSM GSWR 6 wheelers on 21mm gauge in GSR livery which should keep me busy for a year or so!

Converting the Hattons Genesis coaches to Irish Board gauge could be challenging, the GNR ran into a similar problem and were unable to convert some of the ex-LNWR (bogie) coaches bought during the 1940s to 5'3" gauge because the solebars (chassis frames) were too close together.

The Genesis Coaches are certainly 'close enough" for OO gauge the LNWR would certainly pass for the DNGR and the BR Crimson/LMS would probably pass for the GSR though they appear to have sold out on the initial order.

For those brave enough to model the pre-1900 scene those 4 wheelers would probably pass for WCIR or WDLR stock both companies apparently had the reputation of possessing the worst coaches in Ireland.

The West Cork had a thing about "shortie" (32') bogie coaches during the 1890s a time when the MGWR was still building 6 wheel coaches for main line use.

Agreed on all points bar one, if I may; Britain was building long wheelbase 4-wheelers of a similar (thus modern) body design well into the 1890s, by which time we had long stopped, and gone from 20-something foot chassis to 30 & 33ft.

The four wheelers we had were not only much shorter, but of a much more  primitive design. I will post details tomorrow.

Thus, in Irish terms, neither the Ratio GWR kits, nor the Hornby or Hattons 4-wheelers, would even approach the 3ft rule…… for Ireland.

While SSM (and, I think, Worsley), do DNGR kits, any generic LNWR six-wheeler (not four) would be very credible as a DNGR vehicle.

The Hattons Genesis vehicles are actually OK, proportion-wise, for DNGR stock.